Cities around the world that are reducing car access

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120067053#Comment_120067053

I will be driving a horse-cab by 2040. €200 to go from O'Connell Street to Grafton st (inflation). Don't feed the horse please.

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120068618#Comment_120068618

I don't remember what the perception at the time was - but putting a tram on the old closed line to Harcourt St is just running to stand still surely?

OEP

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120086023#Comment_120086023

Yes, good car sharing apps make a huge difference. I used to use GoCar here but what's annoying is you always have to return the car to the same location, which makes it expensive. Zipcar in London is much better.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120086237#Comment_120086237

Having GoCar within 1km of the house was a big factor in dumping the car for me. the set location made it great from a consistency POV, but I take your point

Sam Russell

GoCar is certainly a good system for divesting the car. Returning it to the same place is a drawback, but if there were more of them, they could, perhaps, allow more flexibilities in this - not sure how this would work - cars are not easy to relocate.

The Dublin Bikes does have a similar problem with this and has to move bikes from one location to another to balance demand.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120085946#Comment_120085946

Well I may be misquoting or misunderstanding you, but I understood your original point to be that "life is much better with a car" in a universal kind of way, but to be fair you followed up by saying yourself, that's not a universal experience, which was my only point, so I think we're of the same mindset to be honest.

If go cars etc were made more convenient for me (closer to my home) I'd definitely consider getting rid of my car. I have no interest in car ownership to be honest, I only own one because I need to, and I suspect I probably drive it a lot more than I need to, just because I already own it!

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120086577#Comment_120086577

I suspect I probably drive it a lot more than I need to, just because I already own it!

I was 100% the same. Since I got rid of the car I think nothing of walking or cycling miles now, wouldn't even blink at the thought of it and the only weather I wouldn't do it in is when there's ice, otherwise weather doesn't factor into my decision process anymore.

Previously I would have hesitated running out to the car if it was raining.

My curiosity was peaked on the topic of gocar so I pulled up my history from the site.

The amount of usage and the cost speaks for itself. What its cost me in 27 months is what I would have paid in 3.5 months owning a car

Hands down one of the best financial decisions I've ever made, whatever about anything else

OEP

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120086577#Comment_120086577

I live in Dublin but I'm from down country and travel down a reasonable amount. In Dublin, the only thing I use the car for is going to the driving range and doing the shopping. Otherwise I cycle everywhere. I didn't have a car for a long time and used to rent cars, get buses etc.. but I got very tired of that.

My journey home to my parents is well serviced by public transport but that still involves a 10 minute walk, 20 minute green line luas, 10 minutes red line, 2.5 hour train and then I'd get collected but could get another 15 minute bus. Its about 1 hour 50 minutes to drive. The convenience of being able to hop in a car and go wherever I want, whenever I want is worth the expense. And for me, that would apply no matter the quality of public transport....hence why I brought up Switzerland. So life is better for me, and I'm sure I'm not the only one. Obviously it's circumstance dependent.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120087584#Comment_120087584

And would your journeys to where you grew up, to the driving range or to do the shopping be effected by the pedestrianisation of a few city centre streets like Liffey Street?

This thread is about reducing car access in cities, there is no suggestion for an outright ban on cars. Even if there was to be significant restrictions on cars entering city centres, there would still be approx. 100,000km of roads for people to drive on. The vast majority of journeys would still be able to be made by car as currently possible. Talking about how great cars are or some moral imperative is just a red herring, its arguing against something nobody has suggested.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120087584#Comment_120087584

Which is fine, but its tangential to the real discussion of the thread and the movement, which is to severely restrict urban use of cars.

For what its worth I have lived in Switzerland for 10 years and never owned a car in that time period and certainly don't regret it.

OEP

Apologies for it ending up going down a different route but a poster was saying that life is better without cars (didn't specify whether urban or more general use), and I disagree with that.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120088633#Comment_120088633

Life is better without cars in an urban setting is something that I could definitely agree with. In general, no, I wouldn't agree but I also think we have sacrificed investment in public transport alternatives for almost limitless spending on car-centric models for far too long. Life almost certainly could be better without the car-centric development focus of the last 70 years.

magicbastarder

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/bike-blog/2023/jan/10/why-do-traffic-reduction-schemes-attract-so-many-conspiracy-theories?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

..

