Irish Deer Commission's plans for you

BryanL

Have a listen to episode 19.  https://tommysoutdoors.com/
If you've hair to pull out give it a tug.
Listening to the podcast they're looking to introduce a fee for a Deer Hunting Licence. Bring in a quota on deer and a Tag system like in America as well as compulsory training courses and then some more courses after that. They'll look to make the UK DSC 1 course compulsory and then the DSC 2
Basically they're looking to create an asset or cash cows out of Irish Deer.
Seems like they see the Irish system as being a complete failure, despite an absence of any real problems with our system? They're drawing inspiration from places like Scotland where no locals can afford to shoot deer.

solarwinds

Again i ask, just who exactly are they representing, it sure as sh1t is not or ever will it be me.
No sane thinking person I know would want to be represented by an organisation who thinks all this training should be compulsary, and this attitude of "sure look it its going to happen at some stage" well if thats what he thinks now where is his fighting for his members interests to try and oppose the inevetible bleeding of every hunters pockets.
Alas the same old crap to benefit the few at the expense of the rest of us.
That interview was a fair love in alright.

gunny123

solarwinds wrote: »

Again i ask, just who exactly are they representing,

Themselves, a tiny clique of three or four lead by the creep, who looks like the guy off the chef brown sauce bottle. No interest in hunting or conservation, the problem of poaching or how to deal with it.

Just spout the right buzz words, and tell the minister what he wants to hear, like they did when they screwed over the gun dealers.

Its all about selling crappy courses and making a quick buck. They will not be getting any money out of me.

Grizzly 45

Think you might find that they have been handed their arses on plates about these ideas over the last 12 to 18 months,by Irish stalkers?So much so that even the minister has gone quiet on this issue??

Vegeta

So this effectively craps all over the following then.....ffs same old sh1te again

So I like this approach for a number of reasons:
No proposed restrictions on existing law abiding shooters/hunters
Doesn't crap all over other peoples sport such as fox hunting at night
No barriers for new people looking to take up any sport
Building working relationships with the people who enforce legislation

I think if any group can keep the 4 points above in mind with any proposals or goals then they will do well.

cavan shooter

I smell the SCOVIS.......

Sports Coalition Of Vested Interests....greasy sticky fingers all over this.

Grizzly 45

So THIS is where this is coming from again.:mad:

http://idmf.ie/irishdeermanagementforum/wp-content/uploads/bsk-pdf-manager/IDMF_Meeting_10,_18th_October_2017_11.pdf


A discussion followed regarding E- licencing. Gerry Leckey (DAHG) stated that funding will
eventually become available for an E-licencing system, under normal government
procurement procedures. In 2017 4,000 licences were issued by the start of the season, and
by Mid October this number was 4,800.
Members stated that the issue was not with the issuing of licencing but with the collection of
data. The example of the Slovenian Deer Licencing system was cited, and this system was not
expensive to establish.The Finnish system was also cited, and has been in use for over 10
years and is similar to the Slovenian system and that other suitable examples exist.

I'll soon find out how cheap and effective this system actually is in the next few days.:)

Members also stated that the feedback from hunters regarding 2017 licence issues was very
positive and the Chair complimented NPWS on their work in streamlining the 2017 process
and preparing a system. She also stated that IDMF should be involved in the scoping and
evaluation process for a new system

Congrats to 75% of the edjits out there who filled in this form and sent it back! You gave this bunch enough rope to hang us with.As you now all "agreed" to their proposals without knowing,or thinking about this.:mad::mad::mad:
NEVER give beuracrats info willingly,it will be used against you.


The Chair also stated that it would be helpful if the Members focussed on issues within the
control of the Forum and joint initiatives between Forum members. Members needed to
recognise that recommendations to Departments often need time to be accepted and
implemented.

