Dublin Bus selling some of its VTs

Stephen15

dfx- wrote: »

The new type in the thread perhaps, but almost all of them new and old single deckers alike that I was on had one set of doors, including the new shiny Airport services with a cash autofare system too.

There would be people in this forum with pitchforks outside the NTA if new buses were bought like that here.

The one single thing that is necessary is a flat fare system. Same as National Express West Midlands who are buying brand new one door buses. The VTs could have stuck around with a flat fare.

Lothian used to have dual door buses until the mid 00s when decision was made to remove them due to claims and fare evasion I believe. Difference between them and DB I think was that Lothian actually went to trouble of removing the centre doors unlike DB with the RVs which just weren't used.

The VTs are still around DB still have 50 VTs only twenty have been withdrawn under the fleet replacement programme as they were approaching 14 years old.

thomasj

Stephen15 wrote:

The VTs are still around DB still have 50 VTs only twenty have been withdrawn under the fleet replacement programme as they were approaching 14 years old.

They are and they still being put to good use on the 39As , and fill to the brim more often than not

dfx-

bk wrote: »

From a passengers perspective, single door buses are horrible. It sucks so badly to have to squeeze past all the morons who insist in hanging off the pole by the driver.

The dual door buses are so much nicer for passengers when actually used. You can get off much easier and more comfortably out of the rear door.

The SG's layout is far from perfect and they well maybe more work for drivers, but they are far nicer from the passenger perspective. A perspective that often seems to be forgotten in some of these conversations!

As now a regular user of services with single doors and old buses which is seeing growing passenger numbers, all the features of an SG you mention are just not worth the bespoke Dublin spec cost.

bk wrote: »

I'd argue that the UK is not the place we should be looking for inspiration on operating public transport. Outside of London, IME, the UK is pretty poor compared to mainland Europe.

Of course you'd argue this because the only place doing things as you would like them and how Dublin is copying is London and mainland Europe. I'm very happy with the services I've experienced outside London except Arriva areas.

I'm flying back to Dublin tonight and it feels like going back to the dark ages of physical Leap Cards, dual doors, lack of accessible seating downstairs, times for termini only and fare stages with stuffed to the gills buses.

Stephen15

dfx- wrote: »

As now a regular user of services with single doors and old buses which is seeing growing passenger numbers, all the features of an SG you mention are just not worth the bespoke Dublin spec cost.

I doubt the NTA are forking out a huge amount extra for the dual door spec. Considering that the NTA are one of Wrights largest customers I don't think it would be a very good business move to charge extra for the features requested by the NTA and they also have other spec requests such the old style front and the recessed windscreen.

Of course you'd argue this because the only place doing things as you would like them and how Dublin is copying is London and mainland Europe. I'm very happy with the services I've experienced outside London except Arriva areas.

I'm flying back to Dublin tonight and it feels like going back to the dark ages of physical Leap Cards, dual doors, lack of accessible seating downstairs, times for termini only and fare stages with stuffed to the gills buses.

Buses are only stuffed to the gills during peak times generally. I don't how the services are going back to dark ages certainly there are some remnants of the past like the backward fare structure which we are slowly but surely moving away from.

I don't see how the SG is a backward spec if the economy is going to continue to grow then standing is to be expected. I would think that the SG class are far more pleasant to stand on than an AV, AX, VT, VG, GT or EV and have a nice spacious lower saloon my main complaint about them is the somewhat cramped upstairs of them which the competing Enviro 400 MMC does not appear to suffer from.

Polar101

They could just get rid of the luggage space, then there would be no folded buggies and endless delays where buggies are being folded / unfolded while there is an argument ongoing about who is the most entitled to travel.

Stephen15

While the usage of dual doors by drivers has improved ten fold since their reintroduction with the GT class there are still some drivers that point blank refuse to use them I would say 8 out of 10 drivers use them nowadays at most stops. If it's there is a liability issue for some drivers to use them then how come it's perfectly fine for drivers on airport carpark shuttle buses to use three doors at a stop if it's a bendybus. I thought of this when I was on a airport shuttle recently.

Muller1991

Polar101 wrote: »

They could just get rid of the luggage space, then there would be no folded buggies and endless delays where buggies are being folded / unfolded while there is an argument ongoing about who is the most entitled to travel.

