Bmw Dealership refusing to sell me a car in the uk

pat1981

Hypothetical question.

I inquired very recently to a bmw dealership in the uk to purchase a high end sticker price car that was 6 months old.

Before I could negotiate I told the salesman that I was from Ireland and I would be bringing the car back with me, and jokingly said that this would be the easiest sale he would ever complete as the sale would be conducted over the phone.

Once I was happy with the price I would go over and collect.

However he stopped me in my tracks and said he would have to check with his manager to ask if he could sell me a car that was been brought back to Ireland.
He could sell me a car if I could provide a uk address.

I explained I would need the log book for vrt purposes to be produced in Ireland, so by me giving a uk address I assumed they were going to register me as a owner and the new log book would be sent to the uk address I supplied.

This was duplication and unnecessary and anyways I don't have a uk address.

I have purchased bmw cars from the uk before and never had this problem.


Anyway the next day the dealership emailed me and said it was company policy not to sell me a car unless I provided a uk address.

I contacted Bmw head office in the uk and explained the events and they said it was up to individual bmw dealerships how they conducted their sales and asked me to contact their export dealership. if I was interested.

I wonder under Eu laws if applicable, was the dealership wrong in this instance.

Chiorino

pat1981 wrote: »

I wonder under Eu laws if applicable, was the dealership wrong in this instance.

Wrong in what way? From a purely commercial point of view, yes as they have given up a seemingly good sale. Legally, a private company can reserve the right to supply goods or services to whoever they choose.

BTW, I have anecdotally heard that (some) UK dealerships have adopted this policy mainly due to issues with a certain ethnic minority. No evidence to support this, just what I was told by an acquaintance involved in the UK motor trade.

Mr. Incognito

Just buy from another dealer? Whats the issue

AmberGold

Same thing happened to me in the last month, discussed it with a friend in Ireland in the motor trade he said its common enough. The dealer in questionhas a policy that cars sold must be taxed and not for export, this has been in place for the last 10 years. No amount of talking to them would convince them otherwise. In this case I don’t think it has anything to do with protecting the Irish dealers.

I went ahead and bought it in a UK based friends name. Ironically he’s never owned a car in his life and doesn’t even have a driving licence.

It’s sitting outside my house now, insured but still in my friends name. VRT to be paid next week.

It’ll have another owner (keeper as they say on the mainland) on the UK log book but the Irish log book will register you as the first owner.

Gravelly

Tell them you want "I support gay marriage" in vinyl lettering across the back window, and then sue them if they refuse to sell it to you.

bmc58

Gravelly wrote: »

Tell them you want "I support gay marriage" in vinyl lettering across the back window, and then sue them if they refuse to sell it to you.

Hmmmmmmmmm,not the best suggestion ever.Don't think that case ended well for those that took the case!

davindub

I think it may be to do with VAT rules rather than restraint of trade.

I know a lot of UK companies who wont export.

GerardKeating

davindub wrote: »

I think it may be to do with VAT rules rather than restraint of trade.

I know a lot of UK companies who wont export.

If they sell more that 75,000 into the state, they would need to register for VAT in ireland, would not take many BMV sales to breach the threshold.

pat1981

davindub wrote: »

I think it may be to do with VAT rules rather than restraint of trade.

I know a lot of UK companies who wont export.

ok, not to add fuel to the fire but if I had purchased this particular car in the uk I would have purchased it in the uk, price including uk vat.

I would have then brought it back to Ireland and just paid the vrt.
Vat would not have been applicable because the car was over six months old and over 5k miles.

As other posters have said this seems to be a fairly normal practise which surprised me tbh.

Thanks for all replies and comments.

Victor

pat1981 wrote: »

ok, not to add fuel to the fire but if I had purchased this particular car in the uk I would have purchased it in the uk, price including uk vat.

It's a bit more complicated, insofar as you were buying over the phone.

davindub

pat1981 wrote: »

davindub wrote: »

I think it may be to do with VAT rules rather than restraint of trade.