ACTION POINT – The Forum will request from DAHG/NPWS what is contained in the
Departments proposals for E- Licencing

Looks like they will be going this route,and guess which mugs will be paying "a small administrative fee" for this??:rolleyes:

Seriously,people we need to start getting our **** together if we want to keep hunting for free in the future.

solarwinds

Seems like they have been very effective in getting their feet under the table before their public launch.
It baffles me that these depts will engage with a group who at the time had no members to represent and didnt officially exist. That is some fair lobbying before these public statements come out.
Who else have they been talking to and about what.
It smacks of the latest SI re dealers security that no one knew about until it was all done and dusted.

Heavy handed

Just goes to show how many fools are in the sport to even give a group or clowns like these there support in the first place. There’s nothing wrong with the system in place at the moment. Credit where credit is due with the npws staff this year. No messing about and had licenses back very fast this year around.

ayagerard

Again i ask, just who exactly are they representing, it sure as sh1t is not or ever will it be me.
or me or any one else out side of the circle, we are no benifit to them ,as we wont finance there pay role, Themselves a tiny clique of three or four lead by the creep, who looks like the guy off the chef brown sauce bottle.
he is there too mastermind himself from a distance in the long grass watching his prophet-see unfold they all have been around the block before and all they are doing is changing the name over the door ,but they keep hitting the same nail with a different hammer and eventual if the nail wont bend it will snap ,

Just spout the right buzz words, and tell the minister what he wants to hear, like they did when they screwed over the gun dealers.
well what they told the minister and what they were telling the dealers cant even have been on the same book not to mind the same page and i fear the same for us hunters with them spouting **** in their own favor, the minister will be quite happy to say yea asked for this your-selves what do yea want me to do ,

Its all about selling crappy courses and making a quick buck. They will not be getting any money out of me.
i think the courses are only a smoke screen to the bigger picture here while they are creating revenue to feed the monster to create new members with a a feel good factor while camouflaging all the harm these people have done to shooting in the past

Sports Coalition Of Vested Interests....greasy sticky fingers all over this
they are all there every one of them 20-30 people dictating the direction of shooting in this country some have members and some have only directors they might change the name over the door but it is still the same stink in side

Seems like they have been very effective in getting their feet under the table before their public launch.
well they knew what was coming down the road seance back in 2015 when all the knights sat around the round table well some off them knew anyway the rest were absent asleep or simply weren't told like us ,

Cass

Finally got around to listening to the entire interview/podcast.

For a change i don't think its as bad as the posts here lead you think. We are all so used to being bent over the table by those with vested interests and seeking financial reward or to obtain a monopoly as per the IDF's attempt at cornering the training market via a push to make the HCAP mandatory, however from listening to the podcast it doesn't seem to be the case.

However as always i'll wait and see and stand to be corrected. My reasoning for this belief is simple. I'll go through a few points from the opening post and how i interpreted the comments form the podcast.

BryanL wrote: »

Listening to the podcast they're looking to introduce a fee for a Deer Hunting Licence.

Nothing new there and when he says that most Deer hunters would support this i believe him because anytime the topic comes up here the majority do in fact support it with the caveat that all monies raised go back into the sport and not simply into the exchequer to be lost to other, non relevant, expenditures.

Bring in a quota on deer and a Tag system like in America

Again discussed here ad nauseam and each time no one is against the tagging system, their only reservations stem from an abuse of the system. However that abuse is present without a tagging system so i don't see the fault in trying it.

as well as compulsory training courses

They [IDC] are not trying to introduce compulsory courses, that ship has sailed. Courses will be introduced thanks to the efforts of the IDF, the Minister said so, and by no later than 2020. So they're not calling for mandatory courses simply saying they're coming regardless.

They'll look to make the UK DSC 1 course compulsory and then the DSC 2

The DSC1 is the same, almost, as the HCAP and with the Miister's statement that courses will be mandatory for first time licensees from 2020 on, then people have a choice to do the hcap or DSC1.

As for the DSC2 well if someone wants to go the extra step and do it, that is their prerogative, but there was no mention of it being mandatory by either the IDC in that interview or the Minister.

Basically they're looking to create an asset or cash cows out of Irish Deer.

