Charging for Charging announced for H1 2019

ELM327

Apparently as per thread (I don't know how to copy a link to the actual discussion) on the EV owners facebook page , it was announced at some sort of summit today?
Anyone here have any info on this, or better yet anyone in attendance?

Finally. Will be interesting to find out what the pricing looks like. Most likely will help with the long trips going forward. Wonder if it will be per minute or per kWh? Bets?

unkel

I'd almost say the higher the charges, the better. Maybe 30c per minute plus 30c per kWh? Or 20c per minute plus 60c per kWh?

This must be a great relief for people doing long distances regularly. Particularly for Leaf owners.

_Brian

I’m presuming the happiness is that selfish people won’t hog the chargers ??

I see someone doing this and it must be awfully annoying

Orebro

This is manna from heaven - will make those longer journeys less scary now.

antodeco

They should create a leap type card for discounted use. Per KW. This can track usage but you have time limitations.

EG: You top up with 500KWH (random figures) but this gives you 3 hours worth of charging. That way if you go over your time allowance it either stops, or uses your credit, but you can carry over your KW usage.

Mancomb Seepgood

I hope they plan all this a little better than their previous attempt two years ago.I think most EV owners are ready for this.It'll catch the freeloaders out but that's no harm.

My preference would be a per kwh charger with a time based surcharge once the charging speed drops below a certain level.FCPs should failover to "free vend" when the connection to the network is disrupted similar to what happens with Ecotricity in the UK.

irishgrover

No, this would be nuts expensive -- if public charging an EV was going to cost me ~€40+ to do Galway<>Dub return, then I would just take the wifes 3liter v6 petrol.

We need to price it to incentivise people to charge their EVs at home. 
Not price it to incentivise people to just leave their EVs at home. 

discostu1

irishgrover wrote: »

No, this would be nuts expensive -- if public charging an EV was going to cost me ~€40+ to do Galway<>Dub return, then I would just take the wifes 3liter v6 petrol.

We need to price it to incentivise people to charge their EVs at home.
Not price it to incentivise people to just leave there EVs at home. :eek:

This is a really good point, assuming 30c a Kwh for a 30kw Leaf so for say 170 kms of Motorway you would need to charge one on the way up once on the way down so at a guess €8 each way total €16* I think an efficient diesel/petrol would do the journey for around the same without the additional 40 minutes for charging
* I was crap at maths in school so maybe my figures are way off

bonoman66

What a relevant video from Nigel & James...

Good timing..

unkel

irishgrover wrote: »

No, this would be nuts expensive -- if public charging an EV was going to cost me ~€40+ to do Galway<>Dub return, then I would just take the wifes 3liter v6 petrol.

Maths fail

The wife's 3 liter V6 petrol would use over 40l of petrol for the 400km return trip. That's €60 + full price tolls. And it costs €1700 to tax for the year. And all other trips costs a fortune too. I only know too well as my last family car was also a 3 liter V6 petrol - I averaged not much better than 15MPG around Dublin

The EV would need to be topped up twice for 20 minutes, taking on 15kWh each time. This will cost with my plan either:
2 * 20m * 20c + 2 * 15kWh * 60c = €26 + half price tolls
2 * 20m * 30c + 2 * 15kWh * 30c = €21 + half price tolls

So about a third of the cost in the EV. And on all other trips during the year (apart from the odd long on), electricity is nearly free

Dont be at yourself

I’d have no problem paying the equivalent of a tank of petrol at FCPs because it would greatly reduce pressure on the public network, and 99% of my charges would still be at home.

unkel

+1

And it will get rid of local imbeciles like the one I posted in the Leaf 2018 thread. Hooking up his car (which was already 70% charged) at a fast charge point and abandoning it for well over 2 hours while the car was charging as slowly as 1kW :rolleyes:

In my example that would cost him the guts of fifty quid (130 * 30 + 12 * 30) for the electric gain of less than a euro. The EV equivalent of being clamped :cool:
He wouldn't do that again in a hurry, the gobsh1te

Mancomb Seepgood

Drivers of electric vehicles will have to pay at charging points for first time (via @IrishTimes) https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/drivers-of-electric-vehicles-will-have-to-pay-at-charging-points-for-first-time-1.3674558

Mention of banks of fast chargers and "superchargers",I hope this is true and the Times isn't mixing it up with the Ionity stations.

cros13

Yeah, ESB announcement is that they will be rolling out their own 150kW charging hubs with 4 - 8 chargers per location.
And they'll be doing the initial rollout before charging fees come in next year.

