SUSI encouraging fraud?

Peter Denham

Hi,

I'm currently in the middle of a tangle with SUSI. I have lived in Dublin for 3 years and worked in North county Dublin for the first 2.

I was claiming social welfare for the duration of 2017 as I was casually employed and I was renting a room off a home owner ( this wasn't registered as a homeowner is not obligated to register a tenancy if they live there too and the rent is under a certain amount.) I had a lease and my rent was bills included.

SusI are refusing me a grant because I can't provide a utility for this period or rent allowance receipt.

They don't accept: social welfare correspondence, bank statements, revenue correspondence, insurance details. The list goes on, I have sent them everything I have. It has to be a utility bill. I supplied a year worth of bank statements highlighting all rent payments and also 90 percent of all transactions were made in Dublin yet they insist I must have been living in Sligo.

I have several emails stating that if I were to apply as living at my home address and dependant on my parents then they will proceed with the application. I've been told this by senior staff too.

This would be a complete lie and as my social welfare payments were made with the belief that I lived in Dublin then I can't imagine the social being too impressed that I was claiming social welfare while being fully dependant on my parents and also living at a different address than what I supplied them.

Also if I they take my parents income into account I'm not entitled to anything so **** them. I'm in my 30s and haven't taken money from my parents in a decade. Anyone else been encouraged to make false claims by these clowns?

VonZan

Peter Denham wrote: »

Hi,

I'm currently in the middle of a tangle with SUSI. I have lived in Dublin for 3 years and worked in North county Dublin for the first 2.

I was claiming social welfare for the duration of 2017 as I was casually employed and I was renting a room off a home owner ( this wasn't registered as a homeowner is not obligated to register a tenancy if they live there too and the rent is under a certain amount.) I had a lease and my rent was bills included.

SusI are refusing me a grant because I can't provide a utility for this period or rent allowance receipt.

They don't accept: social welfare correspondence, bank statements, revenue correspondence, insurance details. The list goes on, I have sent them everything I have. It has to be a utility bill. I supplied a year worth of bank statements highlighting all rent payments and also 90 percent of all transactions were made in Dublin yet they insist I must have been living in Sligo.

I have several emails stating that if I were to apply as living at my home address and dependant on my parents then they will proceed with the application. I've been told this by senior staff too.

This would be a complete lie and as my social welfare payments were made with the belief that I lived in Dublin then I can't imagine the social being too impressed that I was claiming social welfare while being fully dependant on my parents and also living at a different address than what I supplied them.

Also if I they take my parents income into account I'm not entitled to anything so **** them. I'm in my 30s and haven't taken money from my parents in a decade. Anyone else been encouraged to make false claims by these clowns?

The grant is for independent mature adults and as you're living with your parents you're not entitled. However, as you have evidence in written form that they will give you a grant can't you just submit that or contact the person that offered you the grant?

Peter Denham

VonZan wrote: »

The grant is for independent mature adults and as you're living with your parents you're not entitled. However, as you have evidence in written form that they will give you a grant can't you just submit that or contact the person that offered you the grant?

I'm not living with my parents.

SUSI won't give me a grant because I can't provide a utility bill.

Instead they want me to reapply as living with my parents, which would be fraudulent in my opinion.

Turtwig

Contact the property owner or licensor and ask them if they'd be willing to write a sworn declaration stating that you were a licensee of a room in the property for the specific period.

Peter Denham

Turtwig wrote: »

Contact the property owner or licensor and ask them if they'd be willing to write a sworn declaration stating that you were a licencee of a room in the property for the specific period.

They've already confirmed they won't accept it. My ex landlord even offered to provide their bank statements so that they would sych with mine and show a year's worth of rent transactions. I've exhausted every avenue, I was Garda Vetted for work and they've confirmed they won't accept a letter ( if I could get one) from the Gards that I was at that address. It's driving me insane. I provided a letter that my mother has the Living Alone Allowance at our home address. Nothing.

They won't budge, has to be a utility bill.