If they got rid of the luggage space what would cover the wheel arch ?

Yer Da sells Avon

Stephen15 wrote: »

While the usage of dual doors by drivers has improved ten fold since their reintroduction with the GT class there are still some drivers that point blank refuse to use them I would say 8 out of 10 drivers use them nowadays at most stops. If it's there is a liability issue for some drivers to use them then how come it's perfectly fine for drivers on airport carpark shuttle buses to use three doors at a stop if it's a bendybus. I thought of this when I was on a airport shuttle recently.

I only use them at certain stops, where it's possible to get the entire bus parallel with the kerb. Otherwise, I don't feel that the few seconds saved are worth the risk of someone face-planting themselves.

Stephen15

Yer Da sells Avon wrote: »

I only use them at certain stops, where it's possible to get the entire bus parallel with the kerb. Otherwise, I don't feel that the few seconds saved are worth the risk of someone face-planting themselves.

You're a GAI driver aren't you? To be fair most of the routes that are with GAI aren't really busy enough to require dual doors yeah there's a few places on the 75 where they are needed as there'd large volumes getting on and off such as around Dundrum whereas on the likes of the 63 or the 59 they'd be completely surplus to requirements at most stops as there'd only be one or two getting on or off most passengers go to the front doors anyway to be let off.

KD345

Stephen15 wrote: »

Buses are only stuffed to the gills during peak times generally.

I don’t know what routes you use, but you’ll find this is not the case for many parts of the city. Take a trip on a 15, 16, 25, 39a, 40, 66 or 145 any evening and you’ll see.

Both the NTA and Dublin Bus are increasing the frequency of routes specifically outside peak times to address this.

Stephen15

KD345 wrote: »

I don’t know what routes you use, but you’ll find this is not the case for many parts of the city. Take a trip on a 15, 16, 25, 39a, 40, 66 or 145 any evening and you’ll see.

Both the NTA and Dublin Bus are increasing the frequency of routes specifically outside peak times to address this.

Yes I had forgotten about that they generally busy at that time but not stuffed to the gills standing room only but plenty of room for more passengers to get on. If we want an efficient transport system I think we have to forget the notion that everyone has to get a seat and accept that one may have to stand. People aren't generally being left behind at those times not saying it doesn't happen.

Polar101

Muller1991 wrote: »

If they got rid of the luggage space what would cover the wheel arch ?

Seats usually. I'm sure you've seen buses without luggage spaces. In other cities where I've lived buses don't usually have the luggage space, nor is there an issues with folding buggies on buses.

Stephen15

Polar101 wrote: »

Seats usually. I'm sure you've seen buses without luggage spaces. In other cities where I've lived buses don't usually have the luggage space, nor is there an issues with folding buggies on buses.

They could put an area under the stairs for folded buggies and luggage like they had on the RVs there's a large amount of unused space under the stairs behind the driver which could be used either for either seating or luggage.

thomasj

Stephen15 wrote:

Yes I had forgotten about that they generally busy at that time but not stuffed to the gills standing room only but plenty of room for more passengers to get on. If we want an efficient transport system I think we have to forget the notion that everyone has to get a seat and accept that one may have to stand. People aren't generally being left behind at those times not saying it doesn't happen.

I can't testify about other routes but I can tell you that at 7.30 or 8 at night I've been left behind on the quays as a full VT flies by on the 39As

Stephen15

thomasj wrote: »

I can't testify about other routes but I can tell you that at 7.30 or 8 at night I've been left behind on the quays as a full VT flies by on the 39As

Is that a regular occurrence I've been on the 145 a few times and it was standing room only at 10pm albeit this generally happens when there's been a long gap of about 20 mins in service. Happens less now wit the 155.

Muller1991

Ive been on VTS on both the 39a and 46a after 8 and 9 in the evenings with a three bell load.

devnull

Muller1991 wrote: »

Ive been on VTS on both the 39a and 46a after 8 and 9 in the evenings with a three bell load.

I've been on about half a dozen in the past two or three months that clearly have been considered 'full' and 'three bell loads' but they were neither of those things despite the fact passengers and drivers were acting like they were, thus the true capacity of them isn't being used because of this.

