86 years old gets suspended sentence for sexually abusing two children over 50 years

freshpopcorn

What do people make of this sentence?
Do you agree that he shouldn't have being jailed. I do get where the judge was coming from with his sentence but they are plenty of people with health issues that live for years.

That man is an evil and cruel individual so I do think he should face some sentence.
An 86-year-old man has been given an eight-year suspended sentence for indecently assaulting two young children and raping one of them in the late 1950s and early 1960s.
John Joe Kiernan from Forthill, Arva in Cavan, pleaded guilty to11 sample counts of indecent assault and one count of rape between 1958 and 1964.
Mr Justice Michael White praised what he described as the "unbelievable courage" of the man and woman, who are now in their 60s, but were aged five and four when the abuse began.
He said if Kiernan had been a younger man, in better health, the court would have imposed a substantial custodial sentence.
But he said the court's function was not to extract revenge but to protect society, deal with victims and rehabilitation.
He said it was not appropriate to impose a custodial sentence in this case.
Kiernan, who will turn 87 next month, is in chronic ill-health, with conditions including heart disease, osteoarthritis, obstructive pulmonary lung disease and diabetes and was now confined to his home due to his ill-health.
He has also already served a five-year sentence imposed in 2005 for sexual and indecent assaults against three boys and one girl and is alienated from his own children.
Mr Justice White said he accepted Kiernan was remorseful. He had originally tried to minimise the seriousness of the offences, but was now aware how serious they are.
The judge again praised the courage of the man and woman who came forward in this case.
In his sentencing remarks last week, he said they were "brutally traduced" at a time in Ireland when no one talked about these kind of things.
The judge said they were totally and utterly innocent children and he was struck by the overall brutality of the crimes.
Kiernan was old and frail now, but the offences took place when he was at the height of his strength as a farm labourer.
He was a strong man and had issued a "spine chilling threat" to the life of the then young girl. ]The judge said Kiernan knew that what he was doing was seriously wrong and was threatening them to make sure they did not tell anyone.
Warning: Some readers may find the following report distressing
The court heard that Kiernan was working as a farm labourer for a family.
The children's father was away working for long period of the year and their mother trusted and relied on Kiernan to help on the farm.
The boy was the eldest of the children and was five years old when he was first abused by Kiernan in a barn.
He told gardaí he was abused on an ongoing basis for most of his early years and the abuse became part of normal life.
The girl also gave evidence of being abused, beginning when she was four years old and of being raped on one occasion. She described Kiernan as a serious blight on her childhood.
She told gardaí that on one occasion, Kiernan's mother walked in while he was abusing her and roared and shouted at him to "get her out of here".
She described how Kiernan threw her to the ground outside the house with the chickens and told her he would bury her with all the other bones around there and no one would find her.
She said what he said caused her great anxiety for many years.
He also told her dogs would pull her apart like they were pulling apart a rabbit and no one would know or care.
She described another occasion where she stood up to him and pushed him away when she was around nine years old. She said she got really angry, but she said Kiernan was laughing at her.
Both the man and woman described how Kiernan would give them chocolate. They reported the abuse last year.
When he was questioned about the crimes in this case, he said he had not sexually assaulted the children but had "just handled them" or "fondled them".
In victim impact statements the man and woman said their childhood innocence had been shattered. The woman said what Kiernan had done had created great turmoil throughout her life.
She said it had been very difficult to tell her family what had happened, but it had been healing to be believed.
The man said Kiernan had taken advantage of his mother and he had sad memories about his home. He now felt some relief.
Kiernan is now in significant ill-health, the court heard, and suffers from heart disease and diabetes.
His defence counsel, Grainne McMorrow, said he wanted to apologise for the trauma he visited on the man and woman and the impact that has had on their lives since.
She said he had been anxious to take responsibility for what he had done, albeit very late in the day.
Ms McMorrow said Kiernan had married in 1976 and had not offended again after that. She said he was ashamed of who he had been. She said the greater portion of his life was most certainly over.
Ms McMorrow said her client did not believe he was entitled to forgiveness, but he wanted to say and do anything that would ease their pain and dreadful memories.
She said in his answers to garda questions he did not appear to understand the nature of sexual assault, but appeared over time to have gained more insight into the impact of what he had done.
She said he was a man of limited intellectual and emotional understanding.
Ms McMorrow said he posed no risk of reoffending and she suggested he may have been a victim of sexual abuse as a child himself.
She said his mother's reaction to walking in on one of the incidents of abuse showed that these matters were not addressed appropriately in his own family.
Ms McMorrow said he was isolated and lonely at the time and had described himself as being not right in the head and sex-crazed.
She said he apologised profusely for the horrors he visited on the man and woman in their early childhood and wished them peace, prosperity and closure.

https://www.rte.ie/news/courts/2018/1022/1005863-john-joe-kiernan-courts/

Fr_Dougal

I’d let the victims decide if it should be suspended or not, give them some sort of closure.

