How much does weight lifted matter for muscle gain

nosh1tsherlock

For example if someone rests 3-5 minutes inbetween sets then they will be able to lift alot more then someone that rests 1-2 minutes. Some programs have people only resting 60 seconds . can you build muscle in your legs doing barbell squats and only resting 60 seconds inbetween sets , the weight wont be much but the burn will be high?

freemenfitness

There are so many variables your leaving out that make this a very difficult to answer. As in the amount of weight lifted, how many reps, the experience of the person lifting, the intensity of the lift, exercise selection etc.

Rest duration is often in line with number of reps and intensity of the lift. The common hypertrophy range of 6-10 will have a lower weight used as well as a lower rest period.

Also "burn" is not something you want to be experiencing in any lift.

On the other side you have lower rep with higher weight which can have massive breaks. For example Clarence Kennedy below takes 15 minute rests between sets and only really lifts up to 5 reps but with very high intensity.

Anyway I hope this helps in some way but if you can offer a more clear question I can try help.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvrzgKsRnJ0

Mellor

It depends

freemenfitness

Mellor wrote: »

It depends

This is what a good coach will say almost all the time.

nosh1tsherlock

Heres an example of what im talking about

Exercise : Barbell Squat
Sets 5 in the rep range 12,10,8,6,12 increasing the weight as the reps decrease
Rest 60 seconds only inbetween sets

Example

Set 1 12 reps of 40 kg
Set 2 10 reps of 60kg
Set 3 8 reps of 80 kg
Set 4 6 reps of 100kg
Set 5 12 reps of 80 kg

Rest only 60 seconds inbetween all those sets , then after set 5 go straight into a superset of leg extension for 12 reps

I just wondering what kind of affect a muscle building affect a workout like that would have on your body as oposed to doing ripptoe or strong lifts routine where you are lifting alot more weight because your resting 3-5 minutes inbetween sets and doing alot less reps per set(4-6)

Dtp1979

nosh1tsherlock wrote: »

Heres an example of what im talking about

Exercise : Barbell Squat
Sets 5 in the rep range 12,10,8,6,12 increasing the weight as the reps decrease
Rest 60 seconds only inbetween sets

Example

Set 1 12 reps of 40 kg
Set 2 10 reps of 60kg
Set 3 8 reps of 80 kg
Set 4 6 reps of 100kg
Set 5 12 reps of 80 kg

Rest only 60 seconds inbetween all those sets , then after set 5 go straight into a superset of leg extension for 12 reps

I just wondering what kind of affect a muscle building affect a workout like that would have on your body as oposed to doing ripptoe or strong lifts routine where you are lifting alot more weight because your resting 3-5 minutes inbetween sets and doing alot less reps per set(4-6)

The above is more a bodybuilding workout. Loads of reps.
Stronglifts are more for strength.

Brian?

nosh1tsherlock wrote: »

Heres an example of what im talking about

Exercise : Barbell Squat
Sets 5 in the rep range 12,10,8,6,12 increasing the weight as the reps decrease
Rest 60 seconds only inbetween sets

Example

Set 1 12 reps of 40 kg
Set 2 10 reps of 60kg
Set 3 8 reps of 80 kg
Set 4 6 reps of 100kg
Set 5 12 reps of 80 kg

Rest only 60 seconds inbetween all those sets , then after set 5 go straight into a superset of leg extension for 12 reps

I just wondering what kind of affect a muscle building affect a workout like that would have on your body as oposed to doing ripptoe or strong lifts routine where you are lifting alot more weight because your resting 3-5 minutes inbetween sets and doing alot less reps per set(4-6)

I don't think you should be resting 3-5 minutes between sets on any workout. Do starting strength or stronglifts reccomend 3-5 minutes?

If I was preparing to test my 1 rep max I might rest 3 minutes between the last couple of singles.

Diet would be a much bigger factor in building muscle. Eating 2g of protein per kg of bodyweight and at least a 500kcal surplus.

Having said that, get to a 2xbodyweight squat and see how much muscle you've gained.

