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Russia has just lost a spy plane and 15 crew members are dead ( Syria)

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Comments

  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 409 ✭✭Sassygirl1999


    Its all a bit too misconstrued to blame the Israelis
    Blame the Syrians


  • Registered Users Posts: 632 ✭✭✭Rhineshark


    Oooh..sh*t.

    This is pretty much exactly what ...well, one side has been worried about happening for months. Israel drags in the US and things get a bit less proxy.

    It probably wasn't Israel but if this is the line Putin's taking, it gets messy.

    So, which side will Trump go for?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 409 ✭✭Sassygirl1999


    Rhineshark wrote: »
    Oooh..sh*t.

    This is pretty much exactly what ...well, one side has been worried about happening for months. Israel drags in the US and things get a bit less proxy.

    It probably wasn't Israel but if this is the line Putin's taking, it gets messy.

    So, which side will Trump go for?

    Trump is hardly going to go for the Syrians side , he has no hotels or businesses there


  • Registered Users Posts: 632 ✭✭✭Rhineshark


    Trump is hardly going to go for the Syrians side , he has no hotels or businesses there

    Never mind the Syrians, Russia is blaming (correctly or not) Israel. That is the choice Trump is faced with. I'm sure he'd love to just drop some bombs on Syria and call it sorted.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,573 ✭✭✭Infini


    Could be also Putin bluffing to the home audience that its all the Israelis fault and not chalk it up to a friendly fire incident.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 409 ✭✭Sassygirl1999


    Infini wrote: »
    Could be also Putin bluffing to the home audience that its all the Israelis fault and not chalk it up to a friendly fire incident.

    the Israelis and French were both bombing Syria at the time, the biggest winner in this is Iran because now the Russians will start shooting at Israel warplanes that were previously given leeway, this will give the Iranians and Hezbollah more cover to move arms south , the plot is thickening nicely


  • Registered Users Posts: 229 ✭✭skepticalme


    The French did not fire, Israel tried to make it look like they did. Israeli submarines fired under cover of the French ship.and the Israeli jets took cover and set up the Russian plane that was shot down. Agreement on Idlib the day before, Israel does not want peace breaking out. Snakes.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    The French did not fire, Israel tried to make it look like they did. Israeli submarines fired under cover of the French ship.and the Israeli jets took cover and set up the Russian plane that was shot down. Agreement on Idlib the day before, Israel does not want peace breaking out. Snakes.
    Seems the most likely explanation. Those Israelis are very clever and devious.
    Reminds me of the theory that a Ukrainian SU-25 jet was using MH17 for cover during a raid.

    Israel admitted it was helping jihadis in Syria, even though that endangered the Druze population inside and around Israel's border.

    Anything that keeps arabs fighting each other is seen as being good for Israel. Which, in fairness, is quite true.

    Putin will let this go. Just like he did when Turkey shot down a Russian jet. He always sees the bigger picture. Keeps his eye on the end game. That's how he wins.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,116 ✭✭✭archer22


    Of course its Israel's fault...the Syrians wouldn't have been launching SAM missiles if they hadn't been attacking them.

    Also Putin shares some responsibility for not blasting the Zios out of the sky with his S400s or at least supplying this advanced weapon to Syria instead of the antique S200 he has given them.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 409 ✭✭Sassygirl1999


    I don't agree with anti semitism but I get what you are saying


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  • Registered Users Posts: 452 ✭✭moceri