Purple Mountain

1850 715 815

Turtwig

Peter Denham wrote: »

They've already confirmed they won't accept it. My ex landlord even offered to provide their bank statements so that they would sych with mine and show a year's worth of rent transactions. I've exhausted every avenue, I was Garda Vetted for work and they've confirmed they won't accept a letter ( if I could get one) from the Gards that I was at that address. It's driving me insane. I provided a letter that my mother has the Living Alone Allowance at our home address. Nothing.

They won't budge, has to be a utility bill.

That is utterly bizarre. Perhaps, consider informing a TD office of your situation. Explain in details all action you took, show them your documents and all correspondence received. Also, did they tell you over the phone they wouldn't accept the alternatives your proposed or was it in official writing?

VonZan

Peter Denham wrote: »

I'm not living with my parents.

SUSI won't give me a grant because I can't provide a utility bill.

Instead they want me to reapply as living with my parents, which would be fraudulent in my opinion.

Can you get your landlord to get your name added to a utility bill? You could request a statement and get it pretty quickly.

rawn

Ask your landlord to add your name to a utility bill. My husband had to do that several years ago, it was straightforward, it was with UPC and it was done fairly quickly IIRC

Just to add - my husband had to reapply as a dependent on his parents, despite not having lived at home in 12 years. The refused him as independent because we couldn't prove we were paying rent as we paid in cash. We even had an affidavit done up but they didn't care, they are absolute in their box ticking.

Turtwig

VonZan wrote: »

Can you get your landlord to get your name added to a utility bill? You could request a statement and get it pretty quickly.

rawn wrote: »

Ask your landlord to add your name to a utility bill. My husband had to do that several years ago, it was straightforward, it was with UPC and it was done fairly quickly IIRC

Worth a shot. Only issue here is that they've left the residence, so a current utility bill wouldn't cut it and utility companies can be reluctant about altering a bill statement retrospectively.

Twenty Grand

VonZan wrote: »

Can you get your landlord to get your name added to a utility bill? You could request a statement and get it pretty quickly.

Wouldn't matter now. It would have to be dated before January of this year I believe.

F*ck it OP, I'd get on to some PDF editor put your name on your landlords bill.

There's plenty of people that live in rented accommodation but would never get a utility bill.
4 lads in our place and one has the ESB and Eir bill in his name.

If the other three were asked for proof of address they'd have nothing.

Peter Denham

Turtwig wrote: »

That is utterly bizarre. Perhaps, consider informing a TD office of your situation. Explain in details all action you took, show them your documents and all correspondence received. Also, did they tell you over the phone they wouldn't accept the alternatives your proposed or was it in official writing?

It's mind blowing. There's actually another person on boards with the exact same problem. Given the nature of renting in Dublin it's surely not that uncommon to not have a bill. The sick thing is I moved house late October 2017 and got broadband in my name. The first bill is dated Nov 1st. They said it can't be later than Oct 2017. I sent a bank statement showing I paid the deposit and rent on October 20th and explained it took a while to get it installed. No dice. They've accepted that I've lived independently for 2018.

They've refused everything by post but in desperation I called and mentioned the landlord bank statements and Garda thing, they confirmed on phone that they won't accept that. They are insisting I should reapply as having lived in Sligo in 2017, I'm worried that would land me in trouble with DSP, I find it odd that they are encouraging this. Any logical human being can look at the documents I've sent and conclude that I must have been living in Dublin. All my bank activity suggests this.

I've emailed several TDs. Hopefully hear something soon.

Peter Denham

rawn wrote: »

Ask your landlord to add your name to a utility bill. My husband had to do that several years ago, it was straightforward, it was with UPC and it was done fairly quickly IIRC

Just to add - my husband had to reapply as a dependent on his parents, despite not having lived at home in 12 years. The refused him as independent because we couldn't prove we were paying rent as we paid in cash. We even had an affidavit done up but they didn't care, they are absolute in their box ticking.

It's 2017 that's the issue. I have a bill for 2018 thankfully. They are insane, I had a total income of 17k in 2017, I'm well below the income limit for the highest grant.