The biggest problem with long vehicles like VTs that board everyone through a single door it is exceptionally rare that load is properly distributed through the bus, it's always packed at the front and spaces at the back that cannot be filled as the driver doesn't stop the bus because they consider it 'full' when it's not.

The most common behaviour on the VT which I see almost every time I am on one in peak time is people walking up the stairs, turning their head down the isle, looking the front half of the bus, seeing no seats, walking down the stairs and then gathering at the front of the bus standing at which point the driver starts skipping stops. This is a well known problem with long vehicles, which is why cities like Berlin use two staircases and multiple doors. It might reduce the theoretical capacity but it promotes proper utilisation of the the full capacity of the bus.

Meanwhile I'm sitting near the back upstairs where over a dozen seats are free but not able to be used because the bus apparently has a 'three bell load' or is 'full' and people waiting at bus stops can't get on to take such space. The number of times I've been on VTs that are actually totally full is far less than the number of times I've been on them where double figures of seats are free but the driver has gone past 'full' because of gathering at the front.

thomasj

devnull wrote:

The most common behaviour on the VT which I see almost every time I am on one in peak time is people walking up the stairs, turning their head down the isle, looking the front half of the bus, seeing no seats, walking down the stairs and then gathering at the front of the bus standing at which point the driver starts skipping stops. This is a well known problem with long vehicles, which is why cities like Berlin use two staircases and multiple doors. It might reduce the theoretical capacity but it promotes proper utilisation of the the full capacity of the bus.

And yet the best option for combatting this , the BRTs, has been rejected in favour of a smaller less capacity bus , that let's be honest may run into this same problem as the VTs down the road

dfx-

devnull wrote: »

I've been on about half a dozen in the past two or three months that clearly have been considered 'full' and 'three bell loads' but they were neither of those things despite the fact passengers and drivers were acting like they were, thus the true capacity of them isn't being used because of this.

The biggest problem with long vehicles like VTs that board everyone through a single door it is exceptionally rare that load is properly distributed through the bus, it's always packed at the front and spaces at the back that cannot be filled as the driver doesn't stop the bus because they consider it 'full' when it's not.

The most common behaviour on the VT which I see almost every time I am on one in peak time is people walking up the stairs, turning their head down the isle, looking the front half of the bus, seeing no seats, walking down the stairs and then gathering at the front of the bus standing at which point the driver starts skipping stops. This is a well known problem with long vehicles, which is why cities like Berlin use two staircases and multiple doors. It might reduce the theoretical capacity but it promotes proper utilisation of the the full capacity of the bus.

Meanwhile I'm sitting near the back upstairs where over a dozen seats are free but not able to be used because the bus apparently has a 'three bell load' or is 'full' and people waiting at bus stops can't get on to take such space. The number of times I've been on VTs that are actually totally full is far less than the number of times I've been on them where double figures of seats are free but the driver has gone past 'full' because of gathering at the front.

This is not a specific VT problem. It happens on all buses. Some people don't want to sit upstairs at the back.

You're already on a losing situation if the service depends on squeezing a few more in at the back upstairs whatever the bus. You're losing it very badly if a 100 capacity passenger bus is that full.

devnull

dfx- wrote: »

This is not a specific VT problem. It happens on all buses. Some people don't want to sit upstairs at the back.

The rate that it happens on the VTs in my experience is far higher than it operates on other vehicles as the vehicle layout promotes it. It also happens downstairs on the VTs as well, not to the same degree it does upstairs I grant you, but it us very rare for it to happen on a regular bus downstairs.

You're already on a losing situation if the service depends on squeezing a few more in at the back upstairs whatever the bus. You're losing it very badly if a 100 capacity passenger bus is that full.

The argument that you seem to be making is that more capacity has to be added to make up for the fact that all of the existing capacity is not being used because of the layout of the bus. You'e losing very badly if you're investing in a high capacity bus and are happy that the layout is so flawed that 10% to 15% of the capacity won't be used. It shows that there is a serious flaw somewhere.

Just keep adding more resources or more capacity to avoid fixing the underlying problem is typical of Ireland and is one of the factors as to why this country struggled in the aftermath of the banking crisis, because after all, who cares about making things work efficiently, after all, the money to continually spend on more resources will never run out, will it?

