Realistic alternatives to suckler farming

Mac Taylor

Let’s assume given the recent teagasc report and the general lack of money that for the vast majority the suckler cow is dead.

What are the alternatives for those who don’t want to dairy, can’t dairy etc etc.

1. Rear the dairy by product
2. Plant the land
3. Walk away and leave it to nature
4. Snail farming
5. Rear native species and turn it into one big tourist attraction.
6. Sheep

What do ye think?

Bullocks

Mac Taylor wrote: »

Let’s assume given the recent teagasc report and the general lack of money that for the vast majority the suckler cow is dead.

What are the alternatives for those who don’t want to dairy, can’t dairy etc etc.

1. Rear the dairy by product
2. Plant the land
3. Walk away and leave it to nature
4. Snail farming
5. Rear native species and turn it into one big tourist attraction.
6. Sheep

What do ye think?

I like the thinking of native species / nature /tourist or enviromental farming . No more than the suckler cow it would need a bit of subsidising though so we would want to be lobbying for them really

Say my name

Bullocks wrote: »

I like the thinking of native species / nature /tourist or enviromental farming . No more than the suckler cow it would need a bit of subsidising though so we would want to be lobbying for them really

Depends on what is meant by native species.
Around here if land was rewilded it would be gorse bush, furze and rush.

The future is subsidised carbon sequestration and storage from carbon taxes. Forget about subsidized food production. That's old hat.
The politicians are making very favourable noises in that direction particularly the EU MEP's.

Edit: (To link to the opening post). There's many people dairy farming that often don't enjoy it all the time. But it's a job like any other and you may just lump it if you want an income.

Farmer

Mac Taylor wrote: »

3. Walk away and leave it to nature

A more realistic alternative is probably

Draw the subs with minimum stocking rate and a topper. Live a life in-between

Not the way we want to farm but it looks better than suckling

Limestone Cowboy

Mac Taylor wrote: »

Let’s assume given the recent teagasc report and the general lack of money that for the vast majority the suckler cow is dead.

What are the alternatives for those who don’t want to dairy, can’t dairy etc etc.

1. Rear the dairy by product
2. Plant the land
3. Walk away and leave it to nature
4. Snail farming
5. Rear native species and turn it into one big tourist attraction.
6. Sheep

What do ye think?

Mine wouldn't be the usual scenario but the suckler are all that really fit here. Cows are the only thing really able to hack the winterage. Really fragmented farm but I can winter them a lot cheaper than most. If I cut back to 30 cows and sold everything as weanlings I'd say 50 bales of silage and 8-10 ton of meal would cover me for the winter and I'd have as much out of it as I do now trying to push things to the limit all the time. Still unlikely to happen though :rolleyes:

Simmental.

Say my name wrote: »

The future is subsidised carbon sequestration and storage from carbon taxes. Forget about subsidized food production. That's old hat.
The politicians are making very favourable noises in that direction particularly the EU MEP's.

It makes little sense to pay european farmers to become less intensive and start sequestering carbon and then import beef from south american countries that burn 200,000 acres of rainforest every day for farming. Politicians like the idea because it looks like they are taking action against climate change in the eyes of the public

The EU like to say how they have improved the environment in Europe while ignoring the fact that the polluting manufacturing industries just moved to China.

Say my name

Simmental. wrote: »

It makes little sense to pay european farmers to become less intensive and start sequestering carbon and then import beef from south american countries that burn 200,000 acres of rainforest every day for farming. Politicians like the idea because it looks like they are taking action against climate change in the eyes of the public

The EU like to say how they have improved the environment in Europe while ignoring the fact that the polluting manufacturing industries just moved to China.

That's the old chestnut of why should we do that if they don't do that too.

It has to start somewhere though.

On the global front the Paris Agreement was supposed to be taking care of that. Obviously some countries take it more seriously than others and poor oul polluting China seemingly have really taken to implementing it with bells on more so from that they went too far down the pollution road that they've now become environmental angels or are trying to be for they're own sakes.

On our own EU front being intensive food producers and intensive carbon sequestrationers (not sure that's a word?) are not mutally exclusive.

patsy_mccabe

Surely contract rearing of Dairy stock would be a runner for some?

https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/contract-rearing-it-puts-certainty-around-your-bills-each-month/

Water John

Some thing not mentioned and I alluded to it in another Thread yesterday.
The dairy cow numbers will stabilise soon. This will produce as a byproduct about a million cross bred calves Fr/Lim or AA. Reverting to the system we had. Most of those calves going West to be reared then East to be finished.
What would the figures look like?
Calf €200+
Selling weanling or yearling depending on keeping for the 1st winter.
€7/900
East finished off grass or 2nd winter.
Factory price ???

