If Ireland unifies will we get a new flag?

sexmag

If Ireland unifies will we get a new flag?

Cee-Jay-Cee

Hang on till I pop into the future and find out for you. :rolleyes:

facehugger99

No, we won't be able to afford one.

Cee-Jay-Cee

Just back....I can find no point in the future where Ireland is united.

Close thread.

KungPao

Sadly yes. And we have to say ‘fleg’ too.

Peatys

The green, white and orange is a uniting flag.

amcalester

Peatys wrote: »

The green, white and orange is a uniting flag.

Keep the tricolour and add the Red Hand of Ulster to it

Hoboo

Don't see the need. Already has Green, Orange, and White for peace in the middle.

KungPao

Our new national anthem will be that ****e the egg chasers sing as well.

Hoboo

amcalester wrote: »

Keep the tricolour and add the Red Hand of Ulster to it

And put a phoenix on top of that.

engiweirdo

Hopefully. The one with the harp incorporating lady Erin with her diddies out please. You can never go wrong with diddies.

troyzer

The current flag is quite aspirational in that it stands for peace between the orange and green.

But realistically it has been corrupted by decades of sullying by pricks setting off car bombs and kneecapping civilians.

We'd do well by looking to the IRFU as an example when it comes to a unified flag, anthem and identity. I'm not saying we rush out to adopt Ireland's call, but it has definitely caught on.

Something like South Africa with a multi language anthem incorporating Irish, English and Scots would be nice. Maybe incorporating a verse from Amhrán na bhFiann, a traditional Scots' song and Ireland's call? Who knows? There are multiple ways you can do it.

The Shoulder to Shoulder documentary on Friday was a real eye opener for me. It's clear that even the most hardcore of Orange men still consider themselves Irish as part of their identity. They see no contradiction marching on the 12th and cheering for Ireland against England in the six nations while wearing green down in Dublin. This is a crucial hook we need to create a new, shared Irish identity.

Keeping the flag, anthem and basically demanding they assimilate or **** off is not the way to do this.

super_furry

Peatys wrote: »

The green, white and orange is a uniting flag.

Not to unionists or loyalists.

sexmag

sexmag wrote: »

If Ireland unifies will we get a new flag?

yes, of course.

One that represents St Patrick, St Andrew and St George would be ideal.:P

troyzer

troyzer wrote: »

The Shoulder to Shoulder documentary on Friday was a real eye opener for me. It's clear that even the most hardcore of Orange men still consider themselves Irish as part of their identity. They see no contradiction marching on the 12th and cheering for Ireland against England in the six nations while wearing green down in Dublin.

Probably because there is no contradiction

Gwynplaine

Hopefully it will never happen.

troyzer

Something like this, it's fairly garish. I wouldn't have the green backround but other than that it could work.

The St. Patrick's saltire is a traditional emblem of Ireland and we can co-opt it if we want. Especially if the Brits change their flag after a united Ireland.

In any case, a settlement for a United Ireland will almost certainly lead to a new, federal constitution organised on a provincial basis. It would be important to stress the provinces in any new flag.

seamus

troyzer wrote: »

The current flag is quite aspirational in that it stands for peace between the orange and green.

But realistically it has been corrupted by decades of sullying by pricks setting off car bombs and kneecapping civilians.

Yeah, this.

Nice idea that "it's already a flag of peace", but there's too much baggage with it. The colours orange and green have too much history behind them, putting them on a UI flag is by default making it sectarian.

Blue is the much older national colour of Ireland, predating any of the current issues in relation to partition, and would be the most appropriate symbol of a united Ireland - since it was first used to represent a UI and fell out of favour when Ireland became divided.

The current Presidential standard removes any hint of sectarianism while still being undeniably Irish:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Patrick%27s_blue#/media/File:Flag_of_the_President_of_Ireland.svg

Patser

We'll just reverse the flag so Unionists feel they come first. Ivory Coast will be pi$$ed off but that's a risk we'll have to take.

lawred2

sexmag wrote: »

If Ireland unifies will we get a new flag?