Stephen15

thomasj wrote: »

And yet the best option for combatting this , the BRTs, has been rejected in favour of a smaller less capacity bus , that let's be honest may run into this same problem as the VTs down the road

The BRTs didn't really go far enough and only served a few corridors.

Stephen15

thomasj wrote: »

And yet the best option for combatting this , the BRTs, has been rejected in favour of a smaller less capacity bus , that let's be honest may run into this same problem as the VTs down the road

Not really as a bendybus with boarding at all three or four doors isn't going to have problems with an unevenly distributed load with crowding up around the driver. The idea of the BRT would that it would operate like a train or a tram but as a bus.

thomasj

Stephen15 wrote:

The BRTs didn't really go far enough and only served a few corridors.

But with the focus on network direct so much on improving the infrastructure BRTs could have been put on more routes.

thomasj

Stephen15 wrote:

Not really as a bendybus with boarding at all three or four doors isn't going to have problems with an unevenly distributed load with crowding up around the driver. The idea of the BRT would that it would operate like a train or a tram but as a bus.

Sorry if my post was badly put but that was exactly my point.

Charles Babbage

devnull wrote: »

The rate that it happens on the VTs in my experience is far higher than it operates on other vehicles as the vehicle layout promotes it. It also happens downstairs on the VTs as well, not to the same degree it does upstairs I grant you, but it us very rare for it to happen on a regular bus downstairs.

Maybe you need an electronic display showing how many seats are free upstairs? Either put a sensor on the seat or have a counter up and down?

punisher5112

Charles Babbage wrote: »

Maybe you need an electronic display showing how many seats are free upstairs? Either put a sensor on the seat or have a counter up and down?

GT and sg have a monitor.

Stephen15

One thing I've noticed on buses on the continent is that there isn't a white line at the front of the bus around the driver. The assault screen wraps around the windscreen so as standing passengers are not blocking the drivers view. This means you can have standing passengers right up to the front doors meaning extra room to fit more on standing.

This would probably be too much work for a retrofit but could be considered for future deliveries. Obivously something would have to be done to prevent people crowding around the doors and they would use this option if there was no other space.

Most buses on the continent and in London have the wheelchair ramp at the middle doors which makes things easier for wheelchair to access the wheelchair space without having to use the aisle. On a London bus the wheelchair space is located on the drivers side where the buggy space would be on a DB bus while the buggy space is located where the wheelchair would be along with two seats.

AlekSmart

Interesting to note,that whilst the NTA proceed with restraint,it's Singaporean counterpart pushes the boat out just a tad.....

https://landtransportguru.net/three-door-double-decker-buses-procured-by-lta/?fbclid=IwAR1bLAGmeNZJAlMuf5CYcu2WxmTHxjfZOEUoms5IVo9Hu8rx7oeljoLwYBc

With some questions beginning to be heard regarding the Wrights/Volvo relationship,and the arrival of fresh Bodybuilding talent like MCV,perhaps the NTA should get a bit adventureous now ?

bk

AlekSmart wrote: »

Interesting to note,that whilst the NTA proceed with restraint,it's Singaporean counterpart pushes the boat out just a tad.....

https://landtransportguru.net/three-door-double-decker-buses-procured-by-lta/?fbclid=IwAR1bLAGmeNZJAlMuf5CYcu2WxmTHxjfZOEUoms5IVo9Hu8rx7oeljoLwYBc

Looks fantastic, three doors and two stairs, like the buses in Berlin. Would be quiet radical for us!

I can't tell from the article if they are hybrids or not? Could be an issue for us.

The comment under the article is interesting:

Hi! I think they should not just order single or double decker buses with 3 doors but more articulated with 4 doors. And better…… Double-articulated as to upgrade the seating capacity.

3 doors not even enough for them, shows how far behind we are in this regard.

AlekSmart

bk wrote: »

Looks fantastic, three doors and two stairs, like the buses in Berlin. Would be quiet radical for us!

I can't tell from the article if they are hybrids or not? Could be an issue for us.

The comment under the article is interesting:

3 doors not even enough for them, shows how far behind we are in this regard.

The vehicles are Euro 6 spec to begin with,with potential for Hybrid versions when the Singaporean LTA have completed their emissions related trials.