Japanese Spitz and working full-time

firefish

Ok, ok, I know this is yet another can we get a dog if we’re both working full-time - but I’m just trying to see if this could work at all.
We would have either a minder or au pair who would be working probably Monday-Tuesday from 2-6, and full-time wed-fri, so there should be someone about the house a fair bit. When the kids no longer need childcare (in about 10 years) we would probably get a dog walker once a day. I would look to get the puppy during the school holidays, take 2 weeks off and then make sure there’s always someone around til he’s at least 4 months, by which stage he would hopefully be ok with being left for 4 hours. Ultimately I would like the dog being ok to be left for around 6ish hours if need be (so if need be in the future we wouldn’t be prevented from having a minder just in the afternoons). Does this sound like it would work?

firefish

Also I really like the look of Japanese Spitzes, but a lot of the websites say they can be prone to seperation anxiety. Does this mean they can’t even be left for the 4-6 hours that many websites say is fine for adult dogs?
Does anyone have experience of this breed?

em_cat

Ok I’ll start this off, getting a dog because you like the look of it is a horrible idea and irresponsible. You seem to have a very busy hypothetical life and tbh I’m not confident you really have the time to invest in any breed in order to avoid separation anxiety, displacement behavioural issues or at the very least have time for the dog.

Do you expect that the dog will magically be house trained, resilent enough to not have behavioural issues, after 2 weeks during the holidays?

puppieperson1

get a fish or else 2 dogs 1 dog is cruel i have 3 and work full time but i pay someone to take them for 5 hours a day 25 hours a week, costly but they are sentient beings and they are happy and i can work in peace !

em_cat

I would think any dog is a bad idea imo.

There’s too much speculation in the OPs post to really offer proper advice.

Of course it’s doable, but is in the interest of the dog, I don’t think so.

We have a lot of neighbours who have a dog or 2 that bark incessantly all day b/c it was bought on impulse and the family have no time for it/ them because they have to both work and the kids are in school. Also they’ve a heep of behavioural issues as well.

firefish

Re liking the look of the JP, I didn’t so much mean that it’s pretty (although it is) but that it looks like it would meet all my criteria:
- very kid-friendly (essential - although I know no dog is bullet-proof
- affectionate, nice nature
- small enough (urban dog) to go on the DART, be easily transported by car, and possibly even by bicycle basket
- active enough to accompany my husband on his quite fast 20-45 minute runs, but not requiring a Husky/collie 2 hours exercise a day.

I would ask for other suitable breeds of dog, but it looks like the outcome of the thread will be that I shouldn’t get any dog.

firefish

We are very busy with kids and work, that I can’t deny - although on the plus side, it does mean our social life is non-existent so we won’t be out gallivanting without the dog! My husband works irregular hours and is often home during the day, he also goes for runs, so would take the dog with him.
I guess I just wanted to know if a dog could come to a household where there is someone there most of the time because of childcare being provided in the home.

The post isn’t really speculative - this is pretty much our set-up.
Re puppy, my husband has most of August off. Ideally, we would get the puppy at a time when the first 8 weeks includes August. If you add the 2 weeks I would take, plus some cover by relatives we would intend an owner/relative to be there in addition to the childcarer for all of the crucial socialization window to 16 weeks.

Cherry Blossom

A dog can be gradually acclimatised to being left alone for short periods. Is your au pair a dog person? How do they feel about house training someone elses dog as part of their job?

The only experience I have of Japanese spitz is a stray that was running around here for a while. It was a very nervous dog and kid aggressive. My guess is it was running loose from a house with kids that probably were not very nice to it.

em_cat

firefish wrote: »

Re liking the look of the JP, I didn’t so much mean that it’s pretty (although it is) but that it looks like it would meet all my criteria:
- very kid-friendly (essential - although I know no dog is bullet-proof
- affectionate, nice nature
- small enough (urban dog) to go on the DART, be easily transported by car, and possibly even by bicycle basket
- active enough to accompany my husband on his quite fast 20-45 minute runs, but not requiring a Husky/collie 2 hours exercise a day.

I would ask for other suitable breeds of dog, but it looks like the outcome of the thread will be that I shouldn’t get any dog.

Well it really depends on just how much time you’d have for it, you sound as if you have very limited time and didn’t mention if you planned on getting your children involved in the upbringing, training, minding ect. This is what shaped my initial reply.

Any dog can be kid friendly, it depends on how it is reared, your children will need to learn to respect its boundaries, not to tease it, chase it, pull at it or have it chase them until it understands its game and has been trained not to nip.

