Bulk buy diesel fuel

Shefwedfan

I am just wondering do many people bulk buy(1000ltr) of diesel?

I have a spare tank and was thinking of filling it with diesel.


Just wondering do people do it? which companies would supply? just a standard home user

Gregor Samsa

My father-in-law used to do it, but he had a truck and lived in quite a remote place.

I'm not sure who he used to get it from, but Emo have this page on deliveries of road diesel: https://www.emo.ie/diesel-fuel

Delivery is more common for green diesel for farms, etc.

Shefwedfan

phutyle wrote: »

My father-in-law used to do it, but he had a truck and lived in quite a remote place.

I'm not sure who he used to get it from, but Emo have this page on deliveries of road diesel: https://www.emo.ie/diesel-fuel

Delivery is more common for green diesel for farms, etc.

I know, my brother got 10,000 ltr of green diesel deliverey the other day....thats what got me thinking :P he also get 2,000 ltr of car diesel at the same time......


It might guard against the price gouging at the pumps....with the budget coming up every diesel garage has put up a few cent per ltr.....


Someone asked in Ashbourne recently and lady at till said she was sent up the street to check what other garages prices where and then they put it up

George Dalton

There is little or no saving to be made last I checked. Although obviously we don’t know what the budget is going to bring. There is also a serious risk of certain demographics helping themselves to the contents of your tank. You could lose €1000 in an attempt to save €50. So overall not worth it IMO.

Mooooo

Any oil company will deliver it, price around they aren't always any cheaper than the pumps. Make sure the tank is clean and no water leaks. Also have it out of sight somewhere as tanks in sight are prone to being visited in the middle of the night. Used to get it here as get kerosene and tractor diesel as well but do so little mileage I just use the garage now

coylemj

Word is that diesel will not be hit in the budget because that ragtag bunch of TDs in the independent alliance have finally seen sense and agreed with the minister that putting the rate of VAT in the hospitality sector (who are creaming it and still pleading poverty) back to 13.5% is a better option than 10c on a litre of diesel.

Budget 2019: Independent TDs concede hospitality VAT hike to avoid diesel rise

doolox

I would look into the planning and permissions needed for having two tanks, one for home heat and the other for DERV.

Do not mix the two up or customs may test and take your car off you.

The security risks would also stop me doing this.

We have 3 tanks for about 30 years and most houses around us have at least two if not 3 tanks also. We have Green diesel, road diesel and kerosene and never heard any such thing as needing planning. Why would you?

ELM327

doolox wrote: »

I would look into the planning and permissions needed for having two tanks, one for home heat and the other for DERV.

Do not mix the two up or customs may test and take your car off you.

The security risks would also stop me doing this.

Why would you need planning for a tank? It's a tank not a building. It's probably smaller square footage than a garden shed which you also don't need planning for!


Customs do not "take the car off you". On the off chance you mix the two up and put the wrong fuel in and on a second off chance that the one time you do it you get tested, the first offence is a 1,000EUR fine at the side of the road (or 30 days to pay). You are given a written notice to remove the fuel within 24 hours. The car is not taken.

ELM327

Micah Mango Pinhole wrote: »

We have 3 tanks. Green diesel, road diesel and kerosene and never heard any such thing as needing planning. Why would you?

You dont need planning! What a silly idea :P
Next you'll need planning to park your car somewhere.

Timfy

ELM327 wrote: »

You dont need planning! What a silly idea :P
Next you'll need planning to park your car somewhere.

I think that stricter regulations, inspections and possible planning consent becomes an issue with tanks over 3500l even on domestic properties.

ELM327

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I am just wondering do many people bulk buy(1000ltr) of diesel?

I have a spare tank and was thinking of filling it with diesel.


Just wondering do people do it? which companies would supply? just a standard home user

Timfy wrote: »

I think that stricter regulations, inspections and possible planning consent becomes an issue with tanks over 3500l even on domestic properties.

Not to impugn your suggestion but a) it's the first I've heard of it and b) OP was talking about 1,000l tank

Gregor Samsa

ELM327 wrote: »

Not to impugn your suggestion but a) it's the first I've heard of it and b) OP was talking about 1,000l tank

Domestic central heating oil storage tanks are exempt structures up to a capacity of 3,500 litres:

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2001/si/600/made/en/print

CLASS 2

The provision, as part of a central heating system of a house, of a chimney, boiler house or oil storage tank.

The capacity of any such oil storage tank shall not exceed 3,500 litres.