TheValeyard

Jail. Age should not matter. Doesnt matter how far in the past it was.

holy guacamole

Having seen the footage of him coming in and out of court today I think this was the best course of action for all concerned.

Granted, he could have been making a meal of it for the cameras but he looked incredibly frail and weak and, according to reports, is housebound due to his health issues.

Putting a man like that in prison and providing staff to give him the care and support he requires would be pretty pointless. He isn't a threat to children anymore and there's no chance of rehabilitation at this late stage so let him see out the rest of his miserable existence at home.

McCrack

I think it's the right decision

Imprisonment at age 86 with a range of chronic health issues that the prison service probably will not manage for will serve no meaningful purpose in this particular case

eviltwin

Would make you feel as a victim what is the point of putting yourself through all that

Timberrrrrrrr

Lock him up and throw away the key.

punisher5112

May he rot in hell the bastard....

I feel so bad for the then kids and even now.

How could anyone do this to a child.....

marklazarcovic

I fckin hate how they look for sympathy by claiming "he may have been abused himself" ..

Like that should somehow lessen the crimes he commited.

Signore Fancy Pants

I wonder what percentage of culprits that land before a Judge, end up recieving some type of sentence that in relative terms, favours them over the victims/State?

Suspended or concurrent sentences, repeat offenders being let off lightly, "disadvantaged" people who have had a "difficult" upbringing, addicts of all types "seeking help and are reforming"...the list goes on.

There seems to be a Judicial culture of softly softly approach amid regular inconsistencies towards sentencing.

Thugs, scumbags, junkies, thieves et al all know how to play the system. The reward for their crimes outweight the punishment and they know what they can get away with.

mad muffin

Hammer to the nuts. Let him die in agony :mad:

dark crystal

Let this be a lesson to all you sexual abuse victims out there - make sure and report the abuser whilst they're still in fine fettle. Maybe get a certificate of health from the cretin's doctor before you start looking for justice.


It's a fine legal system we have in this little country.

Yer Da sells Avon

marklazarcovic wrote: »

I fckin hate how they look for sympathy by claiming "he may have been abused himself" ..

Like that should somehow lessen the crimes he commited.

Not to mention how insulting it is to actual victims.

lawred2

holy guacamole wrote: »

Having seen the footage of him coming in and out of court today I think this was the best course of action for all concerned.

Granted, he could have been making a meal of it for the cameras but he looked incredibly frail and weak and, according to reports, is housebound due to his health issues.

Putting a man like that in prison and providing staff to give him the care and support he requires would be pretty pointless. He isn't a threat to children anymore and there's no chance of rehabilitation at this late stage so let him see out the rest of his miserable existence at home.

Pointless?

He's a vile rapist. He didn't stop being one at retirement age.

Does society care more for rapists than it does the victims of rape?

archer22

He wasn't bothered that his victims were young and weak...why should anybody have sympathy for him now on the grounds that he is old and weak.

salmocab

I dislike that his age is taken into account when his crime was against somebody who’s age mattered to him. It’s disgusting that he effectively is off the hook.

Uncharted

Age did not concern him when he committed those vile crimes,so it should be of no concern today when he should pay for those crimes.

The dirty,smelly,horrible bastard.

I hope he dies alone roaring in agony.

Fcuking disgusting piece of sh1t.

erica74

eviltwin wrote: »

Would make you feel as a victim what is the point of putting yourself through all that

I have just started into this process, the gardai have just begun their investigation, and stories like this frighten me. I don't want to put myself through an investigation and court for my brother to get a suspended sentence. I don't want to go through describing what happened to me over and over again, for my brother to get a suspended sentence.

Grayson

archer22 wrote: »

He wasn't bothered that his victims were young and weak...why should anybody have sympathy for him now on the grounds that he is old and weak.

Because we're better than him.

I understand why people feel the way they do. i want him to go to prison. Thing is that he'd probably spend most of his time in hospital and would need loads of care. If we had the facilities I'd say send him there but we don't. I'm not sure if there is a suitable outcome for people here.

Bill Cosby is about his age and he’s spending the rest of his life in prison. Honestly we should be more like America in regards to dealing with criminals.

fritzelly

archer22 wrote: »

He wasn't bothered that his victims were young and weak...why should anybody have sympathy for him now on the grounds that he is old and weak.

This over and over
It's like judges just look for excuses not to jail anyone anymore

When was this first reported?

Irish Guitarist

There's always some excuse by judges not to give someone a custodial sentence. A couple of years ago someone got away with raping his two nieces because the judge thought it would be hard on the perpetrators mother.