The only experience I have of JSpitz is through friends that don’t have children. Although they are lovely and well behaved dogs, they are considered high maintenance because of the grooming also they have cat like bone structure in their legs so may not be ideal for running with your husband.

I would talk to a few adapt trainers and try to find people with different small breeds. Don’t rely on the opinions of the internet.

firefish

Our current minder is a dog person (has her own) and (if we were to get a dog) it would be a job requirement for any future au pair. I wouldn’t expect any au pair to toilet train hence making sure someone else is there at the start. The JP (according to online descriptions) is meant to be quite intelligent and easy to train - is it realistic to think the bulk of house-training could be done by 16 weeks, bar a few accidents?
Sorry to hear about that stray. I see there’s an event coming up where reps from the JP of Ireland will be (as will be other breed of associations). I was thinking of going to discuss the breed, together with our set-up, but won’t if we’re being totally stupid. The breeders might tell us to eff-off of course and that will be that. I won’t get a DoneDeal dog and a rescue would turn us down for the full-time work and small kids - not sure I would trust the breeding and temperament of a rescue near small kids any way.

Cherry Blossom

If you don't mind the long hair, swing by the Sheltie stand too if there is one. Mine is excellent with kids and doesn't mind being left alone 4 hours a day, he is rarely left alone longer than that. They are sensitive little dogs though and a gentle training regime is required and a gentle hand when dealing with them ie. no shouting, tapping on the nose etc.

DBB

I don't agree that you're unsuitable to own a dog op! However, I do feel that you need to choose your dog carefully.
I'm not so sure that a puppy-puppy would work, as your window is possibly a bit tight after your proposed purchase date.
But... Here's a thing... It is perfectly feasible to source a slightly older dog from a breeder, as in, a young adult of maybe 6-12 months that the breeder was holding onto to see would it make show grade, but it doesn't. If you get the right breeder, these can be cracking dogs, as they've had quite a lot of handling, have seen a bit of life, but are also over the worst bits of puppydom... The chewing and the housetraining! But again... The caveat is that you MUST find a breeder who's really aware of socialisation, and has and is exposing their youngster to a life similar-ish to your own, including living with children.
You may also get breeders with slightly older pups being returned to them because their first home didn't work out... But you'd need to satisfy yourself that the reasons for this were not the fault of the dog.
If you're looking for a dog that'll fit into a basket on a bike, you'll need to get yourself a sizeable basket to fit a JS! They're light and nimble, but to my mind are too long and tall to fit in a basket. They are also serious moulters. And barkers. Fun lil dogs though.
There is a girl who was running a rescue for them who'll have handled a more diverse range of them than most. She'd be well worth chatting to, to get the real, unbiased lowdown on the breed, and she may also know some breeders who are worth contacting. We can't link you to rescues here, but you'll find her if you root with Google.
For the record, as I understand it, there'll be two days in the week that your dog will be alone for about 6 hours... Is that right? If so, I run a rescue, and I certainly would not be ruling you out, not by any means. It'd have to be a dog that I know is okay about being left, plus of course being child-friendly and sociable enough to adapt easily to being cared for by a number of different people. With the right dog and commitment from all of you, I see no reason why this can't work out

em_cat

Cherry Blossom wrote: »

If you don't mind the long hair, swing by the Sheltie stand too if there is one. Mine is excellent with kids and doesn't mind being left alone 4 hours a day, he is rarely left alone longer than that. They are sensitive little dogs though and a gentle training regime is required and a gentle hand when dealing with them ie. no shouting, tapping on the nose etc.

I absolutely LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE Shelties. We had two when I was young. The first one, Abby, was my nanny, she learned my walking route to and from school and was always with me to and fro. She would take & collect me from school, sports and pretty much everything.

I’ve always referred to them as Nanny dogs.

OP, you provided more info and I thought the same thing look into Shelties.

Cherry Blossom

Sorry OP, just for clarification sake, I assumed it's Pet Expo, the event you mentioned.

firefish

Hi Cherry, it is the Pet Expo. Unfortunately from the website it doesn’t look like there will be Shetland sheepdogs but thanks for the tip, I’ve just been reading a bit about them, and they sound lovely! I think I hadn’t thought about them because I kinda had them in the same category as border collies, who I would have grown up with, and would not consider small-child friendly, city dogs. But Shelties look different! How much exercise do they need? And does your dog bark a lot (JPs are known for that too, I think)?
Thanks all for your advice. It would be max 5-6 hours once or twice a week, usually less as my husband could be home or I could pop home at lunchtime. I will be very careful before I do anything as I know how huge a commitment this is. Like having a third child!