I know a lot of UK companies who wont export.

ok, not to add fuel to the fire but if I had purchased this particular car in the uk I would have purchased it in the uk, price including uk vat.

I would have then brought it back to Ireland and just paid the vrt.
Vat would not have been applicable because the car was over six months old and over 5k miles.

As other posters have said this seems to be a fairly normal practise which surprised me tbh.

Thanks for all replies and comments.

Im not too familar with hmrc vat rules but i believe they operate a margin scheme or vat on full price for 2nd hand cars. Vat is definitely charged on 2nd hand cars

I would agree place of supply is uk but for the need to register the car to the customers address. Anyway right or wrong that is the most common issue given for not exporting. Once they go over a threshold of supplying goods into a jurisdiction they need to register for vat in that jurisdiction.

Of course i am guessing as to the real reason, it could be any reason but for a small company registered in the uk it is the most likely. Out of interest i know a big uk online retailer with branches in Ireland that charges extoriant delivery charges to Ireland to protect its Irish based business but good luck proving its a restraint of trade.

The high horse brigade

I've heard of this. I think it's more a measure to stop the ethnic minority groups buying beemers for cash

Ragnar Lothbrok

The high horse brigade wrote: »

I've heard of this. I think it's more a measure to stop the ethnic minority groups buying beemers for cash

I don't understand. Why would they care who they sold it to? What harm could it do to the seller if the car was sold for cash to members of this "ethnic minority"?

The high horse brigade

Ragnar Lothbrok wrote: »

I don't understand. Why would they care who they sold it to? What harm could it do to the seller if the car was sold for cash to members of this "ethnic minority"?

They feel it harms their image being known as a place you can buy with cash.

VW over here used have the same policy. You seen the ethnic type in brand new Toyota Hiace and Ford Transit vans but never VW transporters

hognef

The high horse brigade wrote: »

They feel it harms their image being known as a place you can buy with cash.

VW over here used have the same policy. You seen the ethnic type in brand new Toyota Hiace and Ford Transit vans but never VW transporters

Then they should refuse cash.

The high horse brigade

hognef wrote: »

Then they should refuse cash.

Is it possible to survive in the motor industry refusing cash?

hognef

The high horse brigade wrote: »

Is it possible to survive in the motor industry refusing cash?

I don't know. You seemed to imply they mightn't want cash buyers.

The high horse brigade

hognef wrote: »

I don't know. You seemed to imply they mightn't want cash buyers.

They don't want buyers without legitimate addresses

Victor

The high horse brigade wrote: »

Is it possible to survive in the motor industry refusing cash?

There is a difference between cash buyers paying by bank transfers (as opposed to credit card or hire purchase) and those that show up with wads of used €50 notes.

The high horse brigade

Victor wrote: »

There is a difference between cash buyers paying by bank transfers (as opposed to credit card or hire purchase) and those that show up with wads of used €50 notes.

Yes I know, I'm just saying I've heard of this policy and the reasoning behind it.

unattendedbag

Yes I've heard of this too and it's becoming more common. Recently a friend was refused a sale of an Audi in Scotland for not having a uk address. It was from a fairly large networked dealership. The sales manager said it was company policy that they needed a UK address. When we enquiried with the head office for the business they didn't know what we were on about and said there is no problem with Irish people buying their cars for export. Didn't change the sales guys mind though.

I'd be inclined to call their bluff and give them a parcel motel address or one belonging to a friend or relative in the north. It won't make it any more difficult to register it here.

AmberGold

They needed proof of address or a utility bill in my name so the Parcel Motel route won't wash.