It doesn't mention vehicle fuel storage either way. There could be other regulations that apply.

ELM327

phutyle wrote: »

Domestic central heating oil storage tanks are exempt structures up to a capacity of 3,500 litres:

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2001/si/600/made/en/print



It doesn't mention vehicle fuel storage either way. There could be other regulations that apply.

Oil storage would cover it. It's unmarked gas oil. IE the opposite to MGO, or marked gas oil, commonly referred to as Green Diesel.


So once it's 3499 litres or less it's grand.

Timfy

ELM327 wrote: »

Not to impugn your suggestion but a) it's the first I've heard of it and b) OP was talking about 1,000l tank

Sorry, I probably wasn't clear enough... What I was trying to get over was that there are no planning implications for "standard" size oil tanks, such as the OP mentioned.

For larger tanks (Unashamedly cut and pasted as I'm no professional!)

Installing a fuel tank is considered to be permitted development, not needing planning permission, subject to the following limits and conditions:

Not more than 3,500 litres capacity.
Not forward of the principal elevation fronting a highway.
Maximum overall height of three metres.
Maximum height 2.5 metres within two metres of a boundary.
Not more than half the area of land around the "original house"* would be covered by additions or other buildings.
In National Parks, the Broads, Areas of Outstanding Natural Beauty and World Heritage Sites the maximum area to be covered by buildings, enclosures, containers and pools more than 20 metres from house to be limited to 10 square metres.
Not at the side of properties on designated land*.
Within the curtilage of listed buildings any container will require planning permission.

Section 5 of the Building Regulations 2014

Shefwedfan

As per posts....no planning needed


Just a tank and a safe place to install. Sticky fingers are an issue but you can have the same issue with home heating oil in my area....

I am fairly well guarded so I dont have issue with safety and large enough site to "hide" the tank from vision while still giving access to vehicles...

I dont think as mentioned above the government will hit diesel this year, mostly due to upcoming election. This is more of a market fluctuation protection. Longer terms plan would be to get rid of diesel and I can just convert to second home heating oil tanks.....

mikeecho

A quick look on cheapestoil.ie

https://m50oil.com/ 1000L = €1390

https://www.mcloil.com/PriceCalculation.aspx?QI=u/EZpXncmQ0= 1000L = €1420.40

If you're gonna be storing road diesel in an old heating oil tank, you'll have to figure out how you're gonna get in from oil tank to car.
You'll need a fuel pump nosel and some hose.
Those diesel nossels/guns aren't cheap.

Shefwedfan

mikeecho wrote: »

A quick look on cheapestoil.ie

https://m50oil.com/ 1000L = €1390

https://www.mcloil.com/PriceCalculation.aspx?QI=u/EZpXncmQ0= 1000L = €1420.40

If you're gonna be storing road diesel in an old heating oil tank, you'll have to figure out how you're gonna get in from oil tank to car.
You'll need a fuel pump nosel and some hose.
Those diesel nossels/guns aren't cheap.

Their is always a way and a means :P

mikeecho

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Their is always a way and a means :P

If you have to buy the gun, hose and any connectors, that could wipe out any savings to be made.

Realistically, using a fuel card that gives 4c off/L and buying at the cheapest station will probably work out cheaper.

As for price rises in diesel, winter is coming, demand increases and prices increase.
Carbon tax, yes it will be raised in this budget, but as in other budgets, it may not be applied until April or May.
That's what happened with carbon tax on coal etc the last time.

Atlantic Dawn

No carbon tax increase tomorrow according to RTE...

https://www.rte.ie/news/budget-2019/2018/1008/1001743-budget-outline/

Pique

Shefwedfan wrote:

I know, my brother got 10,000 ltr of green diesel deliverey the other day....thats what got me thinking he also get 2,000 ltr of car diesel at the same time......

Jaysus. 10k litres. How long does that last him?

mikeecho

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

No carbon tax increase tomorrow according to RTE...

https://www.rte.ie/news/budget-2019/2018/1008/1001743-budget-outline/

Excise/Duty might be increased.
Time will tell.

Eric Cartman

Beyond the lack of saving for diesel , you also need a delivery method


https://www.donedeal.ie/view/18316198

Seems pricey , and then some of our more mobile residents would be like flys on sh*t trying to drill a hole in it and get to the contents

Mooooo

mikeecho wrote: »

A quick look on cheapestoil.ie

https://m50oil.com/ 1000L = €1390

https://www.mcloil.com/PriceCalculation.aspx?QI=u/EZpXncmQ0= 1000L = €1420.40

If you're gonna be storing road diesel in an old heating oil tank, you'll have to figure out how you're gonna get in from oil tank to car.
You'll need a fuel pump nosel and some hose.
Those diesel nossels/guns aren't cheap.