Alf Veedersane

Brian? wrote: »

I don't think you should be resting 3-5 minutes between sets on any workout.

If that's how long you need to rest to make sure you get through your next heavy set properly, then how long you rest isn't really an issue.

caviardreams

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

If that's how long you need to rest to make sure you get through your next heavy set properly, then how long you rest isn't really an issue.

I'd agree with this personally.
I usually rest 2:30-3 mins between sets of my main compound all the time - maybe even 4 minutes if I am testing a really heavy single. Then 1-1:30 on accessories.

If you are resting 3 minutes between sets of rear delt flyes or lateral raises it is one thing, but 3 minutes between sets of squats, bench etc, I would think is fine - it takes me that long to recover tbh.

Dtp1979

caviardreams wrote: »

I'd agree with this personally.
I usually rest 2:30-3 mins between sets of my main compound all the time - maybe even 4 minutes if I am testing a really heavy single. Then 1-1:30 on accessories.

If you are resting 3 minutes between sets of rear delt flyes or lateral raises it is one thing, but 3 minutes between sets of squats, bench etc, I would think is fine - it takes me that long to recover tbh.

Same here. Could even be up to 5 minutes. The heavier strength based taxing sets the longer the rest. The bodybuildery sets I’d cut the rest back to get the pump

Brian?

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

If that's how long you need to rest to make sure you get through your next heavy set properly, then how long you rest isn't really an issue.

I think you misunderstood my point. I don't think it's needed, not that it's detrimental. If it's been given as a rule of the program, I'd worry about the program. I think the OP has taken up something wrong.

It's not as if the gains are going to fade after 5 minutes, but imagine doing a 5x5 and resting 5 minutes between each set though? That's 25 minutes of rest for each movement

Workout A: Squat 5×5, Bench Press 5×5, Barbell Row 5×5
Workout B: Squat 5×5, Overhead Press 5×5, Deadlift 1×5

75 minutes rest for workout A and 55 minutes rest for workout B. Sure you'd be in the gym all bleeding night.


In anyways, this is what that Belgian lad who wrote Stronglifts reccomends:

1min30 if you easily completed five reps on your last set
3min if you struggled to get five reps on your last set
5min if you failed to get five reps on your last set

So not 3-5 minutes.

I can't find what Rippetoe reccomends for Starting Strength. Probably "rest until you feel ready". Which, as you say, is the correct rest period.

Brian?

Dtp1979 wrote: »

Same here. Could even be up to 5 minutes. The heavier strength based taxing sets the longer the rest. The bodybuildery sets I’d cut the rest back to get the pump

Who doesn't love a good pump, eh?

Mr. CooL ICE

Brian? wrote: »

imagine doing a 5x5 and resting 5 minutes between each set though? That's 25 minutes of rest for each movement

Technically, it's 20 minutes rest

Dtp1979

Then again it depends what muscle you’re working on I’d say. For me, squatting 5 x 8 @70% would warrant more rest than the same at benching

Brian?

Dole Scrounging Vegan Crossfitter wrote: »

Technically, it's 20 minutes rest

You’re right. Still a **** load of time spent waiting.

Brian?

Dtp1979 wrote: »

Then again it depends what muscle you’re working on I’d say. For me, squatting 5 x 8 @70% would warrant more rest than the same at benching

I’d be the opposite. I’d rest more between bench sets.

But that’s my point really. Rest the amount needed, not an arbitrary number defined in a program.

Alf Veedersane

Brian? wrote: »

I think you misunderstood my point. I don't think it's needed, not that it's detrimental. If it's been given as a rule of the program, I'd worry about the program. I think the OP has taken up something wrong.

It's not as if the gains are going to fade after 5 minutes, but imagine doing a 5x5 and resting 5 minutes between each set though? That's 25 minutes of rest for each movement

Workout A: Squat 5×5, Bench Press 5×5, Barbell Row 5×5
Workout B: Squat 5×5, Overhead Press 5×5, Deadlift 1×5

75 minutes rest for workout A and 55 minutes rest for workout B. Sure you'd be in the gym all bleeding night.


