Concurrent teacher education

Pringles123

I heard on the radio today that Mary immaculate/UL are setting up a new Bachelor of Arts in education course where you can train to become a maths and Irish teacher in 4 years. I thought all the teacher education courses were gradually being changed to 5 years like the ones in maynooth and Angela’s in Sligo? I am just wondering if anybody has any information on this as it seems a little bit unfair that the likes of home ec teachers have to train for 5 years but Irish and maths teachers only 4. Also whilst on the point what’s people’s opinion of studying for 5 years to become a teacher?

shenanagans

Pringles123 wrote: »

I heard on the radio today that Mary immaculate/UL are setting up a new Bachelor of Arts in education course where you can train to become a maths and Irish teacher in 4 years. I thought all the teacher education courses were gradually being changed to 5 years like the ones in maynooth and Angela’s in Sligo? I am just wondering if anybody has any information on this as it seems a little bit unfair that the likes of home ec teachers have to train for 5 years but Irish and maths teachers only 4? Also whilst on the point what are people’s opinion of studying for 5 years to become a teacher?

The concurrent course would give you a degree in you subject and a degree in education.... (concurrent degree course). But if you do an Arts degree in Maths/Irish it takes 3 years then you do a 2year Masters in education to teach.

Difference is you have a degree vs a masters in education. Both adequate to teach.

Makes sense to do concurrent course to save a year plus costs.

Hope that makes sense.

Pringles123

shenanagans wrote: »

The concurrent course would give you a degree in you subject and a degree in education.... (concurrent degree course). But if you do an Arts degree in Maths/Irish it takes 3 years then you do a 2year Masters in education to teach.

Difference is you have a degree vs a masters in education. Both adequate to teach.

Makes sense to do concurrent course to save a year plus costs.

Hope that makes sense.

Yeah, thanks for the reply I understand the difference between concurrent and not concurrent but the question I’m really asking is why are some concurrent 5 and others 4. Take for example maynooth where you can do science teaching in 5 years (4 year undergraduate + 1 year masters) but compare that to limerick or dcu where you take the same subjects and complete them in 4. Or Angela’s which use to be 4 but now changed to 5 (4 years + 1 year masters) galway is also 5 I believe for maths education. So some colleges are offering concurrent courses in 4 years and others are offering it in 5 years. I thought the change to 5 years occurred when the h.dip changed to 2 years and became a masters but some courses are still doing the same length whilst others changed

shenanagans

Pringles123 wrote: »

Yeah, thanks for the reply I understand the difference between concurrent and not concurrent but the question I’m really asking is why are some concurrent 5 and others 4. Take for example maynooth where you can do science teaching in 5 years (4 year undergraduate + 1 year masters) but compare that to limerick or dcu where you take the same subjects and complete them in 4. Or Angela’s which use to be 4 but now changed to 5 (4 years + 1 year masters) galway is also 5 I believe for maths education. So some colleges are offering concurrent courses in 4 years and others are offering it in 5 years. I thought the change to 5 years occurred when the h.dip changed to 2 years and became a masters but some courses are still doing the same length whilst others changed

Not sure about all that. Galway is 4 years. It was always a concurrent course.

If you do a degree followed by a masters it's going to be longer. It's two separate courses. Degree plus masters. Generally 3years plus two years.

shenanagans

Pringles123 wrote: »

Yeah, thanks for the reply I understand the difference between concurrent and not concurrent but the question I’m really asking is why are some concurrent 5 and others 4. Take for example maynooth where you can do science teaching in 5 years (4 year undergraduate + 1 year masters) but compare that to limerick or dcu where you take the same subjects and complete them in 4. Or Angela’s which use to be 4 but now changed to 5 (4 years + 1 year masters) galway is also 5 I believe for maths education. So some colleges are offering concurrent courses in 4 years and others are offering it in 5 years. I thought the change to 5 years occurred when the h.dip changed to 2 years and became a masters but some courses are still doing the same length whilst others changed

Maynooth website :
'Study for four years as an undergraduate for a two-subject Science degree, while also completing 60 credits in Education. After four years you are awarded a BSc Mathematics (with Education) degree – a level 8 honours degree. To become a fully qualified teacher, you must complete one further year.'


Don't get the extra year. Thought you could teach after 4.


But with Galway you do the same credits (30) in maths and education per year. So more than the 60 credits over 4 years in maynooth. That could be it.


Look at education credit total per course.

SligoBrewer

shenanagans wrote: »

Maynooth website :
'Study for four years as an undergraduate for a two-subject Science degree, while also completing 60 credits in Education. After four years you are awarded a BSc Mathematics (with Education) degree – a level 8 honours degree. To become a fully qualified teacher, you must complete one further year.'