Is there skin for anyone in this scenario?

tanko

€700-€900 for dairy cross weanlings/yearlings????
Have you been in a mart lately?

Water John

You put the bones on it. I'm just setting out a process.
Note I did put the West buyer either selling a weanling or yearling.
It give a total of 3 owners. Just so that nonsense threshold of 4 moves isn't exceeded.

Birdnuts

Simmental. wrote: »

It makes little sense to pay european farmers to become less intensive and start sequestering carbon and then import beef from south american countries that burn 200,000 acres of rainforest every day for farming. Politicians like the idea because it looks like they are taking action against climate change in the eyes of the public

The EU like to say how they have improved the environment in Europe while ignoring the fact that the polluting manufacturing industries just moved to China.

I think it can be done - realistically the best land in the country will stay in dairy or tillage while beef production can become more "extensive" on more marginal land in such a way that will provide benefits via conservation grazing, protection and enhancement of wetlands that will help with flooding issues, water quality, fisheries, erosion etc. Beef production will in this country still be robust and any changes will hardly register at an EU level anyway, hopefully it will put some manners on the factories too in terms of farm gate prices.

PS: In terms of dubious "green measures" I would have a much bigger problem with current forestry policies which concentrate on the block planting of alien spruce monocultures that do immense damage to everything from water quality, peatlands( and their carbon storage abilities), HNV habitats etc. Not to mention the displacement of traditional upland sheep/cattle grazing

_Brian

tanko wrote: »

€700-€900 for dairy cross weanlings/yearlings????
Have you been in a mart lately?

They’re figures from an average year, this year isn’t anything close.

Problem is they’re the first cattle to loose price.

We sold some there, I’d say average loss of €40 a head, it’s sickening, but no different to what lads selling weanlings from sucklers are loosing, yet we don’t have the risk and hassle of carrying cows, calving them or a bull.

kollegeknight

Limestone Cowboy wrote: »

Mine wouldn't be the usual scenario but the suckler are all that really fit here. Cows are the only thing really able to hack the winterage. Really fragmented farm but I can winter them a lot cheaper than most. If I cut back to 30 cows and sold everything as weanlings I'd say 50 bales of silage and 8-10 ton of meal would cover me for the winter and I'd have as much out of it as I do now trying to push things to the limit all the time. Still unlikely to happen though :rolleyes:

That’s a great set up. Our place is so wet, we have to be prepared for at least a 6month winter- 180bales for 13cows, the bull and a few weanlings.

The plan for me is to re-evaluate around the time the hen harrier payment is gone(I’m supposed to have farm in my name by then) , maybe plant a bit and move the maps to match the hen harrier payments if it comes back and cut animal numbers down to match.

I’ve serious work commitments at moment, along with 2 children under 4 and a mother who is hard work, I find myself in an unsustainable set up.

patsy_mccabe

Put yourself and family first before any bit of land. Life is too short for regrets.

kevthegaff

Dairy calves should be 50 - 100 euro less, I see from mart prices compared to home

SuperTortoise

The alternative that is being pushed will be the west and NW to be used as a carbon offset, landowners will be payed to set aside their land.

Certainly around me there are no dairy men, so that rules out contract rearing, sucklers is farming at a loss, we have'nt land good enough or enough of it for tillage, store cattle is the route most people around here are going down and with brexit the arse could drop out of that market as well.

_Brian

kollegeknight wrote: »

That’s a great set up. Our place is so wet, we have to be prepared for at least a 6month winter- 180bales for 13cows, the bull and a few weanlings.

The plan for me is to re-evaluate around the time the hen harrier payment is gone(I’m supposed to have farm in my name by then) , maybe plant a bit and move the maps to match the hen harrier payments if it comes back and cut animal numbers down to match.

I’ve serious work commitments at moment, along with 2 children under 4 and a mother who is hard work, I find myself in an unsustainable set up.

Guy said to me last week that the problem with sucklers is your spending every minute from they leave the shed until they go back in trying to have enough feed for when they are in the shed. Wintering cows for 5-6 months is shockingly expensive.

bogman_bass

In the west it makes more sense to finish. You have long winters so they’re going to be in the shed anyways so you might as well be pushing them

patsy_mccabe

bogman_bass wrote: »

In the west it makes more sense to finish. You have long winters so they’re going to be in the shed anyways so you might as well be pushing them

Poor silage and more expensive meal make that too expensive.

