publishing children's pictures in social media

AvonEnniskerry

Hi I am just wondering what the legal requirements of a school are in order to upload your child's picture to various sites.

Do they need to seek permission from the parent? Should this be obtained through an opt in or an opt out basis? Are they ok uploading images of school plays to publicly accessible sites?

For clarity I am talking about primary school aged children.

In my experience the polite thing to do would not be to run any social media pages.

BailMeOut

My kids school policy says that images or the kids maybe used online from time to time however names are never used and any parent can can opt out of if they want. They also make it very clear that anyone can request any images be removed at any time. To date nobody has ever opted out of made a request for an image to be removed and I know this as I manage the school website and social media.

Did you check you school policy to see what it says?

AndrewJRenko

AvonEnniskerry wrote: »

In my experience the polite thing to do would not be to run any social media pages.

Why would it be 'polite' to cut off a communications channel with parents, who often find it difficult to stay close to school events?

AvonEnniskerry

AndrewJRenko wrote:

Why would it be 'polite' to cut off a communications channel with parents, who often find it difficult to stay close to school events?

Why wouldn't you make it a private social media account. Only accessible by parents. And don't include childrens faces. Just their activities to keep you updated.

Mrs OBumble

AvonEnniskerry wrote: »

Why wouldn't you make it a private social media account. Only accessible by parents. And don't include childrens faces. Just their activities to keep you updated.

Because you also need to sell your school to prospective future parents too.

And if you do fundraising, ypu need to prove to sponsors that events actually happened.

Wheety

AvonEnniskerry wrote: »

Why wouldn't you make it a private social media account. Only accessible by parents. And don't include childrens faces. Just their activities to keep you updated.

What do you think will happen?

AndrewJRenko

AvonEnniskerry wrote: »

Why wouldn't you make it a private social media account. Only accessible by parents. And don't include childrens faces. Just their activities to keep you updated.

That's a fairly different suggestion to 'no social media', and yes, there may be an argument for restricting it to parents only. But to exclude childrens' faces is to exclude the joy and pleasure of participation. Many parents are delighted to see their children participating.


If you don't want your children to feature, then that is certainly your entitlement. But why would you want to exclude others who are happy to get involved?

BailMeOut

what is the difference between a photo on FB or Twitter of your kids at school being presented a cup after winning a football match and that same photo in a local newspaper which will also be online.

If you do not want your kids online just ask the school as they have to remove if you ask them as GDPR rules apply.

AvonEnniskerry

Noone has actually answered. Only given their opinions. Which I was trying to avoid. I specifically asked what are the legal requirements for the school. Should you have sign a consent or an opt out form. Is it deemed Suitable for a school to assume it'll be grand especially when the parent themselves refrain from posting on social media. Social media includes pictures being posted to the general media. What does gdpr mean for schools now as as far as I can see there have been no changes implemented?

BailMeOut

AvonEnniskerry wrote: »

Noone has actually answered. Only given their opinions. Which I was trying to avoid. I specifically asked what are the legal requirements for the school. Should you have sign a consent or an opt out form. Is it deemed Suitable for a school to assume it'll be grand especially when the parent themselves refrain from posting on social media. Social media includes pictures being posted to the general media. What does gdpr mean for schools now as as far as I can see there have been no changes implemented?

Schools need to abide to GDPR like anyone else.

At my kids school you need to opt-out rather than opt-in and its clearly noted in school handbook and policies. One could argue that they now need to contact every parent again and to make sure we all understand this.

Mrs OBumble

The legal requirements are the same for schools as anyone else.

The school may well have got consent when you signed the enrolment form.

AvonEnniskerry

Thank you guys. I have never signed or received any form requesting consent. Or anything that provides me the option to opt in/out. I have however written to the secretary and class teacher requesting she's left off social media. Which has been fine so far. But from talking to other parents no such form has been circulated. I also know it's not been consented through their policies as when I asked I was told that no I'd signed no such thing and they just hadn't gotten around to sending out a consent form yet (that was back at the start of September). Which is why i wanted to know their legal liabilities in such a circumstance.