Don't get the extra year. Thought you could teach after 4.


But with Galway you do the same credits (30) in maths and education per year. So more than the 60 credits over 4 years in maynooth. That could be it.


Look at education credit total per course.

All teacher courses have gone out to two years, even concurrent degrees.
There should be a minimum of 5 years in any degree to become a teacher and I'd be surprised if there was any course offering otherwise.

shenanagans

SligoBrewer wrote: »

All teacher courses have gone out to two years, even concurrent degrees.
There should be a minimum of 5 years in any degree to become a teacher and I'd be surprised if there was any course offering otherwise.

NUIG:
'The BA in Mathematics and Education is a four-year, fulltime honours degree programme which incorporates a teacher training qualification and opportunities for practical teaching experience throughout the four years of its duration. Graduates of the programme will be qualified mathematicians and will be recognised by the Teaching Council of Ireland as qualified postprimary teachers of Mathematics and Applied Mathematics'

It's 4 years. Not all courses have changed.

There's no teaching courses for 2years? Do you mean the Masters is 2years?

Inspector Coptoor

If you do a science degree to Hons level (4 years) or an Internatiinal Arts degree with a language (4 years), it will now take 6 years to become a teacher in total including the PME.

I find it very unfair that some
Teachers can qualify in 4 years, others 5 and another cohort in 6.

It should be standardized for concurrent programmes.

shenanagans

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

If you do a science degree to Hons level (4 years) or an Internatiinal Arts degree with a language (4 years), it will now take 6 years to become a teacher in total including the PME.

I find it very unfair that some
Teachers can qualify in 4 years, others 5 and another cohort in 6.

It should be standardized for concurrent programmes.

Don't agree. Four years is plenty for teaching. Six years is ridiculous.

I understand your point of view tho.

I can only say that these 'concurrent degrees' are tailored to teaching. They are specific degrees with a distinct qualification. I mean if you want to teach and your subject choice is a available through a concurrent course it's a no brainer.... 4 vs 6 years.

In a general Arts degree you could do 4 subjects in first year before you specialise in 2 subjects in 2/3 year. Then you do the education in the PME...so 5 years.

In concurrent you start education on day one. You do half of your credits over the 4 years in education. So you do education for 4 years (30 credits p/a) 120 credits total..... Same amount of credits as PME i expect. The other 120 credits are in your two subjects..... You specialise in these from day one also.

It's a more efficient way it qualify. These courses are there to meet demand.

The argument you're making applies to many careers.... If you do a specialised course you qualify quicker. You could do a B. Comm then do a postgrad in accounting to be an accountant or you could go straight into an accounting course from day one..... Which is quicker... The specialised course.

Pringles123

shenanagans wrote: »

Don't agree. Four years is plenty for teaching. Six years is ridiculous.

I understand your point of view tho.

I can only say that these 'concurrent degrees' are tailored to teaching. They are specific degrees with a distinct qualification. I mean if you want to teach and your subject choice is a available through a concurrent course it's a no brainer.... 4 vs 6 years.

In a general Arts degree you could do 4 subjects in first year before you specialise in 2 subjects in 2/3 year. Then you do the education in the PME...so 5 years.

In concurrent you start education on day one. You do half of your credits over the 4 years in education. So you do education for 4 years (30 credits p/a) 120 credits total..... Same amount of credits as PME i expect. The other 120 credits are in your two subjects..... You specialise in these from day one also.

It's a more efficient way it qualify. These courses are there to meet demand.

The argument you're making applies to many careers.... If you do a specialised course you qualify quicker. You could do a B. Comm then do a postgrad in accounting to be an accountant or you could go straight into an accounting course from day one..... Which is quicker... The specialised course.

Your outlining of credit suits perfectly for subject combinations like maths and Irish but take any concurrent course that includes a science subject or a business subject, e.g. all maths with a science, all P.E with a science all home ec with a science or home ec with economics etc. in order to be accredited these courses need to add in an extra 20 credits for junior science or junior business (must do physics bio and chem or business accounting and economics). As a result a lot of concurrent courses doing 4 years are either falling short of the credits somewhere or adding in more than 60 credits a year which would make me question if standards are impacted. So I am asking what the rule is with the teaching council on it? Because I thought they were gradually changing all concurrent courses to 5 years to avoid this problem.

shenanagans

Pringles123 wrote: »

Your outlining of credit suits perfectly for subject combinations like maths and Irish but take any concurrent course that includes a science subject or a business subject, e.g. all maths with a science, all P.E with a science all home ec with a science or home ec with economics etc. in order to be accredited these courses need to add in an extra 20 credits for junior science or junior business (must do physics bio and chem or business accounting and economics). As a result a lot of concurrent courses doing 4 years are either falling short of the credits somewhere or adding in more than 60 credits a year which would make me question if standards are impacted. So I am asking what the rule is with the teaching council on it? Because I thought they were gradually changing all concurrent courses to 5 years to avoid this problem.