White Clover

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Poor silage and more expensive meal make that too expensive.

Why is the silage poor? We aren't exactly farming in the golden vale here but the quality of the silage has improved drastically over the last 10 years due to change in practises. Daily live weight gains in winter have gone from practically 0 to 0.8kg/hd per day on dairy x stock.
We don't have dedicated silage ground, cut surpluses as they appear from early May onwards. I'd be horrified if I was cutting stuff yielding over 6 bales per acre. Majority of it is under 5.

Farmer

White Clover wrote: »

Why is the silage poor?.....

Poor ground, wet ground, too much rainfall, not able to cut at optimum time, often unable to cut at all so silage has to be bought in, hilly or rocky ground used for pasture so less flexibility around cutting surpluses, ground in Glas THM, etc.

tractorporn

White Clover wrote:

Why is the silage poor?.

In a word, rushes!

wrangler

kollegeknight wrote: »

That’s a great set up. Our place is so wet, we have to be prepared for at least a 6month winter- 180bales for 13cows, the bull and a few weanlings.

The plan for me is to re-evaluate around the time the hen harrier payment is gone(I’m supposed to have farm in my name by then) , maybe plant a bit and move the maps to match the hen harrier payments if it comes back and cut animal numbers down to match.

I’ve serious work commitments at moment, along with 2 children under 4 and a mother who is hard work, I find myself in an unsustainable set up.

I think if you have a good job which if you're busy must be going well, you shouldn't be wasting time and energy at a farm

Water John

Yes actually think the calf price should be nearer €100 than €200. Don't want dairy guys offloading 5 day old calves though.
It will vary in the west, some farms should aim to winter very little stock, others offload the following spring, depends on land quality, housing and labour.
Over East mostly for finishing.

These cross cattle are Fr/Lim or AA. Forget the Jersey cross things. Iv'e no problem with a dairy farmer having a jersey herd. He knows what should happen with his bull calves. The same as the male milking goats and the male laying hens, boom.
The jersey cross Fr cow is an abomination for this system. They cannot expect a market for their male calves.

TooOldBoots

Simmental. wrote: »

It makes little sense to pay european farmers to become less intensive and start sequestering carbon and then import beef from south american countries that burn 200,000 acres of rainforest every day for farming. Politicians like the idea because it looks like they are taking action against climate change in the eyes of the public

The EU like to say how they have improved the environment in Europe while ignoring the fact that the polluting manufacturing industries just moved to China.

And most of the lumber and deforestation companies in south America are European owned!

TooOldBoots

Any of those advocating low numbers and draw the grants might as well go Organic while they are at it. The reality is most farmers in the west of Ireland are only a bag or two of fertilizer away from being organic anyway

kollegeknight

wrangler wrote: »

I think if you have a good job which if you're busy must be going well, you shouldn't be wasting time and energy at a farm

I don’t take any money from the farm- all of it goes to my mother.

My job and my salary supports my family.

K.G.

Anybody who thinks that beef prices are going to improve is dillusional.with the processing structure now in place.as for alternatives it all comes down to personal circumstances.dairy best but you must be bprepared to work.trees grand except for asset value.contract rearing good if you find the right partner.beef still an option if you are a good at finding value in the mart but you must farm according to the market.always buy c heap and in there every week.for most golf and letting the land is the best option with the skills and time available to most people.

Water John

Well KG that's pretty damning of most of us.
'for most golf and letting the land is the best option with the skills and time available to most people.' Quote.

How the view from your high perch?

Tar.Aldarion

Mac Taylor wrote: »

Let’s assume given the recent teagasc report and the general lack of money that for the vast majority the suckler cow is dead.

What are the alternatives for those who don’t want to dairy, can’t dairy etc etc.

1. Rear the dairy by product
2. Plant the land
3. Walk away and leave it to nature
4. Snail farming
5. Rear native species and turn it into one big tourist attraction.
6. Sheep

What do ye think?

I was watching this documentary last night about a UK farmer that had been battling with his conscience over running his farm (https://vimeo.com/293352305). He mentioned he had somebody in to assess the farm to make sure he had a viable plan (he switched to vegetables), is there anything like that available to you here, maybe worth checking around with others? Maybe somebody helping with something more personal to somebodies farm in particular and what they can do with.