The hose and guns can be supplied by oil company, if his bro is getting that much they will prob throw it in. You can put the tank on a height above the car so no need for a pump but by right would have to put bunding around it in case it leaks/ burst. Hard to keep out of sight then as well

Shefwedfan

Pique wrote: »

Jaysus. 10k litres. How long does that last him?

When you have 3 tractors, a digger etc it doesn't last that long.....


I know filling one of the big tractors takes longer than my car :-)

Eric Cartman

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Beyond the lack of saving for diesel , you also need a delivery method


https://www.donedeal.ie/view/18316198

Seems pricey , and then some of our more mobile residents would be like flys on sh*t trying to drill a hole in it and get to the contents

Gravity feed is fine for home refuelling, just keep the tank a little elevated and not need for pumps etc.

mikeecho

OP. You have stated that your brother bulk buys fuel, so it's likely that he gets a better rate than what's on the oil suppliers website when buying many ,000's of litres.

I'd imagine you could piggy back off his next order, and just add an extra 1k Litres on his next delivery and get a better deal.

If your brother is using the road diesel for commercial use, it's quite possible that he is able to claim the VAT back as well... that would further reduce the cost.

But if you're using it for private domestic use, you shouldn't be claiming the VAT back... and you'll have to make sure that he doesn't accidentally claim the vat back


BTW how long do you think 1,000L will last ?
Storing it for more than 6 months in a non airtight container , storing in a location where condensation would occur would all deteriorate the quality of the fuel.

Shefwedfan

mikeecho wrote: »

OP. You have stated that your brother bulk buys fuel, so it's likely that he gets a better rate than what's on the oil suppliers website when buying many ,000's of litres.

I'd imagine you could piggy back off his next order, and just add an extra 1k Litres on his next delivery and get a better deal.

If your brother is using the road diesel for commercial use, it's quite possible that he is able to claim the VAT back as well... that would further reduce the cost.

But if you're using it for private domestic use, you shouldn't be claiming the VAT back... and you'll have to make sure that he doesn't accidentally claim the vat back


BTW how long do you think 1,000L will last ?
Storing it for more than 6 months in a non airtight container , storing in a location where condensation would occur would all deteriorate the quality of the fuel.

He is too far away so can't piggy back, he doesn't get VAT off.



I would guess 1000 ltr would probably last at least a year....maybe.....

L1011

Mooooo wrote: »

The hose and guns can be supplied by oil company, if his bro is getting that much they will prob throw it in. You can put the tank on a height above the car so no need for a pump but by right would have to put bunding around it in case it leaks/ burst. Hard to keep out of sight then as well

Not a hope they'd "throw it in", the profit on 10,000l is significantly less than you seem to think

Everyone saying you don't need planning is saying it based off people getting away with it rather than the actual law. Home heating oil tanks are exempted development, fuel tanks are not

If you wanted to store petrol rather than diesel you'd be in to a world of hurt regulation wise as it is hugely regulated, diesel isn't - but the tank does need planning.

mikeecho

Shefwedfan wrote: »

He is too far away so can't piggy back, he doesn't get VAT off.



I would guess 1000 ltr would probably last at least a year....maybe.....

Its something I looked into before, I was going to fill an ibc.

But I decided against, for lots of reasons.

1.mess / leaks .. what will you do if your tank develops a major leak.. how will you save your fuel? , how will you deal with soil contamination ?

2.fuel deterioration
3.risk of price change (can go either way)
4. Costs of hose/nossel can negate savings on initial or second load.

5. Fuel cards can give better rates than buying from suppliers.

6. Extra effort.. there's a lot to be said for just pulling up to a service station, filling up quick and easy, with no spillage.

Shefwedfan

L1011 wrote: »

Not a hope they'd "throw it in", the profit on 10,000l is significantly less than you seem to think

Everyone saying you don't need planning is saying it based off people getting away with it rather than the actual law. Home heating oil tanks are exempted development, fuel tanks are not

If you wanted to store petrol rather than diesel you'd be in to a world of hurt regulation wise as it is hugely regulated, diesel isn't - but the tank does need planning.

I have checked and cannot see any reference to planning permission for additional tank?


Can you provide a link that says you need planning permission please


Not sure anyone would ever risk storing petrol....

