Flooded apartment question...

humberklog

5 weeks ago the apartment above mine leaked water into my apartment.

Luckily I was in. I was able to contain the water flooding down from the ceiling into buckets and I alerted the management company (MC) who in turn alerted the housing association (HA) that rents the above flat out. The tenants weren't home but access was gained and the water turned off after about 2 hours of flooding.
The problem was a fault with their washing machine.
We are private residents and own our apartment. The apartment that leaked into ours is owned by a HA and is rented out. The building is managed by a property MC.
There was no contents damage in our apartment. The damage caused in our apartment is water damage on the walls and ceiling. In areas of the ceiling there is cracks and bubbling.

In the first week the MC sent a decorator out to assess the damage and to put a price into them. The decorator reckoned areas of the ceiling would have to come down to be made right.
The MC weren't happy with the price and then sent the problem back to the HA.

The HA then sent one of their assessors who I met last week (4weeks on from incident). The rep said they *might* be willing to send their maintenance staff in to give the apartment a coat of paint but wouldn't be willing to repair the ceiling or gaurantee their work.

We weren't happy with that as a solution so arranged our own loss assessor who I'll meet in the next week or so as I'm away on holidays.

Here's the problem- we appear to be being passed between the housing association and the management company (neither are taking responsibility in any meaningful way) and we don't know who the buck should stop with.

Has anyone any experience or knowledge of this scenario?
We're hoping the loss assessor will be able to guide us somewhat in this however with so much fannying about by the HA and MC we'd like to be a bit clearer and sure footed.

Whose insurance is liable and would it be necessary to involve a solicitor at this point?

nuac

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Open for general discussion subject to forum rule on legal advice

seamus

Unless you can prove negligence at source, you are liable for fire and flood damage to your property.

In this case, damage to walls and ceilings, and the liability to put it right is on the owner of the block - i.e. the management company - and their block insurance policy.

Any argument between the HA and OMC is none of your concern. The OMC must fix your apartment and if they need to chase the HA, that's up to them.

humberklog

Yeah that's kinda what we've been lead to believe although there's been much more conversation between us and the HA and very little with the MC. We're hoping that our loss assessor contacting them will get them moving as opposed to having to get a solicitor.


The washing machine the leaked had only been put in a few weeks beforehand by the HA's maintenance workers. The water inlet pipe wasn't attached correctly.

whippet

If you have to go down the route of claiming on the block insurance policy be aware that more than likely you will have to pay any excess on the policy.

My mate had a similar issue last year where his apartment had significant damage after a leak in the bathroom above him. The excess was in the region of €5k that he had to fork out

Mr. Incognito

I'd hire a solicitor.

That's their job. I suspect the wheels will get moving a lot quicker.

seamus

whippet wrote: »

If you have to go down the route of claiming on the block insurance policy be aware that more than likely you will have to pay any excess on the policy.

My mate had a similar issue last year where his apartment had significant damage after a leak in the bathroom above him. The excess was in the region of €5k that he had to fork out

Dubious practice. Unless expressed in the leasehold agreement, the excess is a problem for the OMC and not the individual unit owner.

Mrs OBumble

humberklog wrote: »

The washing machine the leaked had only been put in a few weeks beforehand by the HA's maintenance workers. The water inlet pipe wasn't attached correctly.

It's unusual for them to install whiteware. Is it sheltered housing or suchlike?

humberklog

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

It's unusual for them to install whiteware. Is it sheltered housing or suchlike?

No, professionals and nice tenants. The HA spread out their lettings from hard up cases to professionals.

The day it happened I was chatting to the tenants where they mentioned about new washing machine and who installed it.

humberklog

whippet wrote: »

If you have to go down the route of claiming on the block insurance policy be aware that more than likely you will have to pay any excess on the policy.

My mate had a similar issue last year where his apartment had significant damage after a leak in the bathroom above him. The excess was in the region of €5k that he had to fork out

Now this is the worry. We keep hearing 5k excess from the HA but our thinking is is that that would be the MC's problem and not ours?