Duffryman

I think that how GDPR applies in such a case is probably too new and too grey an area for anybody here to be able to give a definitive answer.

Can I ask a question about how you might feel about a similar type of situation? Say your child is taking part in a school play, or is on a school sports team. Another parents takes pics of a performance or of a match. These pics mainly show their own child, but your child is visible in them too. This other parent then posts those photos online. How would you feel about that?

AvonEnniskerry

Duffryman wrote:

Can I ask a question about how you might feel about a similar type of situation? Say your child is taking part in a school play, or is on a school sports team. Another parents takes pics of a performance or of a match. These pics mainly show their own child, but your child is visible in them too. This other parent then posts those photos online. How would you feel about that?

The other parent should blur out any faces in the background that they do not have permission to post. Personally I don't post any photos online of my own children or anyone elses. I think too much is shared these days and once it's out there it cannot be removed fully.

My personal belief is life is hard enough for children without others being given further ammunition to spark bullying. And you don't know who is looking at or screenshoting those pictures. You can never be too careful.

A child is not old enough to consent to their images being shared. I have no problem when they are older and understand the repurcussions of sharing images but until then I am not happy with it. Regardless of how harmless it might seem at the time of posting.

BailMeOut

What if your childs photo gets taken by local newspaper for winning some football match and ends up on front page of local paper and on all their social media sites?

Sheepdish1

BailMeOut wrote: »

what is the difference between a photo on FB or Twitter of your kids at school being presented a cup after winning a football match and that same photo in a local newspaper which will also be online.

If you do not want your kids online just ask the school as they have to remove if you ask them as GDPR rules apply.

Totally different in my opinion. It’s quite easy for complete strangers to get far more information from social media through profiles commenting, snooping , looking at family members, seeing houses places etc they visit.

I think it’s completely different to a photo in a news paper as it offers far more information

spurious

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

The legal requirements are the same for schools as anyone else.

The school may well have got consent when you signed the enrolment form.

This.
I know in my old school the photos/website issue was contained in the enrolment forms. It was always made clear to parents they could make sure their children were never photographed, but to my knowledge none of them took up that option. The photos were usually compressed out of existence for the website anyway and you would have been hard pushed to identify anyone for sure in the team photos. We did try when taking photos of activities to have backs of heads and the like rather than close ups.

AndrewJRenko

If the school doesn't have any policies, there might be a good opportunity to work with the school to put such policies in place. Maybe you could work through the Parents Association to make this happen, that would be a great constructive response.

Sheepdish1

I had to sign a consent form to whether or not photo could be taken - yes/ no

On same form it asked if any of these photos could be used online yes/ no

I replied no to the online usage as I don’t post pictures of my kids on internet and nor do I allow other people to.

Sheepdish1

I don’t think schools can take photos of your kids full stop without consent.

I would even say if photos were being taken for non online use, such as teacher training PowerPoint presentations, that photos would likely be non identifying photos *unless* signed permission by parents was given for faces to be used.

Robbo

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

The legal requirements are the same for schools as anyone else.

The school may well have got consent when you signed the enrolment form.

spurious wrote: »

This.
I know in my old school the photos/website issue was contained in the enrolment forms. It was always made clear to parents they could make sure their children were never photographed, but to my knowledge none of them took up that option. The photos were usually compressed out of existence for the website anyway and you would have been hard pushed to identify anyone for sure in the team photos. We did try when taking photos of activities to have backs of heads and the like rather than close ups.

Bundling this purported consent into enrolment in the school would more than likely mean that this is not a validly obtained consent.

AndrewJRenko

Robbo wrote: »

Bundling this purported consent into enrolment in the school would more than likely mean that this is not a validly obtained consent.

Why?

Duffryman

AvonEnniskerry wrote: »

The other parent should blur out any faces in the background that they do not have permission to post. Personally I don't post any photos online of my own children or anyone elses. I think too much is shared these days and once it's out there it cannot be removed fully.