Panch18

Water John wrote: »

Well KG that's pretty damning of most of us.
'for most golf and letting the land is the best option with the skills and time available to most people.' Quote.

How the view from your high perch?

Nothing high perch about it

Just the reality of farming nowadays - and fellas need to wake up to it

tractorporn

TooOldBoots wrote:

Any of those advocating low numbers and draw the grants might as well go Organic while they are at it. The reality is most farmers in the west of Ireland are only a bag or two of fertilizer away from being organic anyway

There is two issues with organic in this country. First there is no payment scheme open and hasn't been open since 2015. There is no will from this Goverment to support an organic sector.

Secondly since the large influx of organic producers, when we joined in 2015 the arse has fallen out of the beef game as there is a large oversupply now of organic beef and the two processors haven't found markets for this oversupply as of yet.

bogman_bass

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Poor silage and more expensive meal make that too expensive.

High meal rates mean you need less silage and silage quality is largely down to cutting date

TooOldBoots

tractorporn wrote: »

There is two issues with organic in this country. First there is no payment scheme open and hasn't been open since 2015. There is no will from this Goverment to support an organic sector.

Secondly since the large influx of organic producers, when we joined in 2015 the arse has fallen out of the beef game as there is a large oversupply now of organic beef and the two processors haven't found markets for this oversupply as of yet.

Yes but it could save the Suckler herd here. If we moved to 100% organic beef production this would produce a more saleable product, unique in Europe. It would mean less animals per farm also so supplies of beef sucklers here would tighten up.
Its a viable option for the suckler farmer.

At the end of the day the beef from the Irish suckler is currently seen in the UK and Europe as only being on par or below. We need to far exceed them

tractorporn

TooOldBoots wrote:

Yes but it could save the Suckler herd here. If we moved to 100% organic beef production this would produce a more saleable product, unique in Europe. It would mean less animals per farm also so supplies of beef sucklers here would tighten up. Its a viable option for the suckler farmer.

TooOldBoots wrote:

At the end of the day the beef from the Irish suckler is currently seen in the UK and Europe as only being on par or below. We need to far exceed them

I couldn't agree more with you but we would need considerable by in from all the processors and currently they couldn't give a monkeys about organics. There's not as much money to be made off the farmers back in organics.

20silkcut

kollegeknight wrote: »

I don’t take any money from the farm- all of it goes to my mother.

My job and my salary supports my family.

Do you not get paid for work done on the farm??

kollegeknight

20silkcut wrote: »

Do you not get paid for work done on the farm??

No- if there was money for that- I’d be reinvesting it to make life easier.

K.G.

Water John wrote: »

Well KG that's pretty damning of most of us.
'for most golf and letting the land is the best option with the skills and time available to most people.' Quote.

How the view from your high perch?[/quote
Nothing high perched about it .could i run a market gardening business-no.tillage-no well not at the level of skill needed to get on.sheep-f##k no.some tourism type activity(develope a golf course,adventure centre,etc)-no.and anyway most suckers are part time and.dont have time with a job to develope some other enterpirse on the land.

Siamsa Sessions

Agroforestry could be an option as the terms/conditions changed at the start of this year. It’s the same rate (200 Euro per acre) and duration now (15 years of premiums) as the “regular” forestry.

The density is 400 trees per hectare so approx. 10m between rows of trees and 8m between trees in the row.

And carry on farming as is

Cattlepen

Siamsa Sessions wrote: »

Agroforestry could be an option as the terms/conditions changed at the start of this year. It’s the same rate (200 Euro per acre) and duration now (15 years of premiums) as the “regular” forestry.

The density is 400 trees per hectare so approx. 10m between rows of trees and 8m between trees in the row.

And carry on farming as is

Now i’m Open to correction as I could well be wrong but I think the agroforestry grant are only 5 years. Like I said, I could be wrong

Mooooo

I guess it depends on ones own situation, if working off farm fulltime and the farm is taking from that income is it a case of do you want to continue as something you pay for, due to the enjoyment, family involvement or whatever assuming you are as efficient with the farm as possible so be it. But if farming fulltime or depending on it as an income for the household losses can only be sustained so long. Then changes have to be made what are the options then? As KG said its facts have to be looked at, and at the moment factories are using the fact that sucker farmers or a share of them are willing to continue at their own expense

Dinzee Conlee

Cattlepen wrote: »

Now i’m Open to correction as I could well be wrong but I think the agroforestry grant are only 5 years. Like I said, I could be wrong

You are correct - it is only 5 years...

https://www.teagasc.ie/crops/forestry/grants/establishment-grants/agroforestry/

Siamsa Sessions

I thought it was 5 years too but I spoke to a guy from Green Belt 2 weeks ago and he said it changed just this year. No one was going for it so the Govt changed. I was as surprised as anyone.