I would hope so

troyzer

Aegir wrote: »

Probably because there is no contradiction

There is to many Irish people in the south, myself included. It's hard to define being Irish without some level of opposition to being British.

It's simply unrealistic to think that an 800 year on and off war with a foreign, occupying power won't lead to your national identity being at least partially based on opposition to the occupier.

Most people don't have a chip on their shoulder anymore which is great but the independence movement is such a core part of our history and culture. It seems bizarrre to me to bitterly oppose that and still consider yourself Irish.

When BOD was asking orange men who they'd most like to beat, they all said England. Why? The general Irish desire to beat England in any competition is born out of occupation and a past hatred of all things English. I simply don't understand how you can be rabid about beating England one day and be ultra nationalist, flag waving, poppy wearing west little Englanders the next.

But I accept that it is possible and quite common. It's a world I never knew before.

lawred2

Dark green with a gold harp in the center

OldMrBrennan83

Changing the flag is a very good reason to never make a new country with that lot. Why change everything that was arrived for and the near century of our own history to fire it all away. They have their county and we have ours, leave it that way.

lawred2

Patww79 wrote: »

Changing the flag is a very good reason to never make a new country with that lot. Why change everything that was arrived for and the near century of our own history to fire it all away. They have their county and we have ours, leave it that way.

Irish people have two countries actually. It's not ours and theirs.

troyzer

seamus wrote: »

Yeah, this.

Nice idea that "it's already a flag of peace", but there's too much baggage with it. The colours orange and green have too much history behind them, putting them on a UI flag is by default making it sectarian.

Blue is the much older national colour of Ireland, predating any of the current issues in relation to partition, and would be the most appropriate symbol of a united Ireland - since it was first used to represent a UI and fell out of favour when Ireland became divided.

The current Presidential standard removes any hint of sectarianism while still being undeniably Irish:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Patrick%27s_blue#/media/File:Flag_of_the_President_of_Ireland.svg

lawred2 wrote: »

Dark green with a gold harp in the center

Seamus is right about it being a good idea to go back to blue. It's a much older colour of Ireland than green. The green only came about because it's traditional the colour of catholicism and wasn't adopted as an Irish nationalist colour until the 17th century. I don't think scrapping all religiously linked symbolism is a bad idea.

troyzer

troyzer wrote: »

There is to many Irish people in the south, myself included. It's hard to define being Irish without some level of opposition to being British.

It's simply unrealistic to think that an 800 year on and off war with a foreign, occupying power won't lead to your national identity being at least partially based on opposition to the occupier.

Most people don't have a chip on their shoulder anymore which is great but the independence movement is such a core part of our history and culture. It seems bizarrre to me to bitterly oppose that and still consider yourself Irish.

When BOD was asking orange men who they'd most like to beat, they all said England. Why? The general Irish desire to beat England in any competition is born out of occupation and a past hatred of all things English. I simply don't understand how you can be rabid about beating England one day and be ultra nationalist, flag waving, poppy wearing west little Englanders the next.

But I accept that it is possible and quite common. It's a world I never knew before.

I think you may need a geography lesson.

troyzer

Aegir wrote: »

I think you may need a geography lesson.

Right, why's that?

ct5amr2ig1nfhp

They do? Do we secretly own the ivory coast as well?

lawred2 wrote: »

Irish people have two countries actually. It's not ours and theirs.

lawred2

troyzer wrote: »

Seamus is right about it being a good idea to go back to blue. It's a much older colour of Ireland than green. The green only came about because it's traditional the colour of catholicism and wasn't adopted as an Irish nationalist colour until the 17th century. I don't think scrapping all religiously linked symbolism is a bad idea.

Maybe - I wouldn't have any major objection to the presidential standard

Aesthetically and based on nothing but taste however I prefer the dark green

troyzer

troyzer wrote: »

Right, why's that?