Cherry Blossom

Shelties can do with as much exercise as you want to give them. They will hike for hours or just go for a quick spin around the block if the weather isn't ideal or you just don't have the time on a particular day.

Mine gives a warning bark if someone is at the door or he's in a different room and I turn the radio or TV on and he hears a disembodied strange voice. He comes to investigate and doesn't bother any more when he realises where the noise is coming from. I have worked hard though when they were young to train my dogs to quiet on command.

The downsides are that he is a little nervous of strange men, he just tries to hide behind me if they pay him any attention and he is big on trying to chase cars on quiet roads so I keep him on a lead. He doesn't bother with them on busy roads in the town for some reason, just on our quiet rural roads. Those are the only issues he has.

Sheepdish1

firefish wrote: »

Our current minder is a dog person (has her own) and (if we were to get a dog) it would be a job requirement for any future au pair. I wouldn’t expect any au pair to toilet train hence making sure someone else is there at the start. The JP (according to online descriptions) is meant to be quite intelligent and easy to train - is it realistic to think the bulk of house-training could be done by 16 weeks, bar a few accidents?
Sorry to hear about that stray. I see there’s an event coming up where reps from the JP of Ireland will be (as will be other breed of associations). I was thinking of going to discuss the breed, together with our set-up, but won’t if we’re being totally stupid. The breeders might tell us to eff-off of course and that will be that. I won’t get a DoneDeal dog and a rescue would turn us down for the full-time work and small kids - not sure I would trust the breeding and temperament of a rescue near small kids any way.

Hi OP. It’s good you are asking for advice in relation to getting a dog but most people don’t understand what a big commitment it is to have and keep a dog.

Depending on the age of your children you will need constant supervision of dog and management as it’s not safe to leave dogs and young children alone. Ever. no matter what the breed / temperment of dog is.

In relation to long term commitment...you need to be realistic and commit to expected life span of animal....

You also need to factor in food , vet checks, pet insurance, non routine medical eg dentals etc, vaccines and breed dependent you will have grooming costs every 6-8 weeks which isn’t cheap.

You need to factor in cost of dog being walked or minded on some days too....boarding prices holidays is also *very* expensive.

A rescue won’t turn you down because you work full time or have kids, they will be realistic and fair to you and a dog otherwise the dog will likely end back up in a rescue.

After costs you need to factor how much time you can give to the animal. In relation to the dog and training...a dog will need more stimulation than an hour walk a day for example. If not they can become destructive and develop other behavioural problems. So many people get dogs and think if they train them for first couple of months and that’s it but they really need nurturing and training ongoing.

It would be really wise to foster a dog for a month to see the commitment involved and then make your decision. I think if more people did this there would be less dogs ending up in shelters. I always feel sorry for dogs barking all day, usually they are just so bored they just bark for something to do.

boomerang

We have had two Japanese Spitz in the family, one rescued and one that was purchased as a puppy. Both Daisy (now sadly passed on) and Gizmo are/were the sweetest dogs you could meet. Incredibly happy nature and love human affection. Gizmo is nine years old and will go on a mountain hikes with my brother. Giz has oodles of energy and he's got great stamina. Downsides? There will be dog hair EVERYWHERE in your house and car op, the shedding is unreal. I honestly can't stress that enough. And also they can be very barky.

Bunnyslippers

A friend of mine bought one for her 8yr old daughter, it hated being cuddled, shed for ireland, was very very barky at everything despite being walked an awful lot and didn't really like children! If I were you I'd look at a jack russell, I've had a few and have been delighted with them, our first one we used as a sheep dog as well and she had well over 100 words she understood - very smart little dogs! They're friendly - although as others have said depends on their upbringing, plus pretty low maintenance coat wise, just the occasional brush and a bath and are pretty compact little dogs that will run all day or sleep if the weather is rubbish! Maybe look at an older rescue dog - i.e.. around 1yr old that way you've missed the puppy stage - there are tons in rescues.
Or get a couple of cats!!;)

ace_irl

If I was in your position I would consider a whippet. They are fantastic dogs and very easy going (IME). I had one and she was the easiest thing to look after. They're very good with children and they're happy to run around the garden chasing a ball. We use to play tennis with our girl and she loved it.