In anyways, this is what that Belgian lad who wrote Stronglifts reccomends:

1min30 if you easily completed five reps on your last set
3min if you struggled to get five reps on your last set
5min if you failed to get five reps on your last set

So not 3-5 minutes.

I can't find what Rippetoe reccomends for Starting Strength. Probably "rest until you feel ready". Which, as you say, is the correct rest period.

Fairy nuff. I just took it as you shouldn't have longer rests when you said you didn't someone should be resting 3-5 minutes between sets on any workout.

nosh1tsherlock

What Im trying to determine is what matters more for Hypertrophy(Muscle building)Weight lifted or Muscle Fatique -I want to leave the strength equation out. For example lets take Incline Dumbbell press if a guy can press 40kg in each hand for 6-8 reps but only if he rests for 3 mins in between all sets . Will the muscle building affect of the workout suffer if he decreases the weight to 30kg but also decreases the rest betweens sets to 60-90 secs meaning he will achieve muscle failure at a lighter weight because the rest is shorter

Alf Veedersane

nosh1tsherlock wrote: »

What Im trying to determine is what matters more for Hypertrophy(Muscle building)Weight lifted or Muscle Fatique -I want to leave the strength equation out. For example lets take Incline Dumbbell press if a guy can press 40kg in each hand for 6-8 reps but only if he rests for 3 mins in between all sets . Will the muscle building affect of the workout suffer if he decreases the weight to 30kg but also decreases the rest betweens sets to 60-90 secs meaning he will achieve muscle failure at a lighter weight because the rest is shorter

If he presses 40s for 4 sets of 8 with 3 mins rest, he'll be doing better than if he presses 30s for sets of 12, 10, 9, 8 with shorter rests.

It's not really about achieving muscular failure. Volume is more important. That said, you don't want to be doing reps with a weight that is well within your capabilities.

If you were operating in a rep range of 5 or less, you would find it more taxing across a week becaise it's harder on your CNS to be doing multiple heavy sets of 3/4/5 @8/9 than it is to do sets of 8-10 @8/9. You'll recover quicker and likely be able to handle more volume of that movement or similar later that week.

LincolnHawk

https://ironlifemag.com/why-strength-comes-before-size/

nosh1tsherlock

LincolnHawk wrote: »

https://ironlifemag.com/why-strength-comes-before-size/

The very fact I would wager Chris Evans , Chris Helmsworth and Henry Cavil cant Deadlift 500lbs but yet look in fantastic shape proves this article is bull****

Brian?

nosh1tsherlock wrote: »

The very fact I would wager Chris Evans , Chris Helmsworth and Henry Cavil cant Deadlift 500lbs but yet look in fantastic shape proves this article is bull****

Can't or don't?

Powerhouse

Brian? wrote: »

Can't or don't?

Not sure the distinction really matters to the point he was making. I would go so far as to say that the people who look to be in the best shape in my gym are conspicuous by their absence from the heavy weights area. I acknowledge that there is bound to be a certain crossover in strength exercises but I would be surprised if their performance in the ‘big 3’ was brilliant since they don’t do those lifts.

Dtp1979

Powerhouse wrote: »

Not sure the distinction really matters to the point he was making. I would go so far as to say that the people who look to be in the best shape in my gym are conspicuous by their absence from the heavy weights area. I acknowledge that there is bound to be a certain crossover in strength exercises but I would be surprised if their performance in the ‘big 3’ was brilliant since they don’t do those lifts.

They have their own big 3

1. Smith machine squat
2. Half rep bench
3. Above the knee rack pulls and slam it so hard hoping to make as much noise as they can and bend the bar

Alf Veedersane

Powerhouse wrote: »

Not sure the distinction really matters to the point he was making. I would go so far as to say that the people who look to be in the best shape in my gym are conspicuous by their absence from the heavy weights area. I acknowledge that there is bound to be a certain crossover in strength exercises but I would be surprised if their performance in the ‘big 3’ was brilliant since they don’t do those lifts.

