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Global cities reducing car access

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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,678 ✭✭✭✭ Zebra3


    Staggering that a decision to ban things that pollute and kill so many people which also destroy cities can be challenged in court.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,961 ✭✭✭ DaCor




  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 9,205 Mod ✭✭✭✭ CatInABox


    With College Green Plaza being rejected for incredibly old fashioned ideas, such as a misinterpretation of Traffic Evaporation and getting Induced Demand completely wrong, I wonder is there scope to appeal ABP decision, and if that's rejected, is there scope for bringing it into the courts system?

    I mean seriously, rejecting it because there no plans for more "road space". I fell off my chair when I read that, and I'm still falling.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,347 ✭✭✭✭ MJohnston


    Not to reinterrogate the plaza decision, but I think the thing that really killed it was what we're talking about in this thread - the ambition to remove cars from parts of the city. If Paris can ban then from the banks of the Seine, there's no reason we can't have a much smaller ban on a relatively short portion of the quays. It is needed to give buses a fast and efficient path through the city. Plaza or no, I think we should be doing it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,042 ✭✭✭ Garrett Vast Cuttlefish


    All for it. But the public transport in Dublin isn't up to it at the moment so all you'll do is piss people off at the moment


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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭ LeinsterDub


    All for it. But the public transport in Dublin isn't up to it at the moment so all you'll do is piss people off at the moment

    Public transport won't improve if we keep prioritising the car.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,661 ✭✭✭✭ OldMrBrennan83


    The huggers need to accept that buses and bikes aren't always practical.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,681 ✭✭✭✭ P_1


    Patww79 wrote: »
    The huggers need to accept that buses and bikes aren't always practical.

    And sitting in traffic for hours on end is?

    We need a congestion charge in Dublin and potentially Galway too. Give permits to residents and delivery drivers. All funds generated from this are ringfenced into proper public transport.

    Everyone wins


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,661 ✭✭✭✭ OldMrBrennan83


    P_1 wrote: »
    And sitting in traffic for hours on end is?

    We need a congestion charge in Dublin and potentially Galway too. Give permits to residents and delivery drivers. All funds generated from this are ringfenced into proper public transport.

    Everyone wins

    No, not everyone. You, and people who think like you, win.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,681 ✭✭✭✭ P_1


    Patww79 wrote: »
    No, not everyone. You, and people who think like you, win.

    I assume you drive everywhere in town. How long do you spend sat in traffic? Think what else you could be doing with that time


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,661 ✭✭✭✭ OldMrBrennan83


    P_1 wrote: »
    I assume you drive everywhere in town. How long do you spend sat in traffic? Think what else you could be doing with that time

    I can bring what I want, bring home what I want (to an extent but there's piles of room in a car), and enjoy the solitude and safety you never have the pleasure of on a public vehicle.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,681 ✭✭✭✭ P_1


    Patww79 wrote: »
    I can bring what I want, bring home what I want (to an extent but there's piles of room in a car), and enjoy the solitude and safety you never have the pleasure of on a public vehicle.

    Must cost you an absolute fortune. I see it every day on the north quays, nothing but misery on everyone's faces. That's no way to live life


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,686 ✭✭✭ lalababa


    Patww79 wrote: »
    The huggers need to accept that buses and bikes aren't always practical.

    Practical today, deadly tomorrow.
    It's not logical to have too many vehicles going to the same place at the same time with only one person in them all the while emmiting toxic and greenhouse gasses in a built up area.
    Apart from that it causes stress.
    The argument using short-term unpracticalbillity is illogical.
    If your arteries are getting clogged up you have to go to the doctor and get medication, you also have to change your lifestyle to unclog them. If you don't you will most likely die an early death at some point in the future.
    You might not find it practical to go to the doctor today however as you have to drop Johnny to school and do a bit of shopping in town.
    You may not find it practical to change your eating habits today as you are a bit rushed with work and can only grab something from the deli.


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,017 ✭✭✭✭ AndrewJRenko


    Patww79 wrote: »
    I can bring what I want, bring home what I want (to an extent but there's piles of room in a car), and enjoy the solitude and safety you never have the pleasure of on a public vehicle.
    Do you expect cities to be built and managed around your personal desire to drive around with an empty armchair beside you and an empty couch behind you?


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,347 ✭✭✭✭ MJohnston


    Patww79 wrote: »
    I can bring what I want, bring home what I want (to an extent but there's piles of room in a car), and enjoy the solitude and safety you never have the pleasure of on a public vehicle.

    Maybe this ain't the thread for you, considering its about cities that have said "tough luck" to the private car driver!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,661 ✭✭✭✭ OldMrBrennan83


    MJohnston wrote: »
    Maybe this ain't the thread for you, considering its about cities that have said "tough luck" to the private car driver!

    Fair enough but the war needs to be fought though. If there was a thread on using cars in cities how long do you think it would be before someone was along with some nonsense about pollution and the environment? And I somehow doubt your high moral compass on relevant posts would be along to correct anyone there.

    Other cities are of no concern to me but I really don't want Dublin or any other ones here to follow suit.

    Anyway, we'll never agree so yeah carry on.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,925 ✭✭✭ NSAman


    Public transport won't improve if we keep prioritising the car.

    Public transport has to be usable and available to most before you can ditch the car.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,347 ✭✭✭✭ MJohnston


    Patww79 wrote: »
    Fair enough but the war needs to be fought though. If there was a thread on using cars in cities how long do you think it would be before someone was along with some nonsense about pollution and the environment? And I somehow doubt your high moral standing on relevant posts would be along to correct anyone there.