Nekarsulm

Pique wrote: »

Jaysus. 10k litres. How long does that last him?

Most tractors hold between 50 and 90 gallons nowadays.
If they are working 10 or 12 hours, they'd need filling every night.
Combines and self propelled harvesters typically hold up to 400 gallons.
You'd expect to get 2 or 3 days out of that.
Most agri contractors would have the oil tanker rendevous with them in the field, or the farmers yard.
Thats all green diesel.
The average artic truck you meet on the road costs about €1000 to fill with diesel.

L1011

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I have checked and cannot see any reference to planning permission for additional tank?


Can you provide a link that says you need planning permission please


Not sure anyone would ever risk storing petrol....

Anything which isn't an exempted development needs planning permission. It isn't on the exempted development criteria list.

Shefwedfan

L1011 wrote: »

Anything which isn't an exempted development needs planning permission. It isn't on the exempted development criteria list.

Where is the exempted development list?



Never in my life heard of anyone putting in for planning for an additional tank for fuel


Do you put in for planning if you have 2 oil tanks which I know a lot of people are doing now? so 2 x standard 1100/1000 ltr tanks?

L1011

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Where is the exempted development list?



Never in my life heard of anyone putting in for planning for an additional tank for fuel


Do you put in for planning if you have 2 oil tanks which I know a lot of people are doing now? so 2 x standard 1100/1000 ltr tanks?

It was linked in post 13.

A second tank would need permission. A second satellite dish needs planning permission. Basically everything not stated to be exempted requires permission; piss poor enforcement doesn't make something legal - although if its there for 7 years they lose effective enforcement powers.

ELM327

L1011 wrote: »

It was linked in post 13.

A second tank would need permission. A second satellite dish needs planning permission. Basically everything not stated to be exempted requires permission; piss poor enforcement doesn't make something legal - although if its there for 7 years they lose effective enforcement powers.

Why?
Installing a fuel tank is considered to be permitted development, not needing planning permission, subject to the following limits and conditions:

Not more than 3,500 litres capacity.
Not forward of the principal elevation fronting a highway.
Maximum overall height of three metres.
Maximum height 2.5 metres within two metres of a boundary.
Not more than half the area of land around the "original house"* would be covered by additions or other buildings.
In National Parks, the Broads, Areas of Outstanding Natural Beauty and World Heritage Sites the maximum area to be covered by buildings, enclosures, containers and pools more than 20 metres from house to be limited to 10 square metres.
Not at the side of properties on designated land*.
Within the curtilage of listed buildings any container will require planning permission.

Section 5 of the Building Regulations 2014

mikeecho

Jeez... always a jobs worth with their regulations.

L1011

That's for a home heating tank. Unless you run your home heating on road diesel you can't avail of that exemption

mikeecho

L1011 wrote: »

That's for a home heating tank. Unless you run your home heating on road diesel you can't avail of that exemption

Lots of older home heating systems run on diesel.. nothing to say you have to run it on green diesel ... ..

Even though it might make more financel sense.

L1011

mikeecho wrote: »

Lots of older home heating systems run on diesel.. nothing to say you have to run it on green diesel ... ..

Even though it might make more financel sense.

If you're trying to save a fraction on fuel costs by bulk buying you won't want to be using road diesel to heat your house!

A family members house still is heated on green diesel, the smell is hideous. Boiler must be 40 years old and has to be started from the boiler house as all other controls failed years ago.

mickdw

Buy bulk to run car used to be a thing here but not recently. I note local car dealer just uses account at local filling station so they probably get a slightly better price and not worth bulk buying for them either.

One thing to watch out for when storing something other than heating oil is the possibility of a leak. Now a farmer out on his own will likely get away with it unnoticed but someone living in a semi d might not. Imagine, your diesel leaks to soil and spreads into neighbouring property - You would want to be sure you were insured for that as the costs can be outrageous.

I know of a case where heating oil spilled out and home owner thought it would be a great idea to claim for the full tank of oil that was lost.
Ended up costing them a fortune.

Del2005

ELM327 wrote: »

Why?
Installing a fuel tank is considered to be permitted development, not needing planning permission, subject to the following limits and conditions:

Not more than 3,500 litres capacity.
Not forward of the principal elevation fronting a highway.
Maximum overall height of three metres.
Maximum height 2.5 metres within two metres of a boundary.
Not more than half the area of land around the "original house"* would be covered by additions or other buildings.
In National Parks, the Broads, Areas of Outstanding Natural Beauty and World Heritage Sites the maximum area to be covered by buildings, enclosures, containers and pools more than 20 metres from house to be limited to 10 square metres.
Not at the side of properties on designated land*.
Within the curtilage of listed buildings any container will require planning permission.