A few of my friends have adopted them over the years and they've been very good dogs for someone that has a busier lifestyle. Once they get a nice run in they're happy to lounge around. They also are fantastic family pets, very gentle and placid.

firefish

For some reason (and I’m sure your dog is lovely) jack Russell’s are the one breed I’m really not fond of. Might a few yappy, grumpy ones in my time (goes to show how much is down to an individual dog’s nature). Whippets do seem lovely, though I know my husband would take a lot of persuading. I really like the sound of Shelties! Also when I showed my husband they were definitely his favourite, being small but a “proper” dog (I have been quite firm that I don’t think a big dog would suit which is what he would really hanker for, he doesn’t like toy breeds). They actually seem to have a lot of common with spitzes, including the potential drawbacks - the barking and the shedding. We live in a terraced house so it would be important to train re barking. Is the shedding from a Sheltie really bad?

firefish

Also what is clear from these posts (apart from the commitment, and I really need to be sure on this) is the importance of a dog’s temperament (eg both lovely spitzes and unfriendly spitzes mentioned above). How can you “temperament check” a breeder’s dogs? What questions to ask - and would they answer them truthfully? Do you ask around - who to ask? I know also how very important the puppy socialization window is too to temperament.

Cherry Blossom

My Sheltie sheds a little and gets a daily brush. To be honest most of the hair only ever appears on the brush but mine is neutered and that affects the coat.

There is a UK based forum where I found my breeder. There are a few Irish breeders on there and once you start looking around you get a feel for what sort of breeders people are. The breeder I got my dog from breed for type and for temperament. They are based in Antrim and I can recommend them (if they are still breeding, their website and Facebook page have been quiet in recent years). If you want their details I can PM them to you. If they are not still breeding they can recommend someone to you.

em_cat

firefish wrote: »

Also what is clear from these posts (apart from the commitment, and I really need to be sure on this) is the importance of a dog’s temperament (eg both lovely spitzes and unfriendly spitzes mentioned above). How can you “temperament check” a breeder’s dogs? What questions to ask - and would they answer them truthfully? Do you ask around - who to ask? I know also how very important the puppy socialization window is too to temperament.

It’s great that you seem to be taking your time and are researching. I don’t remember our Shelties being big shedders as such, but they got a good brushing everyday. On the barking, we trained ours to speak and quite. I will say though they did ‘sing’ at times.

Always Tired

you mentioned that because you'll have a child minder or au pair, 'someone will be about the house a good bit'.

why do you assume this au pair will be/should be helping out with the dog?

bilbot79

Why did it never used to be a crime for a dog to be on it's own minding the gaff when everyone was out? Like do guard dogs start bawling their eyes out if they don't see an intruder for 8 hours?

DBB

bilbot79 wrote: »

Why did it never used to be a crime for a dog to be on it's own minding the gaff when everyone was out? Like do guard dogs start bawling their eyes out if they don't see an intruder for 8 hours?

I realise you're being facetious, but there are quite a few reasons why it seems like dogs didn't worry about being alone years ago.
For starters, when I was a kid, there was almost always a parent at home raising the kids, and pet dogs consequently had a lot more company. So the behavioural issues we see these days with dogs being left alone for many hours are very much related to the modern lifestyle of both parents/owners having to work.
For seconders, it's well recognised now that there are far, far more people owning dogs that perhaps don't have the best lifestyle to suit dog ownership, than there was 20+ years ago.
In addition, research into dog emotions has really only taken off in the past 20ish years. We now know, through research, that the majority of dogs suffer from some level of distress when left alone. Not all of them shred the place or bark the place down... But they do feel stressed. As with humans, chronic stress will affect them, in some way, somewhere down the line. Of course we don't see dogs bursting into tears, because that's a human expression of emotion. However, now that there's pretty robust empirical understanding of how dogs express themselves, a lot of them do actually behave in a way that one could consider equivalent to a human crying in frustration or distress.

firefish

Hi Always Tired, with our current minder, she would need to be happy before we got a dog. For any future au pair, we would be clear up-front - she shouldn’t have to do much more than take the kids and dog to the nearest green to throw a ball around for 15-30 mins. The dog would have the child members of his pack around, their presence hopefully would stave off boredom and loneliness.
Anyway, I’m so knackered this morning after a sleepless night with a toddler that I’ve mentally moved any dog plans from summer 2019 to summer 2020 earliest! Will still go to the pet expo though, no harm in forward planning! My adult lifestyle has been so wildly incompatible with a dog (long hours/travel/party followed by work/tiny children) that I had deeply buried my childhood/teenage dog obsession but when my husband raised it again a couple of weeks ago it suddenly occurred to me that it might actually be possible - I’ve been obsessed researching ever since!

erica74

firefish wrote: »

Hi Always Tired, with our current minder, she would need to be happy before we got a dog. For any future au pair, we would be clear up-front - she shouldn’t have to do much more than take the kids and dog to the nearest green to throw a ball around for 15-30 mins. The dog would have the child members of his pack around, their presence hopefully would stave off boredom and loneliness.
Anyway, I’m so knackered this morning after a sleepless night with a toddler that I’ve mentally moved any dog plans from summer 2019 to summer 2020 earliest! Will still go to the pet expo though, no harm in forward planning! My adult lifestyle has been so wildly incompatible with a dog (long hours/travel/party followed by work/tiny children) that I had deeply buried my childhood/teenage dog obsession but when my husband raised it again a couple of weeks ago it suddenly occurred to me that it might actually be possible - I’ve been obsessed researching ever since!