My personal belief is life is hard enough for children without others being given further ammunition to spark bullying. And you don't know who is looking at or screenshoting those pictures. You can never be too careful.

A child is not old enough to consent to their images being shared. I have no problem when they are older and understand the repurcussions of sharing images but until then I am not happy with it. Regardless of how harmless it might seem at the time of posting.

Well, thanks for the answer. Can I ask another one? Or more accurately, repeat a question that somebody else asked, but that you don't seem to have answered yet....what exactly are you afraid of?

My children are aged 6 and 9 and their photos have been shared on the likes of Facebook for years now, by their school, GAA and soccer club, and others, without my wife or I ever having a problem with it, or anything untoward happening as a result.

From another perspective, I've run the GAA club website and Facebook page ever since they were set up, and have put online hundreds if not thousands of picture from matches and other club events (days away, Fun Days, fundraisers, etc.), without any parent ever expressing concern that their child was in them. On the other hand, I've had a few saying they were disappointed that their child wasn't in a particular team shot (for example) because they were away that day.

Obviously you're entitled to your view but it would seem that your view is very much the minority one, and I can't help but wonder just what it is that you're so concerned about?

RayCun

The child protection course I went on with my club a few years ago said kids shouldn't be identified online. You could put up a photo of the team, for example, but not caption it with their names.

AvonEnniskerry

Sheepdish1 wrote:

Totally different in my opinion. It’s quite easy for complete strangers to get far more information from social media through profiles commenting, snooping , looking at family members, seeing houses places etc they visit.

I agree with this. But for the purpose of schools I don't differentiate. I find it complicates things if I say yes to that photo but no to those. Much better to just say a blanket no and then there's no room for error or mistake.

AvonEnniskerry

Duffryman wrote:

Well, thanks for the answer. Can I ask another one? Or more accurately, repeat a question that somebody else asked, but that you don't seem to have answered yet....what exactly are you afraid of?

Once any image is released online there is no taking it back. The damage is done. Firstly I want to highlight this to my children. Secondly you don't know who will appear in yours or your loved ones lives in the future that may pose a threat or a danger to your family.

For instance I was in a closed group discussion forum some time ago. I disagreed with a fella on it. He turned very nasty. Pming me saying he'd come after me and my kids. (I had previously mentioned I'd kids). A quick Google search showed he was local to the area and had previously been convicted of a violent crime. Had my Facebook not been locked down he would have seen where I lived. My kids pictures. And any other information I had cared to share to the world.

For me. It's nobodies business what me or my children do on a Saturday, where they go to school. What clubs they attend and when.

Mrs OBumble

Sheepdish1 wrote: »

I don’t think schools can take photos of your kids full stop without consent.

I would even say if photos were being taken for non online use, such as teacher training PowerPoint presentations, that photos would likely be non identifying photos *unless* signed permission by parents was given for faces to be used.

Schools routinely collect all sorts of data about student activity and achievement: this ranges from simple attendance on the roll, to running records of performance during tasks, to marks on tests, to written commentary on report cards, to photos of activities and pieces of work.

Teachers should be using this data to inform their practise, and to demonstrate to auditors / inspectors (whatever they're called here) what the school is doing.

If they want to use it for other purposes, they probably need to get specific consent for that. But not for straight-up educational purposes.

AvonEnniskerry wrote: »

The other parent should blur out any faces in the background that they do not have permission to post. ....

My personal belief is life is hard enough for children without others being given further ammunition to spark bullying. And you don't know who is looking at or screenshoting those pictures. You can never be too careful.

That is your belief. But AFAIK the law in Ireland doesn't support you in this. I suspect you'll struggle to get other parents to co-operate with your wishes, and I think there's a lot of potential for your kids to resent it later on when they realise what memories they are not part of ("everybody else is in the school photos, but we weren't allowed to be")

TheQuietFella

AvonEnniskerry wrote: »

Once any image is released online there is no taking it back. The damage is done. Firstly I want to highlight this to my children. Secondly you don't know who will appear in yours or your loved ones lives in the future that may pose a threat or a danger to your family.