I'm very happy if that's the situation. The priority was always multiple rapids per site and prompt maintenance, followed by higher power rapids for the newer cars.

I think the majority have no issue with fees for rapid charging. Hopefully when those fees are announced they'll be per kWh (with maybe an overstay charge).

99nsr125

ELM327 wrote: »

Apparently as per thread (I don't know how to copy a link to the actual discussion) on the EV owners facebook page , it was announced at some sort of summit today?
Anyone here have any info on this, or better yet anyone in attendance?

About time

99nsr125

irishgrover wrote: »

No, this would be nuts expensive -- if public charging an EV was going to cost me ~€40+ to do Galway<>Dub return, then I would just take the wifes 3liter v6 petrol.

We need to price it to incentivise people to charge their EVs at home.
Not price it to incentivise people to just leave there EVs at home. :eek:

It'll have to be priced akin to regular cars

Personal transport generates alot of revenue, this cannot change or the infrastructure disintegrates

slave1

Whatever system they come up with, either time or quantity or a hybrid of the two...I want to be charged on my home electricity bill...

unkel

slave1 wrote: »

I want to be charged on my home electricity bill...

I want of lot of things and they ain't gonna happen either

Forget about it dude. It will not be on your home electricity bill.

Turbohymac

And how about that increase of pollution to the atmosphere now when there will clearly be a lot more electricity needed for all these fastchargers.. the generation /making of electricity isn't green.. maybe gas instead of ev's like the route the commercial vehicles are heading

drunkmonkey

Surely any charges will be on power used not length of time parked in the charging points. What's to deter anyone from still leaving it there and walking off.

liamog

There are ways and means, some fairer than others.

I'm a fan of kWh equivalent pricing, i.e. you pay per minute based on the available kW of the charger.
Other systems are
kWh with overstay fee.
kWh plus connection fee
kWh + minute

Mike9832

unkel wrote: »

I'd almost say the higher the charges, the better. Maybe 30c per minute plus 30c per kWh? Or 20c per minute plus 60c per kWh?

This must be a great relief for people doing long distances regularly. Particularly for Leaf owners.

Has to be time based, no other way it can work

40c per minute would be fair

Need to forget about old tech like Leafs, tough luck ye bought the wrong car, needs to be future proof charging pricing infrastructure based on decent 70kW+ charging tech like Hyundai, Kia, VW ID etc

Round Cable

Mike9832 wrote: »

Need to forget about old tech like Leafs, tough luck ye bought the wrong car, needs to be future proof charging pricing infrastructure based on decent 70kW+ charging tech like Hyundai, Kia, VW ID etc

And with that ecars would forget about 75% of their potential charging customers in Ireland! There is no issue offering a higher kW output fast charger for all, each car will only draw what they can from it.

Per kW charging is fair plus a charge per minute if you're connected for over 40 minutes.

ELM327

Mike9832 wrote: »

Has to be time based, no other way it can work

40c per minute would be fair

Need to forget about old tech like Leafs, tough luck ye bought the wrong car, needs to be future proof charging pricing infrastructure based on decent 70kW+ charging tech like Hyundai, Kia, VW ID etc

Don't worry thierry this doesnt affect you diesel drivers. Whatever they charge it will still be cheaper than diesel as 99.9% of charging should be done at 6-8c/kWh at home.

ELM327

Round Cable wrote: »

And with that ecars would forget about 75% of their potential charging customers in Ireland! There is no issue offering a higher kW output fast charger for all, each car will only draw what they can from it.

Per kW charging is fair plus a charge per minute if you're connected for over 40 minutes.

I think you mean per kWh?
But actually I agree that there should be some charge based on the kW of the charger vs what your car can take. EG penalise someone taking 10kW on a 50kW charger.

Soarer

Mike9832 wrote: »

Has to be time based, no other way it can work

40c per minute would be fair

Need to forget about old tech like Leafs, tough luck ye bought the wrong car, needs to be future proof charging pricing infrastructure based on decent 70kW+ charging tech like Hyundai, Kia, VW ID etc

For cars you can't buy, or don't exist?!

Round Cable

ELM327 wrote: »

I think you mean per kWh?
But actually I agree that there should be some charge based on the kW of the charger vs what your car can take. EG penalise someone taking 10kW on a 50kW charger.

I do indeed, I was half asleep! The stay fee would also cover this low kW draw at the end of a charge.

Silent Running

unkel wrote: »

I want of lot of things and they ain't gonna happen either

Forget about it dude. It will not be on your home electricity bill.