You'll know when the time is right (like with anything). Maybe it took a sleepless night for you to really analyse your home situation and consider all factors. Maybe in 2019, you can have another look at everything.

firefish

Cherry Blossom wrote: »

My Sheltie sheds a little and gets a daily brush. To be honest most of the hair only ever appears on the brush but mine is neutered and that affects the coat.

There is a UK based forum where I found my breeder. There are a few Irish breeders on there and once you start looking around you get a feel for what sort of breeders people are. The breeder I got my dog from breed for type and for temperament. They are based in Antrim and I can recommend them (if they are still breeding, their website and Facebook page have been quiet in recent years). If you want their details I can PM them to you. If they are not still breeding they can recommend someone to you.

Hi Cherry, it would be great if you could PM me those details, thanks a million.

Sheepdish1

firefish wrote: »

Hi Always Tired, with our current minder, she would need to be happy before we got a dog. For any future au pair, we would be clear up-front - she shouldn’t have to do much more than take the kids and dog to the nearest green to throw a ball around for 15-30 mins. The dog would have the child members of his pack around, their presence hopefully would stave off boredom and loneliness.
Anyway, I’m so knackered this morning after a sleepless night with a toddler that I’ve mentally moved any dog plans from summer 2019 to summer 2020 earliest! Will still go to the pet expo though, no harm in forward planning! My adult lifestyle has been so wildly incompatible with a dog (long hours/travel/party followed by work/tiny children) that I had deeply buried my childhood/teenage dog obsession but when my husband raised it again a couple of weeks ago it suddenly occurred to me that it might actually be possible - I’ve been obsessed researching ever since!

I think you are making the right decision putting it off until your kids are a bit older. It sounds like it would just add a lot of work onto you at the moment and will be another being to play with, walk , get minded, clean up after etc

Having a dog is sooooo much commitment. I too would love one but I know I would be setting myself up for failure at this stage in my life, I am just too busy and don't have the time to look after one the way I feel I should. You will probably find that the dog will wake you up early that the kids don't no matter how rare that is

Another positive thing is when your kids are a little older they will understand better how to be with the dog. They will also remember the excitement of getting a dog etc which would be lovely for them to experience imo

Cherry Blossom

Something odd is going on with my Pms OP. I sent you two yesterday and only one was showing in my sent box. I just sent you another and it sent to myself :rolleyes:
I think I have forwarded it on this time. Can you please let me know if you get it.

Mikefitzs

As a Japanese Spitz owner and breeder I can say with my hand on my heart that I've never met such a playful affectionate breed. Our 2 sleep in in the bedroom and they have the run of the house while we're gone to work. They will chew whatever they come across, shoes, hoover tubes,cables but once we spotted it everything is put away and they have their toys. They are not whining barky dogs while we are home or
away, I know this because I have a camera set up watching them. If anyone comes into the driveway they do create a racket. They are absolutely fine around kids but they do tend to be protective of their owners. They love being out playing and will follow a ball all day long. I wouldn't put them swimming though, I'd be afraid with a heavy coat they might go down in the water. Just as every dog sheds these shed more and because they are white it's noticeable on black clothes. Give them a brush every fortnight and they're easy manage. We have never bathed ours and it's not recommended. I don't know where the idea of so much maintenance comes from, not our experience. Also they are known to be one of the healthiest breed and longest living. They do a big shed of the undercoat once a year, this is major for up to 10 days but if you groom them every 2 to 3 days during that period it's not so bad.
Best of luck whatever you decide.

firefish

That sounds lovely Mike, perfect for us. Sadly, there was no Japanese Spitz stand at the Pet Expo. We met one JP with runny eyes, and his owner told us she was snappy when younger, so that put us off a bit. I do think its worth me contacting the JP of Ireland group to find out more - do you have any contacts?

We met the most gorgeous Rough Collie at the breed stands, however, I was entranced. So beautiful, and so gentle with my toddler. Her owner said she loved her walks obviously, but also happy to relax in the house. Apparently she was the runt of the litter, but still bigger than I was thinking. My husband is fonder of the big dogs, but I just think of our small garden, my small car, the DART, our local cafe that only takes small dogs - also more hair, poo, food!