Eggs For Dinner

humberklog wrote: »

Now this is the worry. We keep hearing 5k excess from the HA but our thinking is is that that would be the MC's problem and not ours?

It is. The Apartment Block policy covers the entire structure and the policy excess applies to the incident. By saying the excess applies to you is like saying only the top floor occupants are affected if the roof blows off in a storm

GerardKeating

humberklog wrote: »

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

It's unusual for them to install whiteware.  Is it sheltered housing or suchlike?

No, professionals and nice tenants. The HA spread out their lettings from hard up cases to professionals.

The day it happened I was chatting to the tenants where they mentioned about new washing machine and who installed it.

A washing machine leaking the same day it was installed screams "negligence" by the installer, if you want to point your solicitor down that route.

whippet

Eggs For Dinner wrote: »

It is. The Apartment Block policy covers the entire structure and the policy excess applies to the incident. By saying the excess applies to you is like saying only the top floor occupants are affected if the roof blows off in a storm

My mate went through independent legal advise ... and the excess was his to cover.

As an owner of the MC he was in effect claiming off his own policy. There are policies that you can take out to insure against the excess apparently !

humberklog

GerardKeating wrote: »

A washing machine leaking the same day it was installed screams "negligence" by the installer, if you want to point your solicitor down that route.

Not the same day but a week or so after installation.

humberklog

whippet wrote: »

My mate went through independent legal advise ... and the excess was his to cover.

As an owner of the MC he was in effect claiming off his own policy. There are policies that you can take out to insure against the excess apparently !

Well I'll be phoning the MC in the morning to have that clarified although the person originally dealing with our case is out of office due to bereavement.

When I first moved in about 7 years ago a pipe burst in our apartment. It was in the ceiling and feeding the kitchen hot tap from the gas boiler. This was all looked after via the block insurance and the job was a lot bigger. New floors etc.
All was paid for through insurance and we didn't need to cover the excess then.

Eggs For Dinner

whippet wrote:

As an owner of the MC he was in effect claiming off his own policy. There are policies that you can take out to insure against the excess apparently !

That's partly correct. He was claiming off his own policy, but only as a member of a group who jointly had their communal property damaged and all benefited by having their asset returned to it's former standard

dont bother

humberklog wrote: »

5 weeks ago the apartment above mine leaked water into my apartment.

Luckily I was in. I was able to contain the water flooding down from the ceiling into buckets and I alerted the management company (MC) who in turn alerted the housing association (HA) that rents the above flat out. The tenants weren't home but access was gained and the water turned off after about 2 hours of flooding.
The problem was a fault with their washing machine.
We are private residents and own our apartment. The apartment that leaked into ours is owned by a HA and is rented out. The building is managed by a property MC.
There was no contents damage in our apartment. The damage caused in our apartment is water damage on the walls and ceiling. In areas of the ceiling there is cracks and bubbling.

In the first week the MC sent a decorator out to assess the damage and to put a price into them. The decorator reckoned areas of the ceiling would have to come down to be made right.
The MC weren't happy with the price and then sent the problem back to the HA.

The HA then sent one of their assessors who I met last week (4weeks on from incident). The rep said they *might* be willing to send their maintenance staff in to give the apartment a coat of paint but wouldn't be willing to repair the ceiling or gaurantee their work.

We weren't happy with that as a solution so arranged our own loss assessor who I'll meet in the next week or so as I'm away on holidays.

Here's the problem- we appear to be being passed between the housing association and the management company (neither are taking responsibility in any meaningful way) and we don't know who the buck should stop with.

Has anyone any experience or knowledge of this scenario?
We're hoping the loss assessor will be able to guide us somewhat in this however with so much fannying about by the HA and MC we'd like to be a bit clearer and sure footed.

Whose insurance is liable and would it be necessary to involve a solicitor at this point?

this exact situation happened to me over two years ago and im still waiting on the court date. the only difference was that it was a private landlord above and not a HA.

you should just bite the bullet and pay for the repairs yourself. you can take a case to the courts then after to reclaim your money.

The management company wouldnt help out in my situation at ALL. they are useless. Management companies IME are a total scam (but that's another topic).