The scenario they are implying is that I was commuting from sligo to work in Dublin, to claim social in Dublin, to spend most of my money in Dublin, and collecting all of my letters at a random address in Dublin.

I've started college but my days are numbered really, they want at least 50 percent of the student reg fee by October 31st which I pathetically can't afford.

Twenty Grand

Peter Denham wrote: »

I've started college but my days are numbered really, they want at least 50 percent of the student reg fee by October 31st which I pathetically can't afford.

Don't worry about that. The worst they'll do it withold your results at Christmas.

Just don't fail your exams and get results directly from your lecturers.

JustJoe7240

Super long shot, but any chance your landlord registered your tenancy with the RTB?

Turtwig

JustJoe7240 wrote: »

Super long shot, but any chance your landlord registered your tenancy with the RTB?

Can't. It's not a landlord and tenancy arrangement. It's only a licensor and licensee and the RTB don't get involved with those.

Mrs OBumble

Visit a TD clinic on person. Feck email, too easily ignored.

Also try your student union for more ideas.

JustJoe7240

Turtwig wrote: »

Can't. It's not a landlord and tenancy arrangement. It's only a licensor and licensee and the RTB don't get involved with those.

My bad, I missed that in the op.

Peter Denham

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Visit a TD clinic on person. Feck email, too easily ignored.

Also try your student union for more ideas.

I will definitely be exploring that avenue.

I'd love to call into SUSI but as far as I'm aware there is no way to meet with them?

The people taking calls, god help them, don't know their arse from their elbow. One guy told me to fill out a declaration of documents not provided form and literally said "you'll be grand with that." Then the next guy told me that that form isn't even relevant to my situation. Another told me get a letter from the social welfare stating I claimed during that period is the way to go. I sent that off thinking it was job done only the get the letter asking for a utility bill.

All the while, with all the contradictory information, the weeks are ticking by.

Spook_ie

If you were renting a room in 2017 would the person you were renting from be a de facto rental agency? and therefore a letter from them would suffice.

Peter Denham

A TD contacted me today and pursued the matter. The status unmediately changed from "awaiting documents" to "queued for assessment."

I haven't been approved for a grant, but it's a step.

Happy it's moving but also frustrated that they are able to chang their stance on whim based on who they are talking to.

dennyire

This happened last year to someone i know.
He applied for grant and was refused for the same reason as OP
He then appealed to SUSI and lost.
He then appealed to Student Grant Appeals Board, who are independent of
SUSI and Bingo...got his grant.
Details of how to make the appeals (both) are on bottom of SUSI homepage

Best of luck with it OP

ShaShaBear

Peter Denham wrote: »

A TD contacted me today and pursued the matter. The status unmediately changed from "awaiting documents" to "queued for assessment."

I haven't been approved for a grant, but it's a step.

Happy it's moving but also frustrated that they are able to chang their stance on whim based on who they are talking to.

Hopefully you get sorted but I totally get you! I had the same runaround with them a few years back because I hadn't disclosed proof of my father's earnings the previous year. Apparently the death certificate I sent them saying he bit the dust 3 years previous wasn't enough proof :rolleyes:
I went the TD route as well, and it was sorted in no time at all!

Peter Denham

A big fat no was the response from SUSI. I have nothing left to give them.

Purple Mountain

Are you going to lie down and accept defeat?
Ring Joe Duffy this evening and tell them you want a slot Monday.
Phone PrimeTime team and see if they will entertain this story.
If there's the anamoly that you have outlined and you were told to lie, then that needs exposure!

Peter Denham

Purple Mountain wrote: »

Are you going to lie down and accept defeat?
Ring Joe Duffy this evening and tell them you want a slot Monday.
Phone PrimeTime team and see if they will entertain this story.
If there's the anamoly that you have outlined and you were told to lie, then that needs exposure!