Again that ship has sailed with the actions of the IDF/hcap. Its coming regardless so to accuse the IDC of initiating this is wrong. There is no doubt that with this becoming law that other groups will jump at the chance to run their own courses and build their organisation and funding through them.

That is not an excuse and i've made my feelings towards all this very clear in the last 18 months, but at this point trying to fight to stop mandatory courses is an exercise in futility.

Seems like they see the Irish system as being a complete failure, despite an absence of any real problems with our system?

There are a host of failures in our system due to the lack of enforcement of the current laws and the total lack of interest in working to create a better system due mostly, on the Governments behalf, to cost. Some of the major issues i find are:

1. Illegal poaching is a problem but so too is "legal" poaching.
2. Deer returns numbers are a joke as it's based on an honor system.
3. No Deer census taken, EVER.
4. Lack of funding for NPWS meaning entire counties without a Ranger.
5. Penalties for poachers are less than a slap on the wrist and the financial benefits outweigh the punishment if caught.

I listened to the podcast and was fully prepared to write a long post lambasting them for their SCOVI approach to this, but found it not to be the case. Yes they have the same ideals, but thes seem to stem from the current situation regarding mandatory courses becoming a reality shortly as opposed to seeking new, even harsher, restrictions on the sport.

As said above if this changes [their position/actions] then i'll be the first one to demand answers, but so far they have repeated what most of us have called for here, and for a practical implementation of what is coming down the line ANYWAY [mandatory courses for beginners]

I even tried to pull points from the interview, and there were some, that i would class as poor or a joke, but they're mostly petty stuff like:

• Saying all the great work the IDC has done then in the same mouthful say how they are only a new group
• The host's comments about "people running around the country" when talking about those with no experience. These types of sound bites make the news and are used against us.
• The lack of any discussion on legal poaching, census, returns, etc.
• Saying people use loopholes to get around poaching. What loopholes? It makes it seem there are no laws.

So there ya go. A possibly refreshing and different narrative from me.

SakoHunter75

https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/wild-deer-they-have-me-destroyed-they-eat-all-the-grass-and-wreck-all-my-fences/

In many parts of the country the deer population is already way out of control, bringing a whole raft of serious consequences for society. For eg, here in the SW there seems to be a ballooning epidemic of Lyme disease, with every second person or more developing symptoms.

In that context it's utter madness to be even talking about bringing in measures that would discourage people from stalking.

Grizzly 45

Cass wrote: »

Nothing new there and when he says that most Deer hunters would support this I believe him because anytime the topic comes up here the majority do in fact support it with the caveat that all monies raised go back into the sport and not simply into the Exchequer to be lost to other, non relevant, expenditures.

All I will say on this is, from the bitter experience of lobbying for legislation for a profession in Ireland...Be VERY careful for what you wish for here, you might just get it in aces and spades. As for it going back into the sport....:rolleyes:

Again discussed here ad nauseam and each time no one is against the tagging system, their only reservations stem from an abuse of the system. However, that abuse is present without a tagging system so I don't see the fault in trying it.

I am utterly against it, and for the simple reason,it will be abused BY BOTH SIDES. The Govt side in "costs and administration fees."Sure you might get a few seasons at a "reasonable" cost, that open to the definition...What's "reasonable" these days? 50,100.300 euros PA or per tag?? Remember a govt org will use the excuse they must justify their existence and profitability".IE their wages first. By the unscrupulous, as you can be double damn sure these tags will be made by the cheapest bidder from the cheapest materials...Ergo they will be forged in no time. So how does this exactly deter poaching?? It will be another money spinner for the govt bodies.,and if you are going to break the law with poaching, what's to stop you at forgery?

I really think there is a great misunderstanding in the advocates of tagging by quoting the American system. Which really has nothing in comparison to proposed use here. The US uses it in two versions.A limited tag system for exotic species IE Big Horn sheep, etc and in those cases there is a limited bag per season per state, which can be either bought by auction if you are out of state or in-state resident,or you enter in a state lottery for a tag. This has more to do with conservation than anything else of an exotic species, so hardly relevant, unless we open the season on the Kerry herd...