If shelties were like that collie, but smaller, that would be perfect. A lot of (American) websites say they’re too hyper and sensitive to be great with small children - maybe American shelties are different?! The one Sheltie owner we met said their dog was fantastic with children, which chimes with what has been said here on this thread. Definitely more research on breeders required.

cocker5

firefish wrote: »

That sounds lovely Mike, perfect for us. Sadly, there was no Japanese Spitz stand at the Pet Expo. We met one JP with runny eyes, and his owner told us she was snappy when younger, so that put us off a bit. I do think its worth me contacting the JP of Ireland group to find out more - do you have any contacts?

We met the most gorgeous Rough Collie at the breed stands, however, I was entranced. So beautiful, and so gentle with my toddler. Her owner said she loved her walks obviously, but also happy to relax in the house. Apparently she was the runt of the litter, but still bigger than I was thinking. My husband is fonder of the big dogs, but I just think of our small garden, my small car, the DART, our local cafe that only takes small dogs - also more hair, poo, food!

If shelties were like that collie, but smaller, that would be perfect. A lot of (American) websites say they’re too hyper and sensitive to be great with small children - maybe American shelties are different?! The one Sheltie owner we met said their dog was fantastic with children, which chimes with what has been said here on this thread. Definitely more research on breeders required.

OP personally I think your looking into the breed too much ... all dogs are different and have different personalities.. it has less to do with the actual breed and more to do with genetics, proper amount of socializing when younger ..

Example - I have a male black cocker ... nearly 14 - he is the gentlest soul ever.. has never growled or so much as snapped as long as we have had him. He is perfectly behaved in public completely non reactive .. he loves lots of exercise .. even at his age now!

based on the above my sister wanted a cocker .. she got a lovely golden one... she’s 4 now.. she is nothing like my guy .. while she is a lovely dog she has far less patience than my guy, has snapped from time to time (not entirely her fault) she’s extremely food driven and resource guards from time to time ..

My point is all dogs are different .. you should be looking for a dog that suits your lifestyle not a breed .. as there is no single rule.

Looking to get a dog based on looks is never a good idea to be honest

firefish

Cocker5, you’re probably right. I can be a bit obsessive and over-research. But if you’re getting a puppy, and hoping to socialize it right, then really the only way you have of guessing what it’s like when it gets older is to look at breed characteristics? A snappy cocker seems unlucky though, I would have thought they

firefish

Were friendly, if rather energetic dogs.

Mikefitzs

We found ours on Donedeal definitely worth a look.

firefish wrote: »

That sounds lovely Mike, perfect for us. Sadly, there was no Japanese Spitz stand at the Pet Expo. We met one JP with runny eyes, and his owner told us she was snappy when younger, so that put us off a bit. I do think its worth me contacting the JP of Ireland group to find out more - do you have any contacts?

We met the most gorgeous Rough Collie at the breed stands, however, I was entranced. So beautiful, and so gentle with my toddler. Her owner said she loved her walks obviously, but also happy to relax in the house. Apparently she was the runt of the litter, but still bigger than I was thinking. My husband is fonder of the big dogs, but I just think of our small garden, my small car, the DART, our local cafe that only takes small dogs - also more hair, poo, food!

If shelties were like that collie, but smaller, that would be perfect. A lot of (American) websites say they’re too hyper and sensitive to be great with small children - maybe American shelties are different?! The one Sheltie owner we met said their dog was fantastic with children, which chimes with what has been said here on this thread. Definitely more research on breeders required.

cocker5

Mikefitzs wrote: »

We found ours on Donedeal definitely worth a look.

firefish wrote: »

That sounds lovely Mike, perfect for us. Sadly, there was no Japanese Spitz stand at the Pet Expo. We met one JP with runny eyes, and his owner told us she was snappy when younger, so that put us off a bit. I do think its worth me contacting the JP of Ireland group to find out more - do you have any contacts?

We met the most gorgeous Rough Collie at the breed stands, however, I was entranced. So beautiful, and so gentle with my toddler. Her owner said she loved her walks obviously, but also happy to relax in the house. Apparently she was the runt of the litter, but still bigger than I was thinking. My husband is fonder of the big dogs, but I just think of our small garden, my small car, the DART, our local cafe that only takes small dogs - also more hair, poo, food!

If shelties were like that collie, but smaller, that would be perfect. A lot of (American) websites say they’re too hyper and sensitive to be great with small children - maybe American shelties are different?! The one Sheltie owner we met said their dog was fantastic with children, which chimes with what has been said here on this thread. Definitely more research on breeders required.