I had another stumbling block today. In 2017 I got part time work and went on casual dockets. As I was still claiming Jobseekers I thought this meant I was eligible for the Special Rate. Turns out I would have had to be fully unemployed to get special rate despite my income only being €21,000. So disappointing. Would have been better off not working.

Anyway I'm just repeatedly whining at this stage. I'll appeal everything and failing that I'll but my focus into finding alternative work outside of this field.

Peter Denham

4 months after I first applied I finally got this sorted. If anyone is in a similar boat in the future feel free to contact me, I've learned an awful lot about this, and have some solutions.

AndrewJRenko

It would be great if you could post details of solutions here for future reference.

SCOOP 64

Peter Denham wrote: »

4 months after I first applied I finally got this sorted. If anyone is in a similar boat in the future feel free to contact me, I've learned an awful lot about this, and have some solutions.

So you did you get the special rate, reading your above post being under €23,500 in 2017 and still not being entitled to it but someone working full time being under €23.500 will get it, seems confusing to me.

Peter Denham

SCOOP 64 wrote: »

So you did you get the special rate, reading your above post being under €23,500 in 2017 and still not being entitled to it but someone working full time being under €23.500 will get it, seems confusing to me.

The criteria for the special rate is that you have to be under €23,500 and in receipt of some form of welfare off of their list. I was working part time and getting casual jobseekers and had assumed I met that criteria, but they said I didn't claim enough social welfare. Stupid, given that I was under the income limit regardless.

What I've learned is that the assessors will refuse you straight away if you don't tick all the boxes, it's black and white, no exceptions. Your best bet is the appeals officer who for some reason will be more flexible and logical.

The other thing is a change in circumstances, if your hours have decreased in the current year (2018) or if you're getting paid less than 2017 or you've moved to a different job they will assess you on 2018 instead. But you have to let them know, it may work in your favour in certain situations.

Talk to a TD, they have access to different reps than the public do (confirmed by my TD) You're wasting your time speaking to them yourself unless it's something straight forward. They are generally fairly clueless and the amount of incorrect information they gave me nearly drove me mad, it's also time consuming being sent on wild goose chases.

With the address thing I had loads of hassle. They provide a list of documents and if you fail to provide any of them you're refused. But the appeals officer will accept alternative evidence, get whatever you can. I provided - full year of bank statements highlighting rent payments, letter from ex landlord, social welfare correspondence, car insurance, a letter from the social that I was means tested at the address. Anything you have with your name on it.

If you're stuck on the documents thing they'll keep sending you a letter requesting the documents that you don't have. Fill out the "documents not provided form" and this will bypass this stage and you'll go on to be assessed. If you don't fill out this form the process will not move forward. Bear in mind that you'll likely be refused anyway, but appeals is where you want to be anyway.

Throughout this they'll tell you reapply as dependant on your parents, contrary to what has been said here this is an admission that you live with your parents at your parents address. You have to live with your parents to do this, it's absolutely ridiculous and SUSI have confirmed this is the case. So if you're claiming social welfare in Dublin and your parents are living in Donegal then this is bad advice on their part. Though I think they are aware of the Catch 22 situation they have created and are deliberately overlooking this if you reapply.

The issue is they haven't considered any informal renting situations when outlining their rules, and given the current rental climate this situation is arising more and more. It's my understanding that appeals officers have been instructed to take this into account and I have been told the list is non-exhaustive. Why they always refuse pre appeal I don't know. Possibly to try put you off appealing so as to save money.

I noticed my online status had changed to appeal successful, I called and the lady said appeal successful just means that appeal process has successfully concluded. She said I was still refused. I said that confusing language and she agreed. Two days later I received a letter stating I was successful in my appeal and had been awarded the special rate. I called them and they don't know why the woman gave the previous information to me. Such is the cluster**** that is SUSI.

I know my post is all over the place, if anyone has questions let me know.

Edit: Another peculiar thing is that if you switch jobs and are assessed on the current year, they don't include your previous jobs income in their assessment. For example you work in job A from Jan to July, then job B after that and they will only consider income from job B. No idea why, maybe someone else knows.