The second tag for hunting deer is for census numbers taken, between primitive weapons, black powder, and modern firearms. You, as a states resident are allocated on average limit of4to5 tags anyway, and anyone in your household can apply for the same amount of tags, and you can "gift" them to whomever you want. Seeing that there is no game dealing and a Federal prohibition on selling game meat in the entire USA. There is no comparison on the benefits to our usage of it in Ireland.

Also, seeing NO other EU country has a tagging system, and allows the sale of carcasses directly to the public once you have a certified game handling course and relevant facilities, if you are doing it commercially, shouldn't we follow the EU system?

Penalties? If we have judges in Clare almost commending lads coming down from Cavan to jacklight deer, and an attitude from farmers and Coilte of "Too many of dem fukers in the country anyway." A blind eye will be turned to poaching, or it will be so far down the list of LE priorities,that things will continue as before.




[QUOTE]The DSC1 is the same, almost, as the HCAP and with the Minister's statement that courses will be mandatory for first-time licensees from 2020 on, then people have a choice to do the hcap or DSC1.

As for the DSC2 well if someone wants to go the extra step and do it, that is their prerogative, but there was no mention of it being mandatory by either the IDC in that interview or the Minister[/QUOTE].

I wonder for how long, it will be before both become mandatory for everyone?That will be then just mission creep justified to cover dwindling revenue from the 4,800 +/- der hunting licenses. Same as what happened with the HCAP/Coilte. 4,800 is just too low a figure to justify a massive beuracy and keep orgs like the IDMF in salaries and pet projects going, without making it VERY expensive for the ligit deer hunter.

There are a host of failures in our system due to the lack of enforcement of the current laws and the total lack of interest in working to create a better system due mostly, on the Governments behalf, to cost. Some of the major issues I find are:

Yup.

1. Illegal poaching is a problem but so too is "legal" poaching.

2. Deer returns numbers are a joke as it's based on an honour system.

And will continue to be so ever, even with tags or gimcrack GPS kill marking. Its all based on the honesty of the shooter.

[*]No Deer census was taken, EVER.

Most important step and the Keystone to deciding any sort of policy in the future.

[*]Lack of funding for NPWS meaning entire counties without a Ranger.

Yup, and the double-edged sword.NPWS cant take outside funding and must rely as a Govt body on state funding, hence the limited effectiveness. Also going by the article in the IT and their requirements for positions of NPWS ranger, they are looking for the undoable maxim in business. Getting superior quality for little money... They want college grads to do a massive amount of work for well below the industrial wage starting off.[20/25k] And apparently more concerned about illegal turf cutting and preserving some rare kind of snail and shower curtain mould, than deer poaching.
So that begs the question...Where will this money go from these proposed lics and courses??

• Saying all the great work the IDC has done then in the same mouthful say how they are only a new group
• The host's comments about "people running around the country" when talking about those with no experience. These types of sound bites make the news and are used against us.
• The lack of any discussion on legal poaching, census, returns, etc.
• Saying people use loopholes to get around poaching. What loopholes? It makes it seem like there are no laws.

Agreed on that too.

I hate to be doing Cassandra prophecies on things like this, but so far experience has taught me that when you give bureaucrats green light to legislate, they will do it in aces and spades "in your name and for your benefit", and we have unelected reps doing the talking without consulting the majority of us outside the tent on what we want or our input. Don't be very surprised that we get slammed with something we didn't or never wanted, by 2024 here.
If these people are claiming to represent us, they had better start asking and listening to us, including the dissenters.

Grizzly 45

SakoHunter75 wrote: »

https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/wild-deer-they-have-me-destroyed-they-eat-all-the-grass-and-wreck-all-my-fences/

In many parts of the country the deer population is already way out of control, bringing a whole raft of serious consequences for society. For eg, here in the SW there seems to be a ballooning epidemic of Lyme disease, with every second person or more developing symptoms.