The main reason they might have a weak S/B/D is precisely because they don't train them. I'd venture they would have quite good numbers if they actually trained for that purpose and developed the neural efficiency.

But that's not really either here nor there since the OP isn't interested in the strength element...just which is the more important of weight lifted or muscular fatigue.

Brian?

Powerhouse wrote: »

Not sure the distinction really matters to the point he was making. I would go so far as to say that the people who look to be in the best shape in my gym are conspicuous by their absence from the heavy weights area. I acknowledge that there is bound to be a certain crossover in strength exercises but I would be surprised if their performance in the ‘big 3’ was brilliant since they don’t do those lifts.

The distinction is very important. I'm sure the guys mentioned would very quickly be able to DL 220kg, if they trained it. You don't look like that without being strong as feck. Which is the point of the article, it isn't bull****.

There are far too many people training with body builder splits when they are weak.

Powerhouse

Brian? wrote: »

The distinction is very important. I'm sure the guys mentioned would very quickly be able to DL 220kg, if they trained it.

But that's what makes the distinction irrelevant isn't it? I'd probably be a much better table-tennis player if I practised it but I don't. If they trained the DL of course they would improve too, but the point being made is based on the assumption that they don't but are in good shape anyway.

Powerhouse

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

The main reason they might have a weak S/B/D is precisely because they don't train them. I'd venture they would have quite good numbers if they actually trained for that purpose and developed the neural efficiency.

Of course. That's self-evident. It's very difficult to have a huge squat without training it, in the same way that it's hard to be good at any activity without practising.

But the poster to whom I replied did not suggest they could not, in a hypothetical world, become decent weight-lifters but that are in good shape without heaving big weights around.

Mellor

nosh1tsherlock wrote: »

The very fact I would wager Chris Evans , Chris Helmsworth and Henry Cavil cant Deadlift 500lbs but yet look in fantastic shape proves this article is bull****

Chris Hemsworth is close to 100kg. I'd be surprised if he couldn't pull 225kg+.

Nevertheless, the article doesn't say you can't look good without pulling 500lbs, it says if you are aren't at that level then doth bother trying to specialise in hypertrophy. Which isn't remotely the same.

Brian?

Powerhouse wrote: »

But that's what makes the distinction irrelevant isn't it? I'd probably be a much better table-tennis player if I practised it but I don't. If they trained the DL of course they would improve too, but the point being made is based on the assumption that they don't but are in good shape anyway.

You’re completely missing the point. If you’re weak you won’t get a good physique. So stop faffing around with high rep bodybuilding splits and get strong.

The greatest bodybuilders of all time were immensely strong.

The 500lb deadlift is a little arbitrary, I’ll admit. But that’s Rippetoe. He know well that it’s in relation to body weight. I’d say anyone with an interest in having a great physique should prioritise a 2xbw DL and Squat and a body weight bench.

Mellor

Brian? wrote: »

... a 2xbw DL and Squat and a body weight bench.

Neither is a particularly big task tbh.

letsgo2018

Forgive my ignorance if I'm wrong but I can't see how squating and deadlifting would contribute to the v taper . I see alot of guys in gym lifting some impressive numbers with those 2 exercises and fair play if your a strength athlete but they take away from the v taper . Deadlifts and squats thicken the waist and make the butt bigger. Not a look I'm going for . Now I'm not saying these exercises should be removed from a body building routine but there needs to be balance. Shoulders upper chest and back are where the focus needs to be at

Dtp1979

letsgo2018 wrote: »

Shoulders upper chest and back are where the focus needs to be at

Just don’t forget to take your protein shake within 15mins or it’ll have been a pointless workout.

letsgo2018

Dtp1979 wrote: »

Just don’t forget to take your protein shake within 15mins or it’ll have been a pointless workout.