No idea. Thought if you had 60 credits in your subject that was sufficient.

The home ec and science gives you way over the 60 credits.... Are they necessary for teaching? Wouldn't 60 credits be adequate? Plus the course only gives you 80 education credits after 4 years hence the need for the fifth year's which an additional 20 credits.

Pringles123

shenanagans wrote: »

No idea. Thought if you had 60 credits in your subject that was sufficient.

The home ec and science gives you way over the 60 credits.... Are they necessary for teaching? Wouldn't 60 credits be adequate? Plus the course only gives you 80 education credits after 4 years hence the need for the fifth year's which an additional 20 credits.

Not sure if they are necessary. I think the 60 credits are adequate for everything except science or business teaching. Taking science, to teach a subject to leaving cert you need 60 credits and to teach science at junior cert/cycle you need 10 credits in biology, 10 in chemistry and 10 in physics. So if you have the 60 credits in lets say biology but never done chemistry or physics you would be allowed teach biology at leaving cert level but would not be qualified to teach at junior cycle. So anyone doing a concurrent science degree would need 60 credits in their chosen subjects + 10 in whichever subjects they need to make up the 3 science subjects.

When they increased the number of credits in education and made the masters, some colleges extended their concurrent degree programmes to suit the credit requirements whilst others stayed at 4 years somehow.

Corkgirl18

Science and PE concurrent courses in UCC and UL are 4 years. I wasn't aware there were concurrent teaching degrees for 5 years.
For subjects where concurrent degrees don't exist, you've no option but to do your degree and PME on top of it. That'll result in 5/6 years of study.

rainbowtrout

Pringles123 wrote: »

Not sure if they are necessary. I think the 60 credits are adequate for everything except science or business teaching. Taking science, to teach a subject to leaving cert you need 60 credits and to teach science at junior cert/cycle you need 10 credits in biology, 10 in chemistry and 10 in physics. So if you have the 60 credits in lets say biology but never done chemistry or physics you would be allowed teach biology at leaving cert level but would not be qualified to teach at junior cycle. So anyone doing a concurrent science degree would need 60 credits in their chosen subjects + 10 in whichever subjects they need to make up the 3 science subjects.

When they increased the number of credits in education and made the masters, some colleges extended their concurrent degree programmes to suit the credit requirements whilst others stayed at 4 years somehow.

I can't answer for every course, but I did the concurrent science education degree in UL about 20 years ago. I was able to qualify in three subjects, biology and ag science, and at the end of first year we had a choice of chemistry or physics as our third subject. We had our 10 credits of each of biology, chemistry and physics done in first year to cover us for JC science. All science degrees in UL at that time had 6 modules per semester which were 5 or 6 credits each, can't remember exactly. It meant students finished after four years with an excess of credits.


Now the same degree that I did 20 odd years ago only offers students the chance to do two subjects for their degree instead of three. I imagine that the shift in credits has probably gone to any shortfall there may have been in the education side of it when the PME went to two years.

.... Actually I've just looked at the course outline on the UL website. When I was there the structure for the regular semesters (the ones without teaching practice) were 5 science modules and 1 education one. Now the structure is 4 science modules and 2 education ones. That's why they can fit it into 4 years, and if someone is definite they want to teach science, it's a no brainer. The length of the course is irrelevant, it's the number of credits completed. Whoever has redesigned the course in UL has been clever in that regard.

shenanagans

Pringles123 wrote: »

Not sure if they are necessary. I think the 60 credits are adequate for everything except science or business teaching. Taking science, to teach a subject to leaving cert you need 60 credits and to teach science at junior cert/cycle you need 10 credits in biology, 10 in chemistry and 10 in physics. So if you have the 60 credits in lets say biology but never done chemistry or physics you would be allowed teach biology at leaving cert level but would not be qualified to teach at junior cycle. So anyone doing a concurrent science degree would need 60 credits in their chosen subjects + 10 in whichever subjects they need to make up the 3 science subjects.

When they increased the number of credits in education and made the masters, some colleges extended their concurrent degree programmes to suit the credit requirements whilst others stayed at 4 years somehow.

That makes perfect sense. General subjects like science and business cover wider areas than most subjects hence credits being higher.

Perhaps the 4 year concurrent degrees around maths and Irish were designed for 4 years to attract prospective teachers in these subjects which have a shortage of teachers. The whole 4 year thing is a big benefit... Save 1/2 years of college and fees... Come out with same career.