Yellow_Fern

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120085151#Comment_120085151

Have you evidence that most Irish people dont want cars? I am sure most people want short commutes, but perhaps most want both good public transport and cars.

Sam Russell

Has anyone tried driving in Oxford?

Most of the city is owned by medieval University Colleges that jealously guard their extensive property portfolios and have prevented much normal urban development. It is nearly impossible to use the centre of Oxford as a through route and using the excellent bypass is the best option. Plus they have an excellent P&R system with plentiful feeder buses. Parking within the city is hard to find and expensive.

Now it is twenty years since I last visited Oxford, but I doubt it has changed much.

The right-wing conspiratorial wackos jump on any likely issue.

Thelonious Monk

I actually drove there and parked in the centre last year, and it wasn't terrible to navigate or find a space, was a Sunday though. I did notice that it's pretty carcentric, me not helping matters either.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120098127#Comment_120098127

I didn't say that people don't want them. I simply said that they need them more than they want them. Of course there will always be an element of want involved.

However, from your question, are you suggesting that most people happily choose to spend a large proportion of their income on cars? Are you seriously thinking that the prevalent two-car culture is based mainly on want? My point was that ownership is based more on need, not want and this was because of public policies for decades - sure just think of the political donations and rezoning of the 60s, 70s and 80s.

People don't have a choice. A car is almost a necessity for many and as I said this is down to crap public policies creating a car dependant culture. Even in urban areas where there is public transport, people still make the choice to drive because public transport has been allowed to take second place (and I'm conscious this is slowly changing). People feel the need to drive but international evidence shows that they will take public transport (or other options) if they are feasible.

We've become more and more American with our shopping malls and retail parks that are designed for those that drive. Even the five large local supermarkets near me have massive car parks but nowhere secure to lock a bike. The massive increase in retail centres has created the situation that most rural towns have little to offer as most places have closed.

Look at the prevalence of one-off housing. We"ve allowed these McMansions blight the landscape all over the country, yet all have boxed themselves into their own car dependence. We should not have allowed this sporadic development.

Most people would prefer not to live miles away from family. Most people would prefer not to have long commutes to work. Most people would prefer shorter travelling times to local services. They are not being given those choices though. This is why people are commuting to Dublin from Longford, Cavan, Nenagh and so on by car. It costs them money. It costs them family time.

Were reaping exactly what we've sowed!

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120099184#Comment_120099184

Its admittedly a good 12 years since I lived there, but it has terrible traffic and quite a good bit of traffic flow on the main arteries. What it doesn't really have is any rat running.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120099705#Comment_120099705

Also a car is so standard that I don't think many people actually put much thought into how much it is costing them.

Sam Russell

I think most people think - 'After I have paid for the car, (or borrowed for the car), paid to park it, paid the motor tax, paid the insurance, paid for the annual maintenance and NCT (requiring a day off work), then I might as well use it, because it is just €1 a km for the juice, and I can go where I want when I want - providing there is not a lot of traffic about, because I hate traffic jams.'

Yellow_Fern

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120099705#Comment_120099705

It is not easy to prove either way, but it is notable that car ownership is much higher in Germany and the Netherlands than Ireland despite the great public transport. I lived in Germany and I loved using Germany public transport, but I missed a lot without a car. A lot and I lived in a large city. A car is much more important in rural Germany. In Germany they have car orientated shopping centres and retail parks too. Ideally it is something for the weekends.

Yellow_Fern

>There are significant societal impacts also. Roads can separate an area. Motorways will have the effect of cutting people off from what weree neighbours. Within urban areas, dial carriageways and alrge wide roads segregate communities. It has gotten to the point in Ireland and elsewhere that it is regarded as unsafe to allow children play outside on the streets. Many children remain indoors which contributes to childhood obesity. Similarly, because roads are regarded as too dangerous, most parents won't let their kids cycle to school. Many parents won't even let their kids walk. You also see large numbers of parents driving their kids to and from school.

Arguments against roads don’t really resonate with me as you need roads for buses and freight.

>Within a city, I'm definitely faster by bike.

You said your 12km commute is faster with a bike but I don’t think so outside rush hour. Id love of there was a good spatial analysis of this by the CSO or someone else because I find it hard to believe that in most areas of the country, rural or urban, a 12km journey is quicker on bike.