Because you are confusing British and English. They are not the same thing.

The Scots are British, as are the Welsh. They wear poppies as well.

They aren't English though.

topper75

Black-bereted lion rampant with crossed Kalashnikovs silhouetted on green and orange alternate chevrons field. No white.

troyzer

Aegir wrote: »

Because you are confusing British and English. They are not the same thing.

The Scots are British, as are the Welsh. They wear poppies as well.

They aren't English though.

I'm not confusing British and English at all. But in general there is an anti-English attitude in Wales and Scotland which isn't present among the unionists in Northern Ireland.

It's not a pernicious attitude, but it is there. The only time you ever see it among unionists is in sport, which is weird.

The DUP for example must be the most outwardly royalist party in the UK, towards an English royal line? That is really weird. I've never seen a Scottish, Welsh or even an English politician casually wear a royalist brooch at normal events like Arlene Foster does.

Being British and being English are not the same thing, there are significant overlaps and significant differences. Ulster Unionists are overwhelmingly Scottish by descent, but culturally they're more closer to being English than Scottish.

suicide_circus

Bobby Sands and King Billy being nursed simultaneously by Grainne Mhaol, one per teat

Omackeral

There we go

Berserker

Putting aside the economic issues that would put a stop to a UI fairly quickly, I would have to say that the Irish flag would be as much of a non-starter as the UJ. The flag isn't really a fair reflection of the RoI anyway, as it excludes anyone who falls outside of the traditional definitions of green and orange. Might be a good time to think about changing it to something more reflective of Ireland in 2018.

troyzer wrote: »

The Shoulder to Shoulder documentary on Friday was a real eye opener for me. It's clear that even the most hardcore of Orange men still consider themselves Irish as part of their identity. They see no contradiction marching on the 12th and cheering for Ireland against England in the six nations while wearing green down in Dublin. This is a crucial hook we need to create a new, shared Irish identity.

Where is the contradiction between the 12th and supporting Ireland in rugby? They live on the island and their local club etc is part of the IRFU. They are members of the OO, as are people in the RoI, so they march to celebrate that fact.

Zebra3

amcalester wrote: »

Keep the tricolour and add the Red Hand of Ulster to it

Nah, use the Sniper at Work sign instead.

For the craic, like.

troyzer

Berserker wrote: »

Putting aside the economic issues that would put a stop to a UI fairly quickly, I would have to say that the Irish flag would be as much of a non-starter as the UJ. The flag isn't really a fair reflection of the RoI anyway, as it excludes anyone who falls outside of the traditional definitions of green and orange. Might be a good time to think about changing it to something more reflective of Ireland in 2018.



Where is the contradiction between the 12th and supporting Ireland in rugby? They live on the island and their local club etc is part of the IRFU. They are members of the OO, as are people in the RoI, so they march to celebrate that fact.

That isn't the contradiction, the contradiction is calling yourself Irish and British at once when the former is so historically defined as opposition to the latter.

But again, obviously it isn't a contradiction because it's a reality for many.

corner of hells

I'd like a flag with a symbol on it that we're all familiar with it , maybe a traffic cone.

I do of course appreciate people objecting to the cone because of it being orange , but if we had a shamrock shaped flag , anyway my toasted sammich is ready.

troyzer

troyzer wrote: »

I'm not confusing British and English at all. But in general there is an anti-English attitude in Wales and Scotland which isn't present among the unionists in Northern Ireland.

yes it is, you ask any Norhtern Ireland footballer who they want to beat more than anyone (apart form the RoI of course) and it would be England.

troyzer wrote: »

The DUP for example must be the most outwardly royalist party in the UK, towards an English royal line?

it isn't an English Royal line though, it is Scottish.

troyzer wrote: »

Being British and being English are not the same thing, there are significant overlaps and significant differences. Ulster Unionists are overwhelmingly Scottish by descent, but culturally they're more closer to being English than Scottish.

no, they aren't. they really really are not.