I don't know why you're so sure about this. If a retailer gets in on the act (Energia for example) they could wholesale the electricity from ESB and retail it to you via an access card. Discount car charging for household account holders, all on the one bill. Why not?

Mantis Toboggan

For people who change at home did you notice a big jump in usage and also cost of bills?

ELM327

Mantis Toboggan wrote: »

For people who change at home did you notice a big jump in usage and also cost of bills?

No
Less than €2 on night rate per charge. So that's €14 a week for me to do 50k km per year. Compared to over €100 (based on current fuel prices) in diesel.

axe2grind

Finally, wasn't seriously considering an EV until charges for charging are introduced.

Orebro

Mike9832 wrote: »

Has to be time based, no other way it can work

40c per minute would be fair

Need to forget about old tech like Leafs, tough luck ye bought the wrong car, needs to be future proof charging pricing infrastructure based on decent 70kW+ charging tech like Hyundai, Kia, VW ID etc

Right you are Thierry - that's how all business works, exclude a huge amount of potential customers.

Del2005

ELM327 wrote: »

Don't worry thierry this doesnt affect you diesel drivers. Whatever they charge it will still be cheaper than diesel as 99.9% of charging should be done at 6-8c/kWh at home.

Not if you don't have access to a home charger. They want to make sure that it's not too expensive or people who can't charge at home will have no incentive to change.

ELM327

Del2005 wrote: »

Not if you don't have access to a home charger. They want to make sure that it's not too expensive or people who can't charge at home will have no incentive to change.

That's not the intended use for fast chargers though.
Do people who have to use more diesel get it significantly cheaper?
No need to legislate for the few, at the expense of the many.

UK pricing is 25-30-45p/kWh, Norway is around 2.5 Nok/Min (approx 25c). These countries have no issue with uptake.

KCross

Mantis Toboggan wrote: »

For people who change at home did you notice a big jump in usage and also cost of bills?

Its a how long is a piece of string question.

The more you drive the more your electricity bills will go up but it doesnt matter because whatever increase you see in your electricity bills will be about one fifth of what you would have paid to do the same miles in a diesel.... thats about all you need to know really.

Mantis Toboggan

KCross wrote: »

Its a how long is a piece of string question.

The more you drive the more your electricity bills will go up but it doesnt matter because whatever increase you see in your electricity bills will be about one fifth of what you would have paid to do the same miles in a diesel.... thats about all you need to know really.

Well at 2 euro per night that would be 60 euro per month. My diesel bill would be 70 euro per month.

KCross

Mantis Toboggan wrote: »

Well at 2 euro per night that would be 60 euro per month. My diesel bill would be 70 euro per month.

The €2 is for that posters mileage, not yours. At €70/month you are definitely not doing 50k km's per year!!

If your diesel bill is €70 then the electricity to do the same mileage will be a fifth of that.

Mantis Toboggan

KCross wrote: »

The €2 is for that posters mileage, not yours. At €70/month you are definitely not doing 50k km's per year!!

If your diesel bill is €70 then the electricity to do the same mileage will be a fifth of that.

OK so if I'm only doing 25, 000km per year I wouldn't need to charge it every night?

Reason I ask is my neighbour does little driving (15k per year) but always seems to have the car plugged in so I was thinking their electricity bills must be huge.

KCross

Mantis Toboggan wrote: »

OK so if I'm only doing 25, 000km per year I wouldn't need to charge it every night?

Reason I ask is my neighbour does little driving (15k per year) but always seems to have the car plugged in so I was thinking their electricity bills must be huge.

You probably would charge it every night but that doesnt mean its charging all night.

You come home, plug it in and the timer in the car will decide when it actually starts charging. It might be charging for an hour or 3 hours or whatever depending on how much driving you did that day.

cros13

Mantis Toboggan wrote: »

OK so if I'm only doing 25, 000km per year I wouldn't need to charge it every night?

Reason I ask is my neighbour does little driving (15k per year) but always seems to have the car plugged in so I was thinking their electricity bills must be huge.

Night rate electricity is ten times cheaper per km than diesel, and while a car would normally always be plugged in while at home... doesn't mean it's actually charging or needs charging.

In many cases where people have gone from 24 hour meters to night rate (including my own) not only has the fuel bill disappeared but the electricity bill has gone down as well...
That's possible because existing consumption in the house also benefits from the lower nighttime rate (which is usually at a ~60% discount) while daytime rate increases by only ~6%.

Personally, at ~60,000 km per annum and with the lower maintenance requirements of my EVs I've saved ~€25k since switching in 2014 in running costs.

