Confiscation of personal belongings in schools

Shannonwalshy

I need some advice. Recently my efag has been confisated aswell as disposed by the Principle of my school. The efag was of value (100 euro) and I was wondering if the school has any legal right to do this?

I am of 18 years of age.

Is there any policy regarding this issue? Is the efag considered contraband and therefore can be disposed? Is this considered destruction of another ones property?

CIARAN_BOYLE

was the student that you gave the eciaratte too over the age of 18?

If not I would imagine you should be more concerned by criminal charges than the value of your eciaratte.

Hitman3000

Shannonwalshy wrote:

Is there any policy regarding this issue? Is the efag considered contraband and therefore can be disposed? Is this considered destruction of another ones property?

What's your school's policy on ecigerettes. Also the student you gave it to, how old was he?

Shannonwalshy

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

was the student that you gave the eciaratte too over the age of 18?

If not I would imagine you should be more concerned by criminal charges than the value of your eciaratte.

He already received his sanction by the school which was an evening detention so that has been dealt with so that is no longer the core problem.

I am asking whether or not the school has legal rights to dispose this item?

heebusjeebus

They disposed of the device because it was in the possession of a student.
Why would they give it back to the adult who might just give it back to the student again?

utyh2ikcq9z76b

Seriously? Take some personal responsibility!

Shannonwalshy

Hitman3000 wrote: »

What's your school's policy on ecigerettes. Also the student you gave it to, how old was he?

They are forbidden, just like cigarettes and alcohol.

wexie

Shannonwalshy wrote: »

No parents were contacted other than the boy caught smoking this device in the bathroom has received an evening detention as a result.

You should consider yourself lucky so, boy didn't rat you out to the school, parents didn't find out you're giving their kids ecigarettes.

I'd leave it at that if I were you, start rocking the boat and there'll be all kinds of awkward questions.

Hitman3000

Shannonwalshy wrote:

They are forbidden, just like cigarettes and alcohol.

So they are forbidden, school acted appropriately. What were you doing giving an ecig to a minor?

Shannonwalshy

Hitman3000 wrote: »

So they are forbidden, school acted appropriately. What were you doing giving an ecig to a minor?

Is it not still considered destruction of property though?

Stephen15

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

was the student that you gave the eciaratte too over the age of 18?

If not I would imagine you should be more concerned by criminal charges than the value of your eciaratte.

Aren't age restrictions on E-Cigs a bit of a legal grey area.

Hitman3000

Shannonwalshy wrote:

Is it not still considered destruction of property though?

So your response to any question posed to you will be a question in reply.
If you gave a minor an ecig you broke the law. I doubt you are in an position to try and take a grievance. I suggest you behave like an adult and move on.

GM228

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

was the student that you gave the eciaratte too over the age of 18?

If not I would imagine you should be more concerned by criminal charges than the value of your eciaratte.

What criminal charges? eCigs are not subject to the usual tobacco laws.

Shannonwalshy

Hitman3000 wrote: »

So your response to any question posed to you will be a question in reply.
If you gave a minor an ecig you broke the law. I doubt you are in an position to try and take a grievance. I suggest you behave like an adult and move on.

in fact, the student is of age.

wexie

Stephen15 wrote: »

Aren't age restrictions on E-Cigs a bit of a legal grey area.

hmmm....no

Go buy anything with nicotine in it and you'll need to be over 18.

Of course it's technically possible to use them with a 0mg juice so I guess in theory you could make that argument.

Good luck with that though. (in the current situation that is)

Hitman3000

Stephen15 wrote:

Aren't age restrictions on E-Cigs a bit of a legal grey area.

There is no grey area if the product contains nicotine.

wexie

Shannonwalshy wrote: »

in fact, the student is of age.

Look you could of course take it up with the principal but I'd imagine it wouldn't do you any favours if you are still in the school.

What is the outcome you're looking for here? Are you expecting the principal to buy you a new e cigarette?

Hitman3000

Shannonwalshy wrote:

in fact, the student is of age.

He still should not have had the device in school premises, again the school acted appropriately. You can ask your friend to pay for a new device since his actions caused the loss to you.

Shannonwalshy

wexie wrote: »

Look you could of course take it up with the principal but I'd imagine it wouldn't do you any favours if you are still in the school.

What is the outcome you're looking for here? Are you expecting the principal to buy you a new e cigarette?

God no. All I am asking if they have a legal right to dispose this item. Not expecting a good outcome either. It was all in my hands and I accept that. Just asking for some advice on this matter.

Shannonwalshy

Hitman3000 wrote: »

He still should not have had the device in school premises, again the school acted appropriately. You can ask your friend to pay for a new device since his actions caused the loss to you.