    I don't agree with anti semitism but I get what you are saying

    Antisemitism is not the same as Antizionism and the two terms are not interchangeable.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    archer22 wrote: »
    Also Putin shares some responsibility for not blasting the Zios out of the sky with his S400s or at least supplying this advanced weapon to Syria instead of the antique S200 he has given them.
    The Syrians have just shot down one of his planes. He is not going to put them in charge of his most powerful weapons systems ;)
    I think in this case, the Russians would have shot down the Israelis if they had come anywhere near Latakia air base. But they are always careful to avoid the Russian base, preferring to launch sneak attacks against the more southerly Syrian positions, and always using an unexpected and circuitous route; never flying in directly from Israel.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,116 ✭✭✭archer22


    recedite wrote: »
    The Syrians have just shot down one of his planes. He is not going to put them in charge of his most powerful weapons systems ;)
    I think in this case, the Russians would have shot down the Israelis if they had come anywhere near Latakia air base. But they are always careful to avoid the Russian base, preferring to launch sneak attacks against the more southerly Syrian positions, and always using an unexpected and circuitous route; never flying in directly from Israel.

    They shot down the plane because they don't have advanced weapons and radar.
    Anyhow the likely hood is that this is exactly what Israel planned to happen...especially if they also launched missiles from near a French warship.

    Its nothing new to them..remember the USS Liberty?

    Anyhow who the hell wants to be allies with them...they will happily shoot their own friends in the back if they think they can gain something from it!.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,893 ✭✭✭Cheerful Spring


    Russia is playing nice with Israel because if they gave Syria S-400 their jets be falling out of the sky. Syria is still using S-200 it's older but still can do a lot of damage. Russia will not go to war over this, because a war with Israel involves the United States. Russia seems to have called off the Idlib offensive, for now, they seem to have worked out some closed backdoor deal with Turkey. Iran and Syria seem to have accepted this proposal least for now.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,182 ✭✭✭demfad


    Happened overnight the Israelis are being blamed by the Russians for the incident. The Syria air defence shot it down by mistake. The Russians claim the Israelis used the plane as cover to attack Syrian and Iranian targets. It's a serious incident and the Russian are very unhappy and they claim they now have a right to respond.

    http://www.foxnews.com/world/2018/09/18/russia-says-military-jet-lost-over-mediterranean.html

    I would disregard any information coming from the Russian side. The story used will be based on how it can benefit/avoid embarrassing Russia most.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    There seems to be some doubt about whether the Auvergne actually launched missiles, but it also seems they were involved in some way, maybe acting as spotters. And launching something or other, just to create added confusion for the Syrians ad Russians.
    The French formerly had a lot of influence in Lebanon and Syria. They are annoyed at gradually losing it.
    Good to see that Trump stayed out of this deliberate and dangerous provocation, anyway.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,192 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    Hang on, Moceri. Are you seriously postulating that France is deliberately trying to get NATO into a shooting war with Russia?


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,053 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Mod: Blog post dump deleted.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    So the famed Syrian air defence systems finally shoot an aircraft down ,

    But they could be only hit one of their russian allies pretty comical stuff ,
    Did they ever produce any proof of shooting down the cruise missiles British , American and French forces deployed against chemical weapons facilities not so long ago.


    But wait did I actually read someone blamed Israeli submarines?

    lol


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,458 ✭✭✭✭gandalf


    Putin would want to be very careful. The Israelis are top of the list of all the entities in the ME you don't threaten. Russia will have to watch its mouth on this one.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,430 ✭✭✭weisses


    Gatling wrote: »
    So the famed Syrian air defence systems finally shoot an aircraft down ,

    But they could be only hit one of their russian allies pretty comical stuff ,
    Did they ever produce any proof of shooting down the cruise missiles British , American and French forces deployed against chemical weapons facilities not so long ago.


    But wait did I actually read someone blamed Israeli submarines?

    lol

    Im surprised they didn't blame an Ukrainian su25

    Syrians did put a lot of ordnance into the air ..They didn't know who they were shooting at


  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    weisses wrote: »
    Im surprised they didn't blame an Ukrainian su25

    Syrians did put a lot of ordnance into the air ..They didn't know who they were shooting at

    Actually didn't russia come out with an other MH 17 theory this week too ,
    But on a serious not rebels have shotdown the majority of assads airforce maybe the Assad decided he needed to get on on the score sheet before it's too late ,

    It shows the shambles the Assad regime are still in ,they will need Iranian and russians fighting for another decade if assad actually lasts that long ,pull out Iranian and russians assad forces will be rolled over again


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,573 ✭✭✭Infini


    gandalf wrote: »
    Putin would want to be very careful. The Israelis are top of the list of all the entities in the ME you don't threaten. Russia will have to watch its mouth on this one.