ELM327

Mantis Toboggan wrote: »

OK so if I'm only doing 25, 000km per year I wouldn't need to charge it every night?

Reason I ask is my neighbour does little driving (15k per year) but always seems to have the car plugged in so I was thinking their electricity bills must be huge.

Could be plugged in waiting for night rate to kick in, and not charging yet (you can set this in the car)


My mileage is at least 50k every year, I do generally between 120 and 200km per day, every day monday to sunday. My diesel bill was closer to 700 a month than 70!

jusmeig

Fix the title of the thread please, I created another thread as I could not find this one and was suprised nobody was talking about it already!
GREAT NEWS

If you pay for the service, there is a duty to provide reliability.
THe charging hubs sound like a great idea, as at the moment its usually just one or two cars trying to get Chademo or CCS. If 2+ cars could charge simultaneously -> that would be great!

Mantis Toboggan

Mantis Toboggan wrote: »

always seems to have the car plugged in so I was thinking their electricity bills must be huge.

An EV is not an electric heater. The car won't pull anything from the plug if the battery is already full. If your neighbour drives say 100 kilometers a day they'll need approx. 12-20 kWh of power depending on the car and type of driving which currently costs between 95c-1.60 a day if they are on a competitive rate. 100 km a day 5 days a week (so 500 km a week) is 26000 km/annum so close enough to your usage.

ELM327

jusmeig wrote: »

Fix the title of the thread please, I created another thread as I could not find this one and was suprised nobody was talking about it already!
GREAT NEWS

If you pay for the service, there is a duty to provide reliability.
THe charging hubs sound like a great idea, as at the moment its usually just one or two cars trying to get Chademo or CCS. If 2+ cars could charge simultaneously -> that would be great!

"Charging for Charging announced for H1 2019"

Can't see how it could be any clearer tbh

jusmeig

Turbohymac wrote: »

And how about that increase of pollution to the atmosphere now when there will clearly be a lot more electricity needed for all these fastchargers.. the generation /making of electricity isn't green.. maybe gas instead of ev's like the route the commercial vehicles are heading

Our grid is consistently getting greener year on year.
Electric cars are the only cars that get less polluting over their life time as a result of the above.

jusmeig

ELM327 wrote: »

"Charging for Charging announced for H1 2019"

Can't see how it could be any clearer tbh

An End to FREE Charging on the eCars Network?
:cool:

Del2005

ELM327 wrote: »

That's not the intended use for fast chargers though.
Do people who have to use more diesel get it significantly cheaper?
No need to legislate for the few, at the expense of the many.

UK pricing is 25-30-45p/kWh, Norway is around 2.5 Nok/Min (approx 25c). These countries have no issue with uptake.

They are starting with the fast chargers and then expanding the charging.

The difference here is that someone with home charging is paying significantly less for the same electricity that someone who doesn't have access to home charging.

We need more people to live in apartments as we can't keep expanding our cities and towns. The few now will become the many so we need to plan ahead. Especially when the government is already planning to charge for road usage as the swap to EV kills revenues.

ELM327

jusmeig wrote: »

An End to FREE Charging on the eCars Network?
:cool:

It's not an eCars network as they don't own it.
Until the cru approves the decision , currently the network is in a limbo.


But "charging for charging announced" is not any less clear than what you said.
In fact it's clearer as it's shorter and to the point.


But I digress from your attempt at semantics to discuss the issue at hand, which is the charging for charging coming in in H1 2019.

ELM327

Del2005 wrote: »

They are starting with the fast chargers and then expanding the charging.

The difference here is that someone with home charging is paying significantly less for the same electricity that someone who doesn't have access to home charging.

We need more people to live in apartments as we can't keep expanding our cities and towns. The few now will become the many so we need to plan ahead. Especially when the government is already planning to charge for road usage as the swap to EV kills revenues.

Don't see the link to apartments. I live in an apartment and have a home charger. I see from other discussions that I'm not the only one either.

And they are not paying for "the same electricity".
Electricity from a granny cable at 2kW is a lot, lot less expensive to deliver than a DC 50kW station with a peak MIC of probably 60kW to allow for internal electronics

jusmeig

ELM327 wrote: »

It's not an eCars network as they don't own it.
Until the cru approves the decision , currently the network is in a limbo.


But "charging for charging announced" is not any less clear than what you said.
In fact it's clearer as it's shorter and to the point.


But I digress from your attempt at semantics to discuss the issue at hand, which is the charging for charging coming in in H1 2019.

We will agree to disagree. I used the word car, this is helpful.