Disincentivising diesel

n97 mini

Budget due today, and it has been leaked that VRT on diesel vehicles will increase by 1%. That's it.

Also predicted that carbon tax isn't going to happen, and the excise duty difference (11 cent per litre) between diesel and petrol isn't going to be closed, despite being recommended a number of years ago that it should be closed over 5 years at 2.2 cent per year.

Is this the rural lobby in action?

Minister for the Environment and Climate Action, Denis Naughten, is TD for Roscommon-Galway is known to bow to his constituents when it comes to things like wind turbines in that constituency.

Huntline

Typical Dub way of thinking. There is practically zero infrastructure for electric vehicles outside of the cities to make them a viable alternative. Home charging is all well and good until you have to go further than the range of the batteries. More investment in infrastructure and technology would be far more advantageous than adding extra tax onto a litre of fuel which would effect the haulage industry massively which would then this price hike transfer onto the customers so everyone would suffer.

n97 mini

Huntline wrote: »

Typical Dub way of thinking. There is practically zero infrastructure for electric vehicles outside of the cities to make them a viable alternative. Home charging is all well and good until you have to go further than the range of the batteries. More investment in infrastructure and technology would be far more advantageous

Ho hum. That's incentivising EVs. Different topic.

Huntline wrote: »

than adding extra tax onto a litre of fuel which would effect the haulage industry massively which would then this price hike transfer onto the customers so everyone would suffer.

Moot point. The Diesel Rebate Scheme for hauliers, which already refunds up some of the cost. As well as all the VAT.

It is a Dub, or better again, "urban" way of thinking as those of us who live in urban areas are negatively affected by diesel exhaust the most.

ELM327

n97 mini wrote: »

Ho hum. That's incentivising EVs. Different topic.



Moot point. The Diesel Rebate Scheme for hauliers, which already refunds up some of the cost. As well as all the VAT.

It is a Dub, or better again, "urban" way of thinking as those of us who live in urban areas are negatively affected by diesel exhaust the most.

Diesel Rebate Scheme is very very limited.
https://www.revenue.ie/en/companies-and-charities/excise-and-licences/mineral-oil-tax/diesel-rebate-scheme/diesel-rebate-rates.aspx


It's €0.015 per litre. 1 cent.

Huntline

n97 mini wrote: »

Ho hum. That's incentivising EVs. Different topic.


You're the one that posted in the EV thread. Some ho hum you are

ELM327

To clarify, as a rural ireland inhabitant I am fully opposed to any increase in diesel cost.
I drive an EV but I know first hand the difficulties faced by those forced to move out of Dublin as they cannot afford to live there, and then get taxed again for moving out, via increased diesel costs.

I do 50k a year minimum in my EV but for some out there EVs are not practical and for high miles like that (which many out the country are forced into) a petrol or a phev are not suitable. So there is no alternative.

When there's a 400km range EV available at the same cost as say a 4 year old passat then there will be a rural switch to EVs but not before.

Pkiernan

How does a carbon tax that is plundered like general taxation and not ring fenced for environmental improvement help anything?

It just lines the pockets of overpaid civil servants and non-workers.

Make the price of a new electric vehicle fully tax deductible against my income and I can afford to buy one tomorrow.

n97 mini

ELM327 wrote: »

Diesel Rebate Scheme is very very limited.
https://www.revenue.ie/en/companies-and-charities/excise-and-licences/mineral-oil-tax/diesel-rebate-scheme/diesel-rebate-rates.aspx


It's €0.015 per litre. 1 cent.

And if diesel hits €1.54 a litre, the rebate is 7.5 cent per litre. Point is, there is already a mechanism in place to accommodate hauliers, which can be enhanced if necessary.

n97 mini

Pkiernan wrote: »

How does a carbon tax that is plundered like general taxation and not ring fenced for environmental improvement help anything?

I agree. I was never in favour of it as it's a blanket tax that doesn't target specific use cases. And you're right, it's just another revenue raising tax.

ELM327

n97 mini wrote: »

And if diesel hits €1.54 a litre, the rebate is 7.5 cent per litre. Point is, there is already a mechanism in place to accommodate hauliers, which can be enhanced if necessary.

There is, but it is not used and it is limited in its scope.


It may impact some large haulier but not the general commercial transport of domestic goods (eg "white van man") and you would be foolhardy to assume that an increase in the diesel cost at the pump will not have a corresponding increase in the price of goods on the shelf

n97 mini

ELM327 wrote: »

There is, but it is not used and it is limited in its scope.