Alright, thanks for that.

sheesh

the school is "in loci parentis" and as such can do quiet a lot. They confiscated a banned item from a student the same way a parent would. If they didn't know it was yours well that is your problem, Legally the kid owes you one new e-ciggarette not the school.

GM228

Stephen15 wrote: »

Aren't age restrictions on E-Cigs a bit of a legal grey area.

No grey area, they ARE outside the scope of traditional tobacco laws (bar the provisions of the European Union (Manufacture, Presentation and Sale of Tobacco and Related Products) Regulations 2016 which does not deal with age etc unless for sale by a retailer).

The Public Health (Regulation of Electronic Cigarettes and Protection of Children) Bill 2015 was to deal with the issue but it lapsed with the dissolution of the Dáil.

RustyNut

Shannonwalshy wrote: »

Just asking for some advice on this matter.

I'd suggest that just like your ecig, you should just suck it up and move on.

wexie

Shannonwalshy wrote: »

God no. All I am asking if they have a legal right to dispose this item. Not expecting a good outcome either. It was all in my hands and I accept that. Just asking for some advice on this matter.

I'm not sure about a legal right, it's probably not so straightforward, maybe one of the legal minds can clarify how it works regarding contraband.

However.....let's say someone comes on and tells you the principal definitely didn't have to right to throw it out.

What do you do then? Let's face it you're unlikely to find a solicitor to come to your aid.

Would you really want to go toe to toe with the principal over this? As it stands it's sounds like he's unaware that it was yours in the first place. If you confront him about it it's extremely likely your parents will get involved to start with and it's not really going to put you in a good light with the principal.

I get it, it sucks, but I don't think that trying to do anything other than just chalking it up as a lesson learned is going to make things better rather than worse.

But, that's just my 2 bits

TheValeyard

Probably part of the school policies signed by parents. Along with behaviour policies, jewelry, moibles, etc all covered.

Out of luck OP.

evolving_doors

Shannonwalshy wrote: »

I need some advice. Recently my efag has been confisated aswell as disposed by the Principle of my school. The efag was of value (100 euro) and I was wondering if the school has any legal right to do this?

I am of 18 years of age.

Is there any policy regarding this issue? Is the efag considered contraband and therefore can be disposed? Is this considered destruction of another ones property?

If you want to go with.... "I'm 18 years of age" option in school it can play out like this:

Principal says 'fine', then refuses to deal with your parents in the event of any issues you have or trouble you cause.

I'd suggest you learn off the school policies before doing battle. Some education law too... or maybe just study your subjects, keep the head down and leaving cert your way out.

Shannonwalshy

wexie wrote: »

I'm not sure about a legal right, it's probably not so straightforward, maybe one of the legal minds can clarify how it works regarding contraband.

However.....let's say someone comes on and tells you the principal definitely didn't have to right to throw it out.

What do you do then? Let's face it you're unlikely to find a solicitor to come to your aid.

Would you really want to go toe to toe with the principal over this? As it stands it's sounds like he's unaware that it was yours in the first place. If you confront him about it it's extremely likely your parents will get involved to start with and it's not really going to put you in a good light with the principal.

I get it, it sucks, but I don't think that trying to do anything other than just chalking it up as a lesson learned is going to make things better rather than worse.

But, that's just my 2 bits

Okay, thank you. I did go to the principle today and that's how I found out it was disposed. Look it I've learned my lesson and i appreicate you taking your time to reply.

CIARAN_BOYLE

I woukd imagine that all students in the school and perhaps their parents signed a document agreeing to school rules including the confiscation and disposal of certain substances.

The only person you would have any come back with would be your friend who got it confiscated.

Shannonwalshy

evolving_doors wrote: »

If you want to go with.... "I'm 18 years of age" option in school it can play out like this:

Principal says 'fine', then refuses to deal with your parents in the event of any issues you have or trouble you cause.

I'd suggest you learn off the school policies before doing battle. Some education law too... or maybe just study your subjects, keep the head down and leaving cert your way out.

Infact, I have read the school policies regarding this issue and i couldn't find anything on this particular matter. This has no way affected my learning and I will continue keeping my head down, as I have always done.

ardinn

I for one wouldnt let this go to be honest.

What should have happened is they returned it to you at the end of the day and told you not to bring it in ever again - Simple, To throw away someones personal belongings, especially something worth €100 to a student, is something I would be demanding be replaced.

Would they do this with a phone? (serious question) or a tablet (device)??

I do not believe regardless of what policy the school has or what your parents signed (your 18, to agree you would have had to sign it)

The question is what do you do now. It's not worth going to a solicitor, it may be worth asking your parents to intervene if they know your on a vape.