For instance I was in a closed group discussion forum some time ago. I disagreed with a fella on it. He turned very nasty. Pming me saying he'd come after me and my kids. (I had previously mentioned I'd kids). A quick Google search showed he was local to the area and had previously been convicted of a violent crime. Had my Facebook not been locked down he would have seen where I lived. My kids pictures. And any other information I had cared to share to the world.

For me. It's nobodies business what me or my children do on a Saturday, where they go to school. What clubs they attend and when.

I think you're just paranoid!

Mod
Be polite here. Many have genuine well-founded concerns about these matters

Achasanai

Where I work (not school or child related, mind) new GDPR regulations meant a strict opt-in policy with regards to any data we have on people unless it is essential to how we run our service. Anything superfluous to this would mean getting users to fill in fairly detailed forms explicitly stating their acceptance (of whatever).


I'm surprised that this doesn't seem to be the case, particularly in an area that is even more sensitive than the one where I work.

Charmeleon

Sheepdish1 wrote: »

Totally different in my opinion. It’s quite easy for complete strangers to get far more information from social media through profiles commenting, snooping , looking at family members, seeing houses places etc they visit.

I think it’s completely different to a photo in a news paper as it offers far more information

You can’t get any additional information from a Facebook photo apart from what you can see and what is in the text. Unless parents or children approve a tag it can’t be linked directly back to their profile. It’s pretty much the same as a newspaper photo.

Robbo

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Why?

It can hardly have been freely given if enrolment is contingent on giving the consent.

This isn't a GDPR thing either, it's a long standing principle.

AndrewJRenko

Robbo wrote: »

It can hardly have been freely given if enrolment is contingent on giving the consent.

This isn't a GDPR thing either, it's a long standing principle.

Why would you think that enrollment is contingent on giving consent?

Generally, it is one of several questions asked at enrollment stage, but enrollment is not contingent on any of these. It just happens to be the most convenient stage to ask the questions.

bringupthebook

My understanding under GDPR is that this should be an opt in rather than opt out situation and one that is clearly outlined. We were sent a separate form to cover photography at events etc. it was not as part of any other form nor should it be.

AndrewJRenko

bringupthebook wrote: »

it was not as part of any other form nor should it be.

Why not?

Vetch

bringupthebook wrote: »

My understanding under GDPR is that this should be an opt in rather than opt out situation and one that is clearly outlined. We were sent a separate form to cover photography at events etc. it was not as part of any other form nor should it be.

It's perfectly legal to incorporate a consent mechanism in a document that covers other matters. The consent element just has to be clear and distinguishable. This applies https://gdpr-info.eu/art-7-gdpr/

bringupthebook

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Why not?

Because it is an important issue that requires an action & not an assumed response.

bringupthebook

Vetch wrote: »

It's perfectly legal to incorporate a consent mechanism in a document that covers other matters. The consent element just has to be clear and distinguishable. This applies https://gdpr-info.eu/art-7-gdpr/

I appreciate that it is legal. My reply was more in response to it being part of enrollment. I should have been clearer.

AndrewJRenko

bringupthebook wrote: »

Because it is an important issue that requires an action & not an assumed response.

Enrolement is an important issue that requires responses to a range of issues, including privacy issues.

AvonEnniskerry

Funny, I think there's a lot of potential for kids to resent parents posting so many photos online. Again my opinion.

However my question was about whether it was legal for a school to assume photos were ok to post on open social media sites. Or had they any legal obligations. And I do see that you've answered this. So thank you. I didn't particularly want to post my personal opinions or to be judged on them which is why the original question remained so open. I chose to respond to those posters as they genuinely seemed to want to know other thought processes or options in this case.

stinkbomb

ALmost all schools, clubs etc will have a policy, but that doesn't mean there are specific laws. There is a simple fact many do not understand: you do no own your own image, or your childrens. Anyone can take a photo of you or them any time they like (in public that is, privacy laws are a different matter). Anyone can upload that image online (for non-commercial purposes). You don't control your own image.

hullaballoo

I'm not sure that's correct these days.