In that context, it's utter madness to be even talking about bringing in measures that would discourage people from stalking.

Not necessarily true either. Just because one lad in Mayo or down in Wicklow has rakes of deer on his land, doesn't mean that some lad in Clare or Tipp has the same problem? And going by this article,it seems hunting has somehow increased the deer herd density in his area?

It illustrates the two camps of thought here perfectly..The too many deer, get more hunters,and the too few deer, we need less hunters or licensing.
What we need is in fact to know what is the average population per county and in total in the 26,before anything is done either which way.

Cass

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

All I will say on this is, from the bitter experience of lobbying for legislation for a profession in Ireland...Be VERY careful for what you wish for here, you might just get it in aces and spades. As for it going back into the sport....:rolleyes:

First off i'm not wishing for anything. However other groups are lobbying for a fee and tags and as they get to have secret meetings and sit at the table where decisions are mad, and not i, i doubt my personal opinions are of much consequence.

My point was that if such a fee were introduced i wouldn't be against it simply because it's "new". Also looking back at the last rise in firearms in 2009. We expected a surge in the price of firearms licensing. In the end anyone with a shotgun a tiny increase over three years than they would pay for an old yearly one over the same time period, while those with rifles paid less than the yearly cost of the old licenses over the new three year license.

So if we were to pay say €10, €15 or even €20 per license it's a small fee, comparatively, and most wouldn't mind paying it. Also any fee however small will be hundreds of times more than what we pay now, nothing.

All with the intention of it going back into the department (NPWS). If it were a fee just to be thrown into the "pile" that is the exchequer then it's of no benefit to the sport and at this point i would oppose it.

I am utterly against it, and for the simple reason,it will be abused BY BOTH SIDES.

As opposed to the current system of NOTHING.

I'm usually a pessimist but i won't shoot something down, especially something new/never used before, before it's been tried. If it gets abused by fraud then its like poachers with no deer licenses/firearm license/land permission. If they intend to break the law nothing will stop them. However it might make a small improvement to overall population of stalkers and those working inside the law will not find it a burden.

No system will be fool proof, but something has to be tried. I'm tired of the poaching, lampin, and trespassing on my permissions and being powerless to do anything about it.

However what i'm MOST sick of is the few that shoot hundred(s) of Deer each year, make a living of it, while criticizing others for much lesser infractions.

Also, seeing NO other EU country has a tagging system,

Half the problems we have before and today are from trying to "copy and paste" a foreign system into our own. DON'T.

and allows the sale of carcasses directly to the public once you have a certified game handling course and relevant facilities, if you are doing it commercially, shouldn't we follow the EU system?

Already done here.

I wonder for how long, it will be before both become mandatory for everyone?

Who knows? However a course will be coming so as said arging against it is pissing into the wind.

As for a mandatory second course, seems pointless, futile, and with so much resistance to one course i cannot see them saying "great you passed your deer stalking test, now you have to do another before you can actually deer stalk".

Same as what happened with the HCAP/Coilte.

Not even close. That was an attempt to monopolize a market that blew up badly in their face.

And will continue to be so ever, even with tags or gimcrack GPS kill marking. Its all based on the honesty of the shooter.

Not immediately and not for as many people.

As it stands people write in a number on a piece of paper and no one can verify or prove its legitimacy. Introduce simple tagging and now the person must either create their own to circumvent it or try and sell illegally without the tag.

To circumvent the tags they must explain why they are returning more tags than was issued, or why they are selling without a tag. Closer inspection of game dealers will help curtail illegal selling however i doubt most game dealers would engage in illegal selling but start to look at butchers or other sources where deer can be sold without tags or traceability.

Those committing illegal acts and working to circumvent new security measures will continue to do so. Illegal is illegal.

So that begs the question...Where will this money go from these proposed lics and courses??

That won't be up to the NPWS, AGS, or even DoJ. So no one