Del2005

The dealerships are just following to UK law to the letter. When a car is sold in the UK the remaining tax on it goes back to the seller. It's illegal to drive a UK reg car without tax and you can't tax it without a UK address. So the dealers not selling for export are just complying with the law, while the dealers selling for export are breaking the law.

https://www.gov.uk/sold-bought-vehicle

littlevillage

Del2005 wrote: »

The dealerships are just following to UK law to the letter. When a car is sold in the UK the remaining tax on it goes back to the seller. It's illegal to drive a UK reg car without tax and you can't tax it without a UK address. So the dealers not selling for export are just complying with the law, while the dealers selling for export are breaking the law.

https://www.gov.uk/sold-bought-vehicle

I have bought cars in UK dealships and brought them straight back to Ireland, but incidently they have always had road tax on them. Might explain the problem. If it is then the dealer is being petty and could easily help you out by taxing it for you. (eg. call it an export premium etc.)

ohnonotgmail

littlevillage wrote: »

I have bought cars in UK dealships and brought them straight back to Ireland, but incidently they have always had road tax on them. Might explain the problem. If it is then the dealer is being petty and could easily help you out by taxing it for you. (eg. call it an export premium etc.)

When? The rules around this only changed relatively recently.

Del2005

littlevillage wrote: »

I have bought cars in UK dealships and brought them straight back to Ireland, but incidently they have always had road tax on them. Might explain the problem. If it is then the dealer is being petty and could easily help you out by taxing it for you. (eg. call it an export premium etc.)

When they got rid of tax discs the tax stays with the owner not the car. So when a person sells a car it now has no tax and can't be driven on UK roads. To tax the car you have to have a UK address so even if an Irish person has a UK address they can't legally buy a car for export and tax it, as you need the full V5 for export and to tax it. A dealer can't sell for export and let the person drive off their site as it has no tax. They can't tax it for you as that would require the V5 to be sent off, so you won't be able to clear it in Ireland before the 30 days from import are up.

littlevillage

Del2005 wrote: »

When they got rid of tax discs the tax stays with the owner not the car. So when a person sells a car it now has no tax and can't be driven on UK roads. To tax the car you have to have a UK address so even if an Irish person has a UK address they can't legally buy a car for export and tax it, as you need the full V5 for export and to tax it. A dealer can't sell for export and let the person drive off their site as it has no tax. They can't tax it for you as that would require the V5 to be sent off, so you won't be able to clear it in Ireland before the 30 days from import are up.

Interesting. That's going to put the kibosh on a lot of bargain hunters going over to the UK buying single cars from dealers. They will have to hire a haulier to bring it back on a truck and that's going to be costly for a sinlge car.


Car dealers back here, must be very pleased with such developments

ohnonotgmail

littlevillage wrote: »

Interesting. That's going to put the kibosh on a lot of bargain hunters going over to the UK buying single cars from dealers. They will have to hire a haulier to bring it back on a truck and that's going to be costly for a sinlge car.


Car dealers back here, must be very pleased with such developments

It doesnt have a major impact on the number of cars imported. The exchange rate makes it too attractive not to.

Del2005

littlevillage wrote: »

Interesting. That's going to put the kibosh on a lot of bargain hunters going over to the UK buying single cars from dealers. They will have to hire a haulier to bring it back on a truck and that's going to be costly for a sinlge car.


Car dealers back here, must be very pleased with such developments

They've had the law for several years and hasn't had any impact. Like here not all laws are obeyed so plenty of other dealers are willing to sell for export and let the person take the risk, or more likely non franchise dealers willing to sell for export;)

Claw Hammer

It must be a breach of EU rules regarding the free movement of goods. Probably not much point in making a complaint to the European Commission at this stage with Brexit on the way

BaronVon

Would it not be a case of franchise, as in BMW offer separate franchises for different geographical areas? And, probably more relevant, BMW UK would be different to BMW IRL, and therefore there would be issues selling direct to somebody else's customers, and encroaching on their turf?

davkav

We recently bought an ex demo from a VW dealership in Manchester. They didn't require me to have a UK address but they did insist on me paying for 3 months road tax on the car so that I could legally drive it off of the forecourt.

As far as I know, on request Frank Keane BMW on the Naas Road will source and import BMW's from UK dealerships.