Dondeal = puppy farm and back yard breeder haven .. keep supporting this awful trade

Just on the snappy cocker comment .. she is not a snappy dog but has snapped two very different things .. she has less patience and less tolerant than mine .. my entire point breeds traits are not accurate in a lot of cases

firefish

No, I know, you can’t predict. However, given I’m not sure about rescue, and not doing DoneDeal, then I need to decide on a breed to know what breeders to approach!
Now if that Rough Collie from Saturday was having puppies...small puppies...The owner said she slept on the floor beside her as a puppy when she was born to make sure she was ok. That’s the kind of house I want a puppy to come from (I see some of the breeders keep their dogs in kennels outside).

cocker5

firefish wrote: »

No, I know, you can’t predict. However, given I’m not sure about rescue, and not doing DoneDeal, then I need to decide on a breed to know what breeders to approach!
Now if that Rough Collie from Saturday was having puppies...small puppies...The owner said she slept on the floor beside her as a puppy when she was born to make sure she was ok. That’s the kind of house I want a puppy to come from (I see some of the breeders keep their dogs in kennels outside).

Have you googled collies in general? Super super smart dogs, the can be quiet destructive if not mentally stimulated and using their brains etc.. they needs a lot of mental stimulation that’s all.

cocker5

https://www.yourpurebredpuppy.com/reviews/collies.html

https://www.petwave.com/Dogs/Breeds/Collie/Personality.aspx

Cherry Blossom

OP breeding from runts is an extremely irresponsible thing to do. Resulting pups would fall outside of breed norms for size and this can result in health issues. This is what bybs do to produce teacups and miniatures and the likes. Stick with breeds that are normally the appropriate size for your circumstances.

cocker5

What age are your kids OP?

Sorry if you already mentioned it above

DBB

I don't have any issue at all with someone choosing a particular breed because they like the look of them. I love the look of some breeds, and don't much like the look of others.
That said, it shouldn't be the only qualifying feature of choosing a new pet dog! I don't get the impression that OP is basing their choice just on looks, as they have identified a number of temperament traits that they would prefer.
Fair enough.
If one of the breeds you like the look of happens to be more likely to have the required temperament traits, then happy days.
I don't agree that temperament and behaviour is all down to proper socialisation... It's simply not. There is no doubt at all that certain breeds have certain genetic behavioural switches that are more likely to switched on because of the breed they are. Terriers are more inclined to be fiery, for example, and despite loads of socialisation will still be fiery. I know lines of GSDs that are incredibly gentle dogs, so much so that even with minimal socialisation, they still would be vanishingly unlikely to react aggressively towards people. Cavaliers are much more likely to be gentle, pet dogs, because they're Cavaliers, and that's what Cavaliers do.
Socialisation is important... It is vital. But without a good genetic foundation, there's only so much that socialisation can do. And each breed is genetically more likely to behave the way others of its breed do. There's no escaping that.
Also, consider this... Fearfulness is the most strongly heritable emotional trait/behaviour in dogs. If a pup is born to a fearful/anxious mother or father, or a grandparent was fearful/anxious, then you can do all the socialising in the world... You're still significantly more likely to end up with a fearful pup. Very skilled socialisation may take the edge off it, but such pups are genetically pre-programmed to react fearfully to anything they perceive as threatening.
The line of GSDs that I refer to above is a good example of something you need to consider op... Some breeds, and some lines of some breeds, have moved away somewhat over the decades from their working ancestry, have been bred to be less worky and drivey, and more pet-like. I would consider Rough Collies and Shelties to fall into this category. In other words, it's easier to find a pet-ified Rough Collie or Sheltie than it is to find, say, a pet-ified Malinois, or Husky. The latter breeds just haven't had time yet for their worky instincts to have been dumbed down enough to make them ideal first-time family pets. Yes... I know there are individual exceptions, but that's all they are... Exceptions. For now anyway.

My feeling is that some lines of terriers, some lines of Cockers, some lines of other working breeds, are further down this road than others of their breed, and this is one reason why some are great pets and others are not, and THIS is why you've got to source a great breeder. One that is very deliberately breeding nice, healthy, calm, gentle PET dogs. NOT a breeder who's breeding them because their mother or father was a good ratter, or an excellent guard dog, or a champion herder. Do you see what I mean? You want someone who breeds soft oul eejits.