And this American idea of 'closure' is bullshit.

"I'm sorry for raping you".

"That's great. Now I have closure. Thanks."

Fuck off with that shite.

McCrack

McCrack wrote: »

I think it's the right decision

Imprisonment at age 86 with a range of chronic health issues that the prison service probably will not manage for will serve no meaningful purpose in this particular case

A suspended sentence for terrorizing and abusing kids, stealing their safety and innocence, blighting their adult lives and causing them untold anguish, anxiety, fear and unhappiness is not commensurate with the crime.

I understand he's old and frail, but he deserves some kind of meaningful punishment for justice to be done and to be seen to be done, and to make the victims ordeal in coming forward and exposing their pain worth the cost. They must be wondering why they put themselves through it.

TallGlass

I guess. On one had you have he is old etc.. and the other hand if you jail him, it sends a clear message that no matter what age you are or how your health is, you'll be jailed and may die in prision.

I have to say the court as of late have been extremely disappointing in sentencing. Particularly around domestic violence and sexual assaults/rape/pedos.

TallGlass

TallGlass wrote: »

I guess. On one had you have he is old etc.. and the other hand if you jail him, it sends a clear message that no matter what age you are or how your health is, you'll be jailed and may die in prision.

I have to say the court as of late have been extremely disappointing in sentencing. Particularly around domestic violence and sexual assaults/rape/pedos.

the message the courts send these days are rack up a few hundred convictions and you’ll spend a few months in prison. I mean in all fairness why not commit crime if the justice system isn’t bothered their arse handing out sufficient punishment. If some little scumbag can get away with robbing and drugs left and right for years before spending a short while in prison with a television and Xbox— I mean “anti suicide device”, what’s the incentive to behave yourself?

larchielads

erica74 wrote: »

I have just started into this process, the gardai have just begun their investigation, and stories like this frighten me. I don't want to put myself through an investigation and court for my brother to get a suspended sentence. I don't want to go through describing what happened to me over and over again, for my brother to get a suspended sentence.

sorry that happened you

whisky_galore

The expected 'ah shur God luv him' verdict.
Typical Ireland.

valoren

He should die in jail.

He might as well have been given a one Billion year suspended sentence for all the effect it will have.

Instead he will die at home in relative comfort.

Zorya

Such a disgusting and disturbing case, makes one feel terrible anger towards the abuser. He raped a very small child and ruined two children's childhoods. It's absolutely vile.
Punishment should not just be about the particular person - it should also be about affirming a societies position on certain issues. This man should be put in prison so that present perpetrators know that there is a consequence for their disgusting actions no matter how far into the future their deeds come to light. Instead now some of them can sigh relief that even if prosecuted for historical crimes they will walk free.

I cannot for the life of me understand the short sentences for incest that are routinely given in this country - it is like a subtle recognition or acceptance of a peculiar Irish familial disease. Makes me mad. Also in cases like this, the non-familial sexual abuse of children - it seems not to rank very highly as a category of crime for the judiciary, if one goes by the sentences. Makes me think dark thoughts about them! Incest and child sexual abuse should be second to murder in terms of seriousness, and actually treated as such with retributive sentencing. Ach, these things just made me so angry.

Fart

They're some old children!

Zorya

Fart wrote: »

They're some old children!

What happens to you when you are a very small child is deeply formative regarding the rest of your life. It takes a huge amount to overcome such brutality in childhood.

valoren

Fart wrote: »

They're some old children!

They were aged 5 and 4 when the abuse started.
Try asking any 4 or 5 year old to explain the following in detail;

• What is Rape?
• What is a Threat
• What is Intimidation
• What is Manipulation
• What is Abuse
• What is Harrassment

They probably couldn't spell them never mind give a coherent explanation.

When he was questioned about the crimes in this case, he said he had not sexually assaulted the children but had "just handled them" or "fondled them".

Even after all the intervening years he has tried to minimize what he did. Sex crazed my ass. Why didn't he rape, threaten, harass and intimidate an adult? Because they understand and can explain the above as we have seen when they eventually brought this to trial. A child doesn't and so he got away with it for decades and even now is still getting away with it.

.......

He should be locked up and any assets seized from him and sold and the money given to his victims. Including his pension.

A bare minimum of medical care and let him die frightened and lonely.

sbsquarepants

Exactly - he's no more vulnerable now than they were then - fúck him, let him die alone a cell the dirty old bastard.

sbsquarepants

erica74 wrote: »

I have just started into this process, the gardai have just begun their investigation, and stories like this frighten me. I don't want to put myself through an investigation and court for my brother to get a suspended sentence. I don't want to go through describing what happened to me over and over again, for my brother to get a suspended sentence.