However, to pick you up on your "extending peoples lives" - over-reliance on cars to travel also contributes towards health issues which can reduce people's lives.

>A moral imperitave? What utter crap!

Nope. There is a moral imperative for cars. That doesn’t mean I only appreciate cars. I am passionately for cycling, buses and trains too. I just hate the dishonesty here that cars are bad. Cars have made life much better. Cycling is more dangerous than car use and that isn’t a new thing. Cycling used to be a lot more dangerous, so cycling would not become risk free if cars were removed. In the 1930s US, there was twice as many cycling deaths per capita as present despite a vastly lower ownership rate of cars.

As for the balancing of road space - any reallocation of road space has been difficult with people in cars not being able to see past the windscreen view of the world. They have grudgingly allowed to share space despite the obvious effect of reducting the numbers of people driving

The balance is shifting though, especially in cities with more and more progressive societies allocating more and more funding towards sustainable travel - public transit, active travel, etc.

Again funding for roads is funding for buses.

Progressivism isn’t a good thing. It is a toxic ideology.

magicbastarder

You said your 12km commute is faster with a bike but I don’t think so outside rush hour. Id love of there was a good spatial analysis of this by the CSO or someone else because I find it hard to believe that in most areas of the country, rural or urban, a 12km journey is quicker on bike.

at the moment (7:12pm on a friday evening), google maps is estimating 33 minutes to drive from DCU to UCD, which is just shy of the example 12km; and 43 minutes to cycle. a fit cyclist would do it in noticeably less than that, but a fast car driver would not be able to make any dent in the car time.

anyone doing a 12km commute on a bike regularly would be decently fit.

magicbastarder

Cycling is more dangerous than car use and that isn’t a new thing. Cycling used to be a lot more dangerous, so cycling would not become risk free if cars were removed. In the 1930s US, there was twice as many cycling deaths per capita as present despite a vastly lower ownership rate of cars.

probably vastly higher numbers of people cycling though too? impossible to draw any conclusions from raw stats without knowing just how popular each mode of transport was.

the fatality rates for the states is interesting if you check the source - each figure is consistently a multiple of 10 from 1932 to 1974, and often a multiple of 50. clearly based on estimates, but i guess that's hardly a surprise.

https://injuryfacts.nsc.org/motor-vehicle/historical-fatality-trends/deaths-by-type-of-incident/

Citizen Six

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120101051#Comment_120101051

€1 per km? Are you driving a Hummer?

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120104822#Comment_120104822

I just rounded it up. 🙂

I was using simple numbers, but it should be more like 15c per km. But even at €1 per km there are many who would still drive unnecessary journeys.

[I was future proofing the post - given the sudden rise in prices. Look at how high the ESB charges have got for the charges they provide since their latest rise].

Citizen Six

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120105428#Comment_120105428

I'm 12.5c per km on a tank average. In a 15 year old diesel.

But I totally get your point. Sure the amount of people who just idle their cars for no reason is unreal. Passed a building site at the end of my road this week, at lunch time. Six of the workers in their vehicles, eating lunch, with the engines going.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120106732#Comment_120106732

It is the sunk cost of owning a car that causes many owners to use the car unnecessarily for short journeys that might be made more appropriately by walking or by bike.

When I pass a marina full of very expensive yachts that are tied up 90% to 100% of the time, I think of the waste of assets for 15 minutes of sailing time per day if actual sailing time was spread out over the year. It is like owning a holiday home so you can visit it for the month of August.

People do not understand their effect on other people, and that they can be their own worst enemy.

Thelonious Monk

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/jan/19/low-traffic-neighbourhoods-boundary-roads-london

lots of these around where i live in hackney. cars have absolutely destroyed where i grew up in dublin and where my parents live now, kids cant play outside any more and there are traffic jams on a tiny residential street. despite all this i could never see ltns being tolerated much in dublin as people are so brainwashed by cars and the mere thought of reducing car use seems to be ridiculed by everyone over there. that's not to say there's a loud minority here, black cab drivers etc., but councils seem to mostly ignore them.

after the salthill and sandymount debacle i don't have much hope for dublin.

Peregrine

https://twitter.com/_BrianMahon_/status/1618214659341053952

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