I think we'll start seeing this come through the DPC and courts in the next few years.

I think you do own your own image.

stinkbomb

You literally do not. CCTV everywhere you go for one thing. The rights of anyone to take photos in public as they choose. In Irish law there is no legal right to use of or control of your image outside of commercial applications.

I can take a photo of you in the street whether you give me permission or not, and I am the owner of that photo and your image in that instance. You have no right to it (again in non-commercial terms), unless you can show you had a reasonable expectation of privacy.

by8auj6csd3ioq

I'm not sure that's correct these days.

I think we'll start seeing this come through the DPC and courts in the next few years.

I think you do own your own image.

Does that mean you cannot be photographed without consent even in the public street?

Recently people who are in the background of news reports when people are leaving court are being pixelated, is that GDPR?

Mrs OBumble

hullaballoo wrote: »

I'm not sure that's correct these days.

I think we'll start seeing this come through the DPC and courts in the next few years.

I think you do own your own image.

Links?

GM228

hullaballoo wrote: »

I'm not sure that's correct these days.

I think we'll start seeing this come through the DPC and courts in the next few years.

I think you do own your own image.

Such a position may be at odds with the intellectual property rights afforded to the photographer under copyright as afforded for by the Copyright and Related Rights Act 2000 or the provisions of the EUs Copyright Directive (Directive 2001/29/EC) and ECJ case law.

Photographs are an intellectual creation of the photographer, not of the subject of the photo.

Reati

TheQuietFella wrote: »

I think you're just paranoid!

Let’s put your paranoia to the test so to speak.

Put a link here to pictures of your kids (if you have any kids) on Facebook? If not, shur post links to your social media accounts here.

RayCun

Reati wrote: »

Let’s put your paranoia to the test so to speak.

Put a link here to pictures of your kids (if you have any kids) on Facebook? If not, shur post links to your social media accounts here.

I put pictures of my kids on Facebook so my friends and family can see them. Why would I bother putting them up here? Are you daring me?

Reati

RayCun wrote: »

I put pictures of my kids on Facebook so my friends and family can see them. Why would I bother putting them up here? Are you daring me?

Read it again. Was it addressed to you? :rolleyes:

RayCun

Reati wrote: »

Read it again. Was it addressed to you? :rolleyes:

I agree with the other poster. (Who wasn't talking to you, as far as I can see)

melekalikimaka

Children have as little right to privacy as adults sadly and in ireland privacy isn't even legally defined. Parents can throw toys out of prams all they want but in reality schools hold the cards not them

GM228

melekalikimaka wrote: »

Children have as little right to privacy as adults sadly and in ireland privacy isn't even legally defined. Parents can throw toys out of prams all they want but in reality schools hold the cards not them

All people in the state (children and adults) have privacy rights under the European Convention on Human Rights and as an unenumerated right under the constitution.

You are correct "privacy" is not defined in Irish law, case law has dealt with it in different ways and not provided a concise definition, however I have always liked Judge Thomas Cooley's simple definition from his Treatise on the Law of Torts or the Wrongs Which Arise Independent of Contract (1st ed. 1879), he described privacy as a “personal immunity - the right of one's person may be said to be a right of complete immunity; the right to be alone". Generally shortened and restated as the simple "right to be left alone".

Anyone who thinks there is no right to privacy, even in a public place need to think again, the UK House of Lords Campbell vs Mirror Group Newspapers Ltd [2004] UKHL 22 case, the European Court of Human Rights Von Hannover vs Germany (No. 59320/00) ECHR 2004 case and the three UK Douglas vs Hello - [2001] 2 WLR 992, [2003] EWHC 786 and EWCA Civ 595 cases as well as the Doonbeg case here highlight how wrong people's perceptions of the rights of privacy (in particular in public) are.