Regardless, they took (stole even) your property and disposed of it without your knowledge or consent. It's basically theft in my eyes regardless of the "suck it up) brigades opinion on the matter!!

Stephen15

On a separate why would anyone pay €100 for an e-cig

Peregrinus

Shannonwalshy wrote: »

God no. All I am asking if they have a legal right to dispose this item. Not expecting a good outcome either. It was all in my hands and I accept that. Just asking for some advice on this matter.

Yes, they can dispose of it.

The school is in loco parentis with respect to students, meaning that it has the same control over students that parents have over children. This doesn't mean that the school has to treat a particular student the way that student's parent would treat him or her; it means they have the same rights to control, discipline, etc, the student that a parent would have.

Which means they can do things that, as between adults, would be unlawful. The school (or the parents) can impose detention (or "ground") a student; in other circumstances that would be false imprisonment, but not here. The schoo/parent can confiscate contraband, and it's not theft. Having confiscated it, they can do what they like with it. They can tell you what you may or may not wear. Etc, etc.

If you're a student who is over 18, and you don't care to be treated in this way, you can leave school, or you can go to a different school with rules more to your taste.

Grab All Association

Stephen15 wrote: »

On a separate why would anyone pay €100 for an e-cig

I assume she means a mod. Because that’s the price of the 220-230w mods and ecigs are shîte.

GM228

Peregrinus wrote: »

Yes, they can dispose of it.

The school is in loco parentis with respect to students, meaning that it has the same control over students that parents have over children.

What about when the child turns 18 and is no longer a "child", whilst parental rights and the resulting in loco parentis still applies to an extent surely the scope of control in relation to property then changes - i. e they (the school) can confiscate, but to destroy?

I thought property rights change when a person turns 18 and the control element is removed from the parent, for example property is no longer held in trust once 18 if I'm not mistaken. Can a parent destroy their 18+ childs property when in their own home?

Note - not my area of expertise Peregrinus so I'll bow to whatever answer you provide

Grab All Association

Here a good question to the OP. Has the school specifically stated they’ve banned vaping/mods in rules no doubt given to students and parents. Or did the principal just decide there and then to seize it.

To posters on here. You are aware that a lot of vapers especially teenagers use 0mg Nicotine liquids called shortfills. Basically just PG/VG and flavouring liquids.

Peregrinus

GM228 wrote: »

What about when the child turns 18 and is no longer a "child", whilst parental rights and the resulting in loco parentis still applies to an extent surely the scope of control in relation to property then changes - i. e they (the school) can confiscate, but to destroy?

I thought property rights change when a person turns 18 and the control element is removed from the parent, for example property is no longer held in trust once 18 if I'm not mistaken. Can a parent destroy their 18+ childs property when in their own home?

Note - not my area of expertise Peregrinus so I'll bow to whatever answer you provide

Not really my expertise either, and I suspect the answer is not entirely clear. In reality an over-18 year old who finds parental attitudes/restrictions/actions irritating can simply leave home. This is a much more accessible remedy than court proceedings, so I doubt if there is a court case testing a "my house, my rules" policy in which a parent has confiscated an 18-year old child's tobacco, cannabis, pornography or whatever.

I think in the school context, though, the smart money would be on the school being found to have this right, on the basis perhaps that an 18-year old isn't obliged to attend school at all but, if they do, they are taken to submit themselves to the school's in loco parentis role as though they were minors. It's unreasonable and unrealistic to expect schools to operate with disciplinary rules, practices, etc that don't apply to those of the senior students who have turned 18.

Shannonwalshy

ardinn wrote: »

I for one wouldnt let this go to be honest.

What should have happened is they returned it to you at the end of the day and told you not to bring it in ever again - Simple, To throw away someones personal belongings, especially something worth €100 to a student, is something I would be demanding be replaced.

Would they do this with a phone? (serious question) or a tablet (device)??

I do not believe regardless of what policy the school has or what your parents signed (your 18, to agree you would have had to sign it)

The question is what do you do now. It's not worth going to a solicitor, it may be worth asking your parents to intervene if they know your on a vape.

Regardless, they took (stole even) your property and disposed of it without your knowledge or consent. It's basically theft in my eyes regardless of the "suck it up) brigades opinion on the matter!!

I totally stand by this and so do my parents. I'm 18 now so I'm going into to school monday to speak about it further. I understand the disposal of drugs and alcohol as they are strictly forbidden. But am efag is classified as an electronic device worth value. In my perspective, it's just like a mobile phone. Yes we are not allowed use mobile phones at school and if we are caught, simple. They confiscate it and give it back at the end of the day. I'm going to take this further with the school and demand it back.

spurious

Did you, or your parents sign something on entry along the lines of 'I will follow the rules of this school?'.