It may impact some large haulier but not the general commercial transport of domestic goods (eg "white van man") and you would be foolhardy to assume that an increase in the diesel cost at the pump will not have a corresponding increase in the price of goods on the shelf

Diesel fluctuates in price, regardless of tax, so fluctutating prices on the shelf are already a thing.

A Ford Transit has an 80 litre tank. 25 tank fills a year will qualify for the rebate.

ELM327

n97 mini wrote: »

Diesel fluctuates in price, regardless of tax, so fluctutating prices on the shelf are already a thing.

A Ford Transit has an 80 litre tank. 25 tank fills a year will qualify for the rebate.

So with 80 litres and 25 tank fills that's 2,000 litres, at 1.40 per litre approx thats €2800 per annum.


Saving of €0.015 per litre in that instance would save €30 per annum, or just over 1%. Negligible at best.

liamog

Pkiernan wrote: »

How does a carbon tax that is plundered like general taxation and not ring fenced for environmental improvement help anything?

It just lines the pockets of overpaid civil servants and non-workers.

Make the price of a new electric vehicle fully tax deductible against my income and I can afford to buy one tomorrow.

Let's say you were purchasing a new Golf and were choosing between the the TDI and TSI with a similar purchase.


The TDI has a combined rating of 4.1l/100km and the TSI at 4.8l/100km
For an average motorist doing 17k a year that's 697l of Diesel or 816l of Petrol. Due to the lower consumption and lower price you can save €250 a year by picking the diesel, not huge but enough to influence the decision.
Add 35.5c to the price of diesel and the annual fuel costs are equalised.

n97 mini

ELM327 wrote: »

So with 80 litres and 25 tank fills that's 2,000 litres, at 1.40 per litre approx thats €2800 per annum.


Saving of €0.015 per litre in that instance would save €30 per annum, or just over 1%. Negligible at best.

You seem to be fixated with €0.015. That's not set in stone, and is adjusted every quarter. On 2,000 litres, as the scheme currently works, the rebate is between zero and €150.

But that's not the point either. The point, as stated above, is a rebate scheme already exists and could be enhanced very easily.

ELM327

n97 mini wrote: »

You seem to be fixated with €0.015. That's not set in stone, and is adjusted every quarter. On 2,000 litres, as the scheme currently works, the rebate is between zero and €150.

But that's not the point either. The point, as stated above, is a rebate scheme already exists and could be enhanced very easily.

I'm not "fixated" with anything, merely demonstrating how the mechanism, while it exists, is currently next to meaningless.


It could be changed of course but from speaking to LCV drivers many don't qualify or don't bother as the hassle is not worth the few cents.


If it were similar to green diesel rebates, maybe then you'd have a case to espouse the benefit.

n97 mini

1% diesel surcharge on VRT announced. Not sure is that means all VRT bands are going up 1% for diesels, I assume it is. Classic govt tactic as it only affects "new entrants".

Not clear when it comes into effect... did anyone catch when?

ELM327

n97 mini wrote: »

1% diesel surcharge on VRT announced. Not sure is that means all VRT bands are going up 1% for diesels, I assume it is. Classic govt tactic as it only affects "new entrants".

Not clear when it comes into effect... did anyone catch when?

Had a thread on it here
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057918439


Didnt see a timeframe, I assume it's from 1/1/19?

KCross

Yes, 1 Jan 2019

Its a good idea to only hit new sales. People cant complain then that they are being punished for picking diesel back in 2008.
The only issue is that 1% isnt enough to really make a difference.

n97 mini

KCross wrote: »

Yes, 1 Jan 2019

That'll probably trigger a rush between now and Jan 1? Although there are people who'll wait and pay extra for the vanity of having a 191 plate.

KCross

n97 mini wrote: »

That'll probably trigger a rush between now and Jan 1? Although there are people who'll wait and pay extra for the vanity of having a 191 plate.

Its literally a couple of hundred quid in a €30k purchase. They wont even see it in the price.
Waiting for 191 would be worth more in saved depreciation.

Zenith74

Pkiernan wrote: »

How does a carbon tax that is plundered like general taxation and not ring fenced for environmental improvement help anything?

It just lines the pockets of overpaid civil servants and non-workers.

Those are really two separate discussions and conflating them is not helpful.

Increasing the price of something is a VERY well proven way of disincentivising its use. The original proposal for the carbon tax was to collect it and then simply distribute it back to people (equally), so it's cost neutral to the economy as a whole, but disincentivises more carbon heavy activities. Feeding that money into the government budget isn't quite the same, but isn't a million miles off, maybe it allows the government decrease USC by 0.01% this year or something like that.

There's absolutely an argument that our government is inefficient and waste and that needs to be fixed, but this should be challenged separately and not used as an argument for hindering the implementation of proven techniques like the carbon tax.