The above is a reason why behaviourists take some issue with kennel club breed standards such as "aloofness", "fearlessness", "stubborn", "independent", "courageous", "hard working" etc still being a requirement for any particular breed, yet these are the broodstock that families are sent to to buy a new pet dog! These are prize-winning dogs, they must make the best pets, right? Not necessarily. The mindset amongst a lot of breeders and kennel clubs needs to change if their main market is the pet dog market. The above adjectives are not conducive to a good, family pet dog.

Then there's the other type of breeder, totally opposite mindset to the above, who's breeding pups, and selecting the parents based entirely on the fact that they happen to be the same breed as each other. Or that they're two different breeds who can create cute puppies with funny names. No thoughts given regarding health, temperament, upbringing and socialisation. This is sometimes due to genuine lack of knowledge (in which case, they shouldn't be breeding any animals), and sometimes due to deliberate, profit-driven production... Sourcing good parents, good health care, and proper socialisation cost time and money, and who cares about the future dog and its family, as long as the money exchanges hands before the unwitting new owner become aware they've bought a whole heap of trouble. Remember... These puppy farms are LEGAL once they're appropriately licensed under the dog breeding legislation.
So... The message is always the same. Research your breed, research your breeder(s), MEET your breeder(s), MEET the pups AND their mother (and preferably father... Not always possible)... And I mean MEET the mother as in, spend time with her, get to know her.
And the absolute golden, golden, golden rule... Be prepared to walk away.
If you are denied any of the above, for ANY reason, walk away.

firefish

Hi Cocker, rough collies aren’t actually that smart, not in the top 10, and less smart not only than a border collie or Sheltie, but also a golden retriever or Labrador. Everything I’ve read indicates they’re great with kids, and they seem to be the most chill of the herding breeds. Honestly, I had totally discounted sheepdog types, because of my devoted but highly strung and definitely child unfriendly border collie, but rough collies sound like they have lovely personalities.
When I say runt, she wasn’t mini - definitely looked breed standard, but on the smaller side. That first website I’ve checked loads and it lists all potential problems - every breed I’ve checked says there might be problems if the dog is left alone too much (which is fair enough). Check out the cocker, or Labrador, for example. Or the Shelties - it straight out says not recommended for small children.
By Spring/summer 2020, my children will be 4 (or almost) and 7.

firefish

Btw, DBB, thanks for your long and useful post, I didn’t see it when I posted. I agree with so much in it (including your comments on show breeders not necessarily breeding good pets). I think I’ll spend the next year emailing and researching breeders of my shortlisted breeds - probably concentrating on Shelties (as much as we love bigger dogs, practical, not appearance, criteria, mean smaller prob best) to find a healthy “petified” puppy who might be right for us.
Thanks all for your input.

cocker5

firefish wrote: »

Hi Cocker, rough collies aren’t actually that smart, not in the top 10, and less smart not only than a border collie or Sheltie, but also a golden retriever or Labrador. Everything I’ve read indicates they’re great with kids, and they seem to be the most chill of the herding breeds. Honestly, I had totally discounted sheepdog types, because of my devoted but highly strung and definitely child unfriendly border collie, but rough collies sound like they have lovely personalities.
When I say runt, she wasn’t mini - definitely looked breed standard, but on the smaller side. That first website I’ve checked loads and it lists all potential problems - every breed I’ve checked says there might be problems if the dog is left alone too much (which is fair enough). Check out the cocker, or Labrador, for example. Or the Shelties - it straight out says not recommended for small children.
By Spring/summer 2020, my children will be 4 (or almost) and 7.

Absolutely agree with you ..

no breed in fact is 100% "suitable" for young children .. its all down to the individual dog, upbringing of both child and dog that makes it work.

Personally id wait until youngest is 5 min.. IMO young kids and puppies aren't a great combination for all sorts of reasons, then at least your youngest can help you pick your pup and it will be family decision and family dog... with very young kids its gonna be your dog... 100%

Cherry Blossom

Cocker5 the OP is looking at reputable breeders. It is most likely that the breeder will choose the right home for each pup not the other way around. If it was the case that the op got to choose the pup, letting a five year old do so is an extremely bad idea.

cocker5

Cherry Blossom wrote: »

Cocker5 the OP is looking at reputable breeders. It is most likely that the breeder will choose the right home for each pup not the other way around. If it was the case that the op got to choose the pup, letting a five year old do so is an extremely bad idea.

in all fairness I didn't mean choose the pup literally... I meant include the kids in the whole process... to ensure responsibility / combined ownership etc... not physically choose the pup... that was taken out of context.

firefish

I think whatever age the children, I’ll definitely want final choice on the pup. Asked my eldest what his favourite dog was after the Pet Expo - no hesitation - the Irish wolfhound! 😂