Lol

Mellor

letsgo2018 wrote: »

Forgive my ignorance if I'm wrong but I can't see how squating and deadlifting would contribute to the v taper . I see alot of guys in gym lifting some impressive numbers with those 2 exercises and fair play if your a strength athlete but they take away from the v taper . Deadlifts and squats thicken the waist and make the butt bigger. Not a look I'm going for . Now I'm not saying these exercises should be removed from a body building routine but there needs to be balance. Shoulders upper chest and back are where the focus needs to be at

Nobody had mentioned V-taper in the thread. The goal was to build muscle.
Who would have the exact physique you are after.

Brian?

Mellor wrote: »

Neither is a particularly big task tbh.

Nope. But a lot of people don't get there

Brian?

letsgo2018 wrote: »

Forgive my ignorance if I'm wrong but I can't see how squating and deadlifting would contribute to the v taper . I see alot of guys in gym lifting some impressive numbers with those 2 exercises and fair play if your a strength athlete but they take away from the v taper . Deadlifts and squats thicken the waist and make the butt bigger. Not a look I'm going for . Now I'm not saying these exercises should be removed from a body building routine but there needs to be balance. Shoulders upper chest and back are where the focus needs to be at

You need to be strong to build a good back, shoulders and chest. I'm not sure what you mean by "upper chest".

The focus should be on balance when it comes to aesthetics anyway. Google Drank Zane. Probably my favourite bodybuilder ever, he looked like a Greek statue. He deadlifted and squatted on his way to that physique. As did Arnold, Ronnie and Doris Yates. All the real greats did.

Brian?

Mellor wrote: »

Nobody had mentioned V-taper in the thread. The goal was to build muscle.
Who would have the exact physique you are after.

https://goo.gl/images/44Q97P

Mellor

Brian? wrote: »

https://goo.gl/images/44Q97P

I was thinking more like ...

Powerhouse

Brian? wrote: »

You’re completely missing the point.

If you’re weak you won’t get a good physique.

I'm not sure who's missing the point here. At no stage did I say anything to the contrary of "If you’re weak you won’t get a good physique".

I merely made the observation that in my gym those with the best physiques are almost never seen in the heavy weight-lifting area. That's just a simple fact from my observations. I never suggested they were weak/strong/in-between. Presumably anyone who lifts dumbells becomes relatively strong so saying that bodybuilders are strong is saying nothing really.

Killgore Trout

Surely if one wants a v-taper they're gonna want ab definition? Are abs and oblique exercises not going to contribute to thickness? Arguably more then squats and deadlifts?

I have yet to meet anyone that has complained that their waist has gotten too thick, or their bum too big, from doing too many squats or deadlifts.

Brian?

Powerhouse wrote: »

I'm not sure who's missing the point here. At no stage did I say anything to the contrary of "If you’re weak you won’t get a good physique".

I merely made the observation that in my gym those with the best physiques are almost never seen in the heavy weight-lifting area. That's just a simple fact from my observations. I never suggested they were weak/strong/in-between. Presumably anyone who lifts dumbells becomes relatively strong so saying that bodybuilders are strong is saying nothing really.

How about this, post a picture of what you consider a good physique so we have a frame of reference.

Dtp1979

Brian? wrote: »

How about this, post a picture of what you consider a good physique so we have a frame of reference.

Damn, I’m having trouble uploading a selfie sorry

Alf Veedersane

Dtp1979 wrote: »

Damn, I’m having trouble uploading a selfie sorry

Who's with you in the selfie?

Powerhouse

Brian? wrote: »

How about this, post a picture of what you consider a good physique so we have a frame of reference.

Ah here, this, in the context of my life and interest in debating this topic, is a crazy suggestion. I just made a passing observation about my observations and amplified the point a couple of times. Beyond that I don't really care about it to be honest.

Brian?

Powerhouse wrote: »

Ah here, this, in the context of my life and interest in debating this topic, is a crazy suggestion. I just made a passing observation about my observations and amplified the point a couple of times. Beyond that I don't really care about it to be honest.

Fair enough. I apologise for the “crazy suggestion”, it was sheer insanity.

Alf Veedersane

A simple 'nohomo' would make it ok