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This forum is for Legal Discussion. If you must rant pls go elsewhere

The insurer of the other crowd above did the same to me - they sent their assessor to have a look, but would not take on the responsibility.

In the long run, my own insurance wouldnt pay out either. so i was left with nowhere to turn but to bring the matter to court. I'm still waiting to find out the date, as the landlord who owes me the 3K in repairs is holding out.

In the end, sadly, it's because there are too many greedy horrible people in this country and you have to fix it yourself and then sue the HA.

just my advice, that's what happened in my situation.

if it doesnt work out, then i know where yer man lives anyway - out in a big massive mansion near the sea. - what makes me really sick, is that he gets the guts of 3K a month in rent from his tenants, and would have had me paid back within a month of the incident, but he was greedy and horrible, so just left me there with no lights, no heat (as the electrics were damaged it was dangerous to turn on the power)... so it was a disaster. i had to go about a month without light, heat and with soggy squeaking floors.

my ceilings, walls, floors and electrics were all damaged.

count your lucky stars that its' only the lick of paint in your case really, because you wont get money off anyone for this.

humberklog

Well we'll see. I've an appointment pencilled in for their and our assessors to meet up in the coming weeks.

4ensic15

Eggs For Dinner wrote: »

That's partly correct. He was claiming off his own policy, but only as a member of a group who jointly had their communal property damaged and all benefited by having their asset returned to it's former standard

The management company is a distinct legal entity and is distinct from its officers and shareholders. It is not communal property and an apartment owner does not claim off himself unless the policy notes his interest in the subject matter of the policy. If he claims as a third party there is no excess.

humberklog

Just an update on this- We had a meeting in the apartment between an assessor we've appointed and an assessor working on behalf of the MC's insurance company.

They have had their chat and our assessor has pointed out the scope of works that's going to be submitted into the MC. Whether they agree all of it will be known in the next couple of weeks.

On the issue of the excess amount: there is an excess of 5k on the building policy however there is a "sinking fund" of 10k. Which according to our assessor means we'll not have to pay any excess ourselves.

So we've an idea of the scope of works being applied for on our behalf and will find out what the agreed payment will be in a few weeks.

After that I'm not sure what the procedure is but I'm sure our assessor will walk us through it.

L1011

Sinking fund of 10k - how small is this complex? Are there lifts?

humberklog

L1011 wrote: »

Sinking fund of 10k - how small is this complex? Are there lifts?

Big enough.That management company's probably over about 150 units in this development. Lifts, underground parking etc. I think the sinking fund is 10k per apartment, maybe?

STB.

humberklog wrote: »

Big enough.That management company's probably over about 150 units in this development. Lifts, underground parking etc. I think the sinking fund is 10k per apartment, maybe?

What is 10k per apartment ?

The sinking fund is not for this purpose.

Sinking fund is a savings scheme whereby apartment owners pay their service charges for the year and sometimes a percentage is set aside for a sinking fund. The sinking fund is for lifts, fire safety etc. The reality is that there is so much dodging of service charges by rogue owners that a lot of this sinking fund money does not exist.

Back on point, a claim needs to be lodged against the cause.

humberklog

I'm really not up on how insurance works so only going on what I think we've been told by our assessor.

When assessing the other day we inquired whether we were liable for the 5k excess. He reckons we're not because there's a sinking fund.
We had an issue like this 7 year ago and everything (flooring/redecorating) was taken care of with little fuss.

On the itemised yearly management fees (of which we've always been paid up) it shows €100 going towards the sinking fund.

We'll be a bit clearer in the next few weeks I suppose.

L1011

100 a year would mean there certainly isn't 10k per apartment in the sinking fund. I would be concerned that your OMC is badly managed and should there be serious uninsured works required you'd be hit for a exceptional payment.

humberklog

L1011 wrote: »

100 a year would mean there certainly isn't 10k per apartment in the sinking fund. I would be concerned that your OMC is badly managed and should there be serious uninsured works required you'd be hit for a exceptional payment.

Think I'll just concentrate on trying to get my apartment right first. That's enough stress for me at the moment.