Shannonwalshy

spurious wrote: »

Did you, or your parents sign something on entry along the lines of 'I will follow the rules of this school?'.

Every year you get a new journal and in the first couple of pages there are the rules and then somewhere for you and a parent to sign to agree to the rules. I only ever signed this once. 5 years ago to be exact. No where does it state that personal belongings will be disposed. It states that mobile phones are forbidden and will be confiscated but nothing else on that matter. I also took the time to search up my schools policies and when it came to the substance policy there was nothing there. It was blank. The school previously had an issue (with the lads in our year) previously about the use of efags inside school premises but never have they ever mentioned that if found it will be disposed immediately without delay. Nor was it adressed to the school as whole. Parents were not contacted either.

evolving_doors

Shannonwalshy wrote: »

I totally stand by this and so do my parents. I'm 18 now so I'm going into to school monday to speak about it further. I understand the disposal of drugs and alcohol as they are strictly forbidden. But am efag is classified as an electronic device worth value. In my perspective, it's just like a mobile phone. Yes we are not allowed use mobile phones at school and if we are caught, simple. They confiscate it and give it back at the end of the day. I'm going to take this further with the school and demand it back.

Hold on... did you edit your original post?

I thought your thingy was confiscated from another student as you had loaned it to them earlier... and they were under 18! So on the basis of this, your intention to get compensation mightnt be so solid.

But anyway hypothetically.... yes I've heard second hand of students getting compensation because a school damaged a confiscated phone etc.

Let us know how/if it progresses.

L1011

GM228 wrote: »

What about when the child turns 18 and is no longer a "child", whilst parental rights and the resulting in loco parentis still applies to an extent surely the scope of control in relation to property then changes - i. e they (the school) can confiscate, but to destroy?

I thought property rights change when a person turns 18 and the control element is removed from the parent, for example property is no longer held in trust once 18 if I'm not mistaken. Can a parent destroy their 18+ childs property when in their own home?

Note - not my area of expertise Peregrinus so I'll bow to whatever answer you provide

Having had, and 'won' an argument with my school at 18 where they dug up a 6 year old document signed by my mother as their sole argument of support; I'd imagine that anyone who is capable of debate is going to convince the school to stop any claims of parental control.

Admittedly I was an awful little **** in secondary school, in irritating ways rather than malevolent or scummy ones, so there were constant battles with the management. That the principal was a councillor for one party and I was a member of another actually helped in some ways!

evolving_doors

L1011 wrote: »

Having had, and 'won' an argument with my school at 18 where they dug up a 6 year old document signed by my mother as their sole argument of support; I'd imagine that anyone who is capable of debate is going to convince the school to stop any claims of parental control.

Admittedly I was an awful little **** in secondary school, in irritating ways rather than malevolent or scummy ones, so there were constant battles with the management. That the principal was a councillor for one party and I was a member of another actually helped in some ways!

1. We don't know if the school will proceed using the 'parental control' issue.
2. They acted in loco parentis for someone else under 18 not the op.
3. The OP said they've read all the rules... but have they read all the school policy documents correctly? Maybe they missed something. We can't fully say what's what here unless we read them ourselves.
4. List of rules in a school journal can never be exhaustive. But if the school isn't clever they mightnt have sound policy documents.

Shannonwalshy

evolving_doors wrote: »

1. We don't know if the school will proceed using the 'parental control' issue.
2. They acted in loco parentis for someone else under 18 not the op.
3. The OP said they've read all the rules... but have they read all the school policy documents correctly? Maybe they missed something. We can't fully say what's what here unless we read them ourselves.
4. List of rules in a school journal can never be exhaustive. But if the school isn't clever they mightnt have sound policy documents.

Ever since we got the new principle it's been nothing but hell. She is very strict. Even with facial piercings, in the school rules it states that facial piercings of any kind are not allowed and if you have one you will be asked to remove it. If you don't remove you will be asked to go home unless removed. That's the rule. The principle goes past this rule and confiscates them as well as dispose.
Their policies are stated in the school website. I thoroughly read through them except the substance policy as there was nothing in it to he read. Literally it was blank.
I'm probably going to have another chat with the principle and ask for an official statement or rule that she has the right to dispose this device.

splinter65

Some parents send kids go to school to get taught and some parents send kids to school to be a menace and try their hardest to prevent the teachers from doing their job.
Then the kid is 30 and in a mess because it turns out in the end that sometimes rules and regulations are a good idea and the cooperative people seem to get on much better.
Ah well, plus ca change etc