The majority are Presbyterian for starters, which is a Scottish church. you will also only see Orange marches in England in places where large numbers of Scots or Northern Irish live. The Orange order is simply not even the remotest bit part of English culture.

KungPao

New flag should be an image of an Irish breakfast on the near side and an Ulster fry on the far side, with a slice of white bread in the middle to symbolise harmony between the two culinary traditions.

corner of hells

KungPao wrote: »

New flag should be an image of an Irish breakfast on the near side and an Ulster fry on the far side, with a slice of white bread in the middle to symbolise harmony between the two culinary traditions.

Which brown sauce will we use ?

KungPao

KungPao wrote: »

New flag should be an image of an Irish breakfast on the near side and an Ulster fry on the far side, with a slice of white bread in the middle to symbolise harmony between the two culinary traditions.

and some white pudding, so it doesn't get confused with a full English breakfast.

Seth Brundle

troyzer wrote: »

Seamus is right about it being a good idea to go back to blue. It's a much older colour of Ireland than green. The green only came about because it's traditional the colour of catholicism and wasn't adopted as an Irish nationalist colour until the 17th century. I don't think scrapping all religiously linked symbolism is a bad idea.

People abroad think of green when they think of Ireland - removing it IMO would be a backward step for tourism (although we're not really that green!).
I think an all green flag with the whole island on it in orange.

troyzer

Aegir wrote: »

yes it is, you ask any Norhtern Ireland footballer who they want to beat more than anyone (apart form the RoI of course) and it would be England.



it isn't an English Royal line though, it is Scottish.



no, they aren't. they really really are not.

The majority are Presbyterian for starters, which is a Scottish church. you will also only see Orange marches in England in places where large numbers of Scots or Northern Irish live. The Orange order is simply not even the remotest bit part of English culture.

It most certainly is an English royal line. There is a lot of Scottish in there, but it's fundemantelly English going back before James VI.

The majority are Presbyterian, yes. Arlene Foster isn't. And even if she was, it would still be weird to be so outwardly Royalist towards a Monarch who is the temporal head of a church which has historically suppressed Presbyterianism.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one I imagine. I'm not a member of the unionist community and don't claim to understand it. I'm just giving my thoughts on the optics of the whole thing. I lived and worked in the north for a while which is what I'm basing this one.

Berserker

troyzer wrote: »

Being British and being English are not the same thing, there are significant overlaps and significant differences. Ulster Unionists are overwhelmingly Scottish by descent, but culturally they're more closer to being English than Scottish.

They are not culturally closer to the English than the Scots. You posted about the OO previously. The OO has a far greater level of visibility in Scotland than in England, for example. Most English people have never even heard of the OO. The Scots and the Unionists are very close in terms of identity and language (think about the language they use in everyday English).

Zirconia

Omackeral wrote: »

There we go

Great idea!

The Rape of Lucretia

In the Breunion scenario, it does. It regains full access to this one :

ohnonotgmail

corner of hells wrote: »

Which brown sauce will we use ?

Disagreement over that could make the troubles pale into insignificance. Obviously the only correct answer is Chef.

troyzer

Berserker wrote: »

They are not culturally closer to the English than the Scots. You posted about the OO previously. The OO has a far greater level of visibility in Scotland than in England, for example. Most English people have never even heard of the OO. The Scots and the Unionists are very close in terms of identity and language (think about the language they use in everyday English).

The OO is unquestionably more Scottish. But the overt Royalism, flag waving and general ultra patriotism is much more typical of a little Englander than the Scottish Lowlands their ancestors came from.

Zubeneschamali

I'd suggest a flag that is less divisive, one that is authentically Irish, recognizable home and abroad and represents something we can all be proud of.



[yeah, I know, there is a Norn Mr. Tayto...]

anotherfinemess

Zebra3 wrote: »

Nah, use the Sniper at Work sign instead.

For the craic, like.

Something more reflective of Ireland? How about a brown envelope?