I can understand your fears, the justice system is a disgrace when it comes to things like this. But if you want my 2 cents (and if you don't, feel free to tell me to mind my own business!) Go for it, take your chance.

I hope to god it works out well for you, but if it does end in a suspended sentence or something along those lines (which is entirely possible)- at least you tried, you said your piece and you fought back and you can be very proud of that - to do that takes guts, you have my admiration!

None of us can do anymore than try at the end of the day.

JP Liz V1

Why should he be given the luxury of home comfort after being convicted as a sex offender rapist :mad: those poor victims

Cee-Jay-Cee

He should be put in prison and denied medical attention if he needs it, let the horrible old bastard suffer for the pain and hurt he has caused over the years.

Edward M

I know this man, I know his victims too.
If its any consolation, he will and has been virtually a prisoner in his home for years.
He has a family too, his wife still lives with him, he has a son and daughter, both they and the wife are very nice ordinary people.
Like all of you on here, everyone here beside him wishes he was locked up and the keys thrown away.
But we are mindful too of his family, all of his crimes took place long before his marriage and the birth of his children, their lives are now destroyed locally too, believe it or not, not because of any hostile feelings towards them but because of their sense of shame because of their association with him. Its a desperate hard time for them now too as well as his victims, I hope they all find peace.
But not Mr Kiernan himself, he deserves no peace.

McCrack

Candie wrote: »

A suspended sentence for terrorizing and abusing kids, stealing their safety and innocence, blighting their adult lives and causing them untold anguish, anxiety, fear and unhappiness is not commensurate with the crime.

I understand he's old and frail, but he deserves some kind of meaningful punishment for justice to be done and to be seen to be done, and to make the victims ordeal in coming forward and exposing their pain worth the cost. They must be wondering why they put themselves through it.

Yes well you can be assured the Court was well appraised of his various medical conditions along with his advanced years and that the prison setting doesnt have the medical facilities to deal with. Prisons are not hospitals or nursing homes.

There were unique considerations with this case that are not usually present with other similar cases hence the suspension of the sentence which I think was the correct decision in the circumstances

.......

Edward M wrote: »

He has a family too, his wife still lives with him, he has a son and daughter, both they and the wife are very nice ordinary people.

Theres nothing ordinary about staying living with a convicted pedophile. This man has already done time for other offences. He is a monster. Yet he has a wife who chooses to live with him? Unbelievable.

eviltwin

....... wrote: »

Theres nothing ordinary about staying living with a convicted pedophile. This man has already done time for other offences. He is a monster. Yet he has a wife who chooses to live with him? Unbelievable.

I've seen it in my own family. My sister in law stood by my paedophile brother, she was young with no children and could have started over but chose to stay. I can't understand it. I guess love really is blind.

.......

eviltwin wrote: »

I've seen it in my own family. My sister in law stood by my paedophile brother, she was young with no children and could have started over but chose to stay. I can't understand it. I guess love really is blind.

Ive seen it too.

But I would not regard those who stay in a marriage or relationship with a convicted pedophile as ordinary decent people.

Deluded enablers more like.

idnkph

Sometimes I think the Nigerians have it right. They function on a jungle justice where the community get to decide the sentence/punishment.
Good idea to go through the courts and when there is a conviction throw the guilty party to the lions so to speak

sbsquarepants

....... wrote: »

Theres nothing ordinary about staying living with a convicted pedophile. This man has already done time for other offences. He is a monster. Yet he has a wife who chooses to live with him? Unbelievable.

This is how I see it too.

His family can't be blamed for what he done before they were on the scene, but they can and should be judged for how they reacted once they found out.

My father is getting on (Mid 70's now) if I found out in the morning that he had raped kids in the 60's or 70's before I was born, we'd be finished. He'd never see me nor my kids again, no ifs ands or buts.

Scum is scum regardless of family ties. Some crimes are just too heinous to ever forgive.

Edward M

sbsquarepants wrote: »

This is how I see it too.

His family can't be blamed for what he done before they were on the scene, but they can and should be judged for how they reacted once they found out.

My father is getting on (Mid 70's now) if I found out in the morning that he had raped kids in the 60's or 70's before I was born, we'd be finished. He'd never see me nor my kids again, no ifs ands or buts.

Scum is scum regardless of family ties. Some crimes are just too heinous to ever forgive.

I'm not sure of the relationships between them now, his kids no longer live with them though.
His wife is as far as I'm aware his carer.
Its OK to pontificate, but maybe she has no where else to go anyway.
If he has never harmed them I doubt if they could kick him out the house.
There are many permeations here that don't fit in with normal situations.
I for one wouldn't condemn her for being in her home.

And I'd agree with your sentiment BTW, that'd be me too.