    They're also reportedly a Nuclear State as well though I believe it's never been officially confirmed as one. Domestic BS aside it's not something anyone would wanna go too far on beyond some condemnations as it would get ugly otherwise.


  • Registered Users Posts: 20,558 ✭✭✭✭dreamers75


    I think the weapon Syria used is more the issue, the plane was hit with something Syria doesnt have.

    The Russians have given/sold the BUKs which as we all know can hit something at 38,000ft the max for the IL20.

    So did the russians hit their own jet with their own missiles or were Syrians using them? A flak cannon aint hitting anything that high.

    Assuming it was flying as a recon plane at the highest it could fly at.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,248 ✭✭✭✭BoJack Horseman


    dreamers75 wrote: »
    the plane was hit with something Syria doesnt have

    No, the Russian MoD confirmed the shoot-down was by an SA-5, which Syria has in quantity


  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    No, the Russian MoD confirmed the shoot-down was by an SA-5, which Syria has in quantity

    Wonder if they were literally shooting into the dark ,they can't claim Israeli jets hid behind the IL 20 and tried to hit them going through the spy plane .


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,248 ✭✭✭✭BoJack Horseman


    Gatling wrote: »
    Wonder if they were literally shooting into the dark ,they can't claim Israeli jets hid behind the IL 20 and tried to hit them going through the spy plane .


    Correct on both counts.

    Syria does (almost) fire blindly.
    The SA-5 is guided to target by a ground based radar, it has no active radar seeker of its own.
    Apparently Syrian ground radar is mediocre at best.
    That is how the Israeli F-16 got tagged earlier in the year.
    It faced a volley of something like 20 SA-5s and these missiles have massive 200kg warheads.... so this blanket of explosive shrapnel caused the Israeli Viper to crash land.

    You are also correct on the 2nd point.
    the Israeli F-16 was already back in Israeli airspace when the Syrians returned fire,

    It seems they didn't make the effort to properly identify Ivan's patrol plane before firing.

    Incompetence coupled with mediocre tech


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,027 ✭✭✭Elmer Blooker


    Incompetence coupled with mediocre tech
    And there you have it! Have I not been saying for a few years now that the Russian "threat" and Russian "aggression" is a complete myth invented and exaggerated by the media and am I not correct? Of course I was labelled a 'Putinbot' for stating what we now know is fact.
    Of course it's a old trick, for example in the 1980s when the Soviet Union was dying on its feet in Afghanistan Reagan convinced the world that they were a threat to the world - the result is always the same which is an increase in military spending.

    Putin will need to be careful now as he showing weakness and indecisiveness at home which will suit the Liberal Democrats opposition led by ultra-nationalist Zhirinovsky. Few of you will have heard of these Liberal Democrats as the western media denies their existence in order to build up some guy called Navalny as the "only real opposition" to Putin in Russia but believe me they are a large opposition party and the world can do without them getting into power! There is nothing liberal or democratic about them!


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,248 ✭✭✭✭BoJack Horseman


    And there you have it! Have I not been saying for a few years now that the Russian "threat" and Russian "aggression" is a complete myth invented and exaggerated by the media and am I not correct

    I stated that the 50 year old SA-5 mediocre.

    You then put 2+2 and came up with the square root of -1000

    But whatever it takes to feel validated, I support you.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,237 ✭✭✭mcmoustache


    And there you have it! Have I not been saying for a few years now that the Russian "threat" and Russian "aggression" is a complete myth invented and exaggerated by the media and am I not correct?


    You were saying it as Russia invaded Ukraine. You were wrong then and you're wrong now.


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