Section 5 of the Building Regulations 2014

That's for a tank not tanks. You can have 1 tank up to 3500l not multiple tanks.

Marcusm

ELM327 wrote: »

Why?
Installing a fuel tank is considered to be permitted development, not needing planning permission, subject to the following limits and conditions:

Not more than 3,500 litres capacity.
Not forward of the principal elevation fronting a highway.
Maximum overall height of three metres.
Maximum height 2.5 metres within two metres of a boundary.
Not more than half the area of land around the "original house"* would be covered by additions or other buildings.
In National Parks, the Broads, Areas of Outstanding Natural Beauty and World Heritage Sites the maximum area to be covered by buildings, enclosures, containers and pools more than 20 metres from house to be limited to 10 square metres.
Not at the side of properties on designated land*.
Within the curtilage of listed buildings any container will require planning permission.

Section 5 of the Building Regulations 2014

It’s class 2 exempted development as listed in schedule 1 to the 2001 Planning & Developnent Regs (si 600/2001) andvthe privision of an “oil storage” tank is only exempt development “as part of a central heating system of a house”.

mikeecho

One of my local circle k had a rebranding day, and had 10￠ off L, visa also had an offer of €10 off a €50 spend at circle k.

Using my visa and her visa, and then repeated the process at another circle k being rebranded.. I currently have over 200L of diesel in 25L drums.

It cost me about 1.029/l

I also bought diesel with 10￠off, with a fuel card, giving another 4￠off.

I've enough to see me for a few months

Turbohymac

Absolutely pointless as getting it delivered bulk sometimes is actually more expensive than buying at the filling stations.. also if it gets stolen it will then be very expensive

Shefwedfan

mikeecho wrote: »

One of my local circle k had a rebranding day, and had 10￠ off L, visa also had an offer of €10 off a €50 spend at circle k.

Using my visa and her visa, and then repeated the process at another circle k being rebranded.. I currently have over 200L of diesel in 25L drums.

It cost me about 1.029/l

I also bought diesel with 10￠off, with a fuel card, giving another 4￠off.

I've enough to see me for a few months

I hope you have planning for those 25L drums.....

Shefwedfan

L1011 wrote: »

Anything which isn't an exempted development needs planning permission. It isn't on the exempted development criteria list.

I love the way people double down when they know they are not right....argue to the death



So I have a 13ft trampoline which is bigger than a tank, also a jungle gym climbing frame, plus a kids playhouse...


Are you trying to tell me that all of them I should have got planning permission?

L1011

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I love the way people double down when they know they are not right....argue to the death



So I have a 13ft trampoline which is bigger than a tank, also a jungle gym climbing frame, plus a kids playhouse...


Are you trying to tell me that all of them I should have got planning permission?

Playhouses would be sheds which have exemptions, assuming it meets them. Which they will unless huge. The others aren't permanent fixtures.

You don't understand the planning laws and have decided to believe the "ah sure its grand" posters over the actual law cited.

Crap enforcement does not mean something is legal. The reality is you'll probably get away with it indefinitely but there's plenty of other stuff that you can get away with that isn't legal.

Shefwedfan

L1011 wrote: »

Playhouses would be sheds which have exemptions, assuming it meets them. Which they will unless huge. The others aren't permanent fixtures.

You don't understand the planning laws and have decided to believe the "ah sure its grand" posters over the actual law cited.

Crap enforcement does not mean something is legal. The reality is you'll probably get away with it indefinitely but there's plenty of other stuff that you can get away with that isn't legal.

It is fairly easy to just blame crap enforcement....you could say it is crap or more correctly they don't have anything to enforce.....

Never in my life till this thread have I heard of something as absurd as planning for another small tank.......

Playhouse is a shed???

Jumgle gym is connected to the ground and cannot be moved, so 100% permanent

The trampoline is also connected to the ground and is never moved. So it is permanent as well

So according to your comments I need planning for at least 2 of those.......

L1011

You've been linked to the planning legislation in question. You can keep thinking it's not real, but it is.

People have been made remove playhouses that didn't qualify for exemption. Generally ones that are too tall

Shefwedfan

L1011 wrote: »

You've been linked to the planning legislation in question. You can keep thinking it's not real, but it is.

People have been made remove playhouses that didn't qualify for exemption. Generally ones that are too tall

Keep digging....