    Other cities are of no concern to me but I really don't want Dublin or any other ones here to follow suit.

    If you want to create a thread that lives in la la land, go ahead. But we live in a country with an environmental and societal agenda that will very soon target selfish car use in cities. Even whether or not you think this is the right thing to do, you have to admit that for a city like Dublin, there is no other option.

    You yourself have admitted that no form of public transport will be enough to peel you from your car seat. So building more Metros won't solve the traffic problem. And there's absolutely no way to make space for *more* traffic, never mind the environmental arguments against it.

    So, there's only one way forward, and that's to make things unpleasant for drivers in parallel with public transport improvements.

    If you have an alternative idea that doesn't involve some nutty Elon Musk road tunnel, I'm all ears!


  • Registered Users Posts: 930 ✭✭✭ Brian CivilEng


    There are people that need cars to get by, the mobility impaired or infirm, elderly people and also delivery drivers. Those people more than anyone should feel most aggrieved by roads being full of able bodies drivers on their own in a car making journeys of less than 5km.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭ LeinsterDub


    NSAman wrote: »
    Public transport has to be usable and available to most before you can ditch the car.

    In Dublin it certainly is that already.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 22,407 ✭✭✭✭ blanch152


    Patww79 wrote: »
    The huggers need to accept that buses and bikes aren't always practical.


    Public transport needs to be improved and facilitated, and if cars need to be banned to achieve that, I am all for it.

    Bicycles are different, they are not an all-year round option for commuting in Ireland. In winter, whether it is storms or snow, or just the darker mornings and nights, commuting by bicycle drops. For that reason, we shouldn't be working to facilitate bicycles in the same way as buses, Luas or trains.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,007 ✭✭✭ Ben D Bus


    NSAman wrote: »
    Public transport has to be usable and available to most before you can ditch the car.

    It's useable for enough people right now to start changing things. The tougher cases can be dealt with later as PT becomes better as a result of the changes.


  • Registered Users Posts: 22,407 ✭✭✭✭ blanch152


    In Dublin it certainly is that already.
    #



    Not a chance. Try getting a bus to Blanchardstown from Blackhall Place any evening. Watch them pass by, full up to the gills.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,681 ✭✭✭✭ P_1


    blanch152 wrote: »
    Public transport needs to be improved and facilitated, and if cars need to be banned to achieve that, I am all for it.

    Bicycles are different, they are not an all-year round option for commuting in Ireland. In winter, whether it is storms or snow, or just the darker mornings and nights, commuting by bicycle drops. For that reason, we shouldn't be working to facilitate bicycles in the same way as buses, Luas or trains.

    For any journey of 10k or less for a person of average fitness cycling really is the smartest option to get around town.

    For Dublin that equates to basically anywhere within the M50 going to the city center.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭ LeinsterDub


    blanch152 wrote: »
    #



    Not a chance. Try getting a bus to Blanchardstown from Blackhall Place any evening. Watch them pass by, full up to the gills.

    That would suggest that the bus is usable and used by many and is available for most


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,347 ✭✭✭✭ MJohnston


    blanch152 wrote: »
    Public transport needs to be improved and facilitated, and if cars need to be banned to achieve that, I am all for it.

    Bicycles are different, they are not an all-year round option for commuting in Ireland. In winter, whether it is storms or snow, or just the darker mornings and nights, commuting by bicycle drops. For that reason, we shouldn't be working to facilitate bicycles in the same way as buses, Luas or trains.

    If you work to facilitate buses and pedestrians, you will unavoidably facilitate cyclists too.

    It's basically a 3 way balance - Luas on one side, cars on another side, buses/pedestrians/cyclists on the other (trains tend to live completely apart from all that). Right now we're very much tilted towards the cars.


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,017 ✭✭✭✭ AndrewJRenko


    blanch152 wrote: »
    Public transport needs to be improved and facilitated, and if cars need to be banned to achieve that, I am all for it.

    Bicycles are different, they are not an all-year round option for commuting in Ireland. In winter, whether it is storms or snow, or just the darker mornings and nights, commuting by bicycle drops. For that reason, we shouldn't be working to facilitate bicycles in the same way as buses, Luas or trains.


    Lights sort the darker nights and mornings. Snow is indeed a problem, but an extremely rare one. Storms too.


    Cycling is a very practical solution to commuting in Dublin all year round for many people.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,678 ✭✭✭✭ Zebra3


    Winters are colder and darker in Denmark yet they seem to be able to cycle over there no problem in huge numbers.

    I wonder what the big difference is. If only I could put my finger on it.....


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,084 ✭✭✭ jimwallace197


    I would have no problem in using public transport more if it was anyway suitable.

    We all know where the motortax goes in this country already so why would that change if they introduced congestion charges.

    Already there is huge mismanagement of our finances through sheer incompetence & corruption so why do you think that would change for this.

    It’s embarrassing our capital doesn’t have a proper underground metro or even proper rail network.

    For me, my work requires me to drive, cycling from a to b or waiting on a bus is not practical


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  • Registered Users Posts: 22,407 ✭✭✭✭ blanch152


    P_1 wrote: »
    For any journey of 10k or less for a person of average fitness cycling really is the smartest option to get around town.

    For Dublin that equates to basically anywhere within the M50 going to the city center.

    Don't disagree that this is true most of the time, the problem is that cycling stops for six or more weeks in the winter, and if commuting is built around cycling, that causes a massive problem.

    For me, I am not that interested in sorting the commuting cyclist infrastructure, I am much more interested in sorting the public transport infrastructure which should take priority over cycling.


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