But check yourself to be sure. I’m not trying to big it up or anything - just sharing what I was told.

We’re not definitely going ahead but 15 vs 5 years is a big positive

Birdnuts

tractorporn wrote: »

There is two issues with organic in this country. First there is no payment scheme open and hasn't been open since 2015. There is no will from this Goverment to support an organic sector.

Secondly since the large influx of organic producers, when we joined in 2015 the arse has fallen out of the beef game as there is a large oversupply now of organic beef and the two processors haven't found markets for this oversupply as of yet.

I think beef production can become alot more"extensive" and sustaineable without being strickly "organic" - along the lines of what I mentioned in my previous post on this thread. It basically means less inputs and lower outputs which would be no harm at all given the current oversupply here and across most of the EU.This is the kind of thing Bord Bia should be pushing instead of trying to fool the consumer with baseless "green" guff. Though as you say the current government have zero interest in putting farming on a sustainable path here:(

_Brian

Siamsa Sessions wrote: »

I thought it was 5 years too but I spoke to a guy from Green Belt 2 weeks ago and he said it changed just this year. No one was going for it so the Govt changed. I was as surprised as anyone.

But check yourself to be sure. I’m not trying to big it up or anything - just sharing what I was told.

We’re not definitely going ahead but 15 vs 5 years is a big positive

I don't think 15years is enough..
I was looking there at the NAtive Woodland Establishment scheme, it would be really interesting, but after year 15 where is the income ??

Mac Taylor

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

I was watching this documentary last night about a UK farmer that had been battling with his conscience over running his farm (https://vimeo.com/293352305). He mentioned he had somebody in to assess the farm to make sure he had a viable plan (he switched to vegetables), is there anything like that available to you here, maybe worth checking around with others? Maybe somebody helping with something more personal to somebodies farm in particular and what they can do with.

Hi tar, thanks for the reply. unfortunately the land type here is only really suitable for growing grass, it is limestone based so growing stones is the other alternative.:D

I’m fortunate I’m not dependent on farming but my youngest is mad into it and I would love to find something thAt could offer him an opportunity if he wanted to. I have no issue rearing livestock and would like to think we look after our animals well.

Unfortunately. 50 acres would not sustain much of a lifestyle, so just trying to understand what others are thinking

Base price

Birdnuts wrote: »

I think beef production can become alot more"extensive" and sustaineable without being strickly "organic" - along the lines of what I mentioned in my previous post on this thread. It basically means less inputs and lower outputs which would be no harm at all given the current oversupply here and across most of the EU.This is the kind of thing Bord Bia should be pushing instead of trying to fool the consumer with baseless "green" guff. Though as you say the current government have zero interest in putting farming on a sustainable path here:(

It could work but only with some sort of extensification grant that is linked to an result based true environmental scheme iykwim. Otherwise every tom, dick and harry will find the loopholes and exploit them.

older by the day

Mac Taylor wrote: »

Hi tar, thanks for the reply. unfortunately the land type here is only really suitable for growing grass, it is limestone based so growing stones is the other alternative.:D

I’m fortunate I’m not dependent on farming but my youngest is mad into it and I would love to find something thAt could offer him an opportunity if he wanted to. I have no issue rearing livestock and would like to think we look after our animals well.

Unfortunately. 50 acres would not sustain much of a lifestyle, so just trying to understand what others are thinking

Well if it was myself I would push your youngest to do a trade or third level education of some sort. Explain that the farm will be still there in a few years. He/she will thank you later

orchard farm

High nature value farming

Cattlepen

_Brian wrote: »

I don't think 15years is enough..
I was looking there at the NAtive Woodland Establishment scheme, it would be really interesting, but after year 15 where is the income ??

Just to clarify, and again I’m open to correction, I think it’s only 5 years for agroforestry but the thing is sheep can be grazed in it for the first 7 years and then smaller cattle introduced after that. Depending on what way it’s layed out meadow can be harvested off it also. A tillage guy in Britain did it with apple trees and layed it out to suit his machinery. It was very successful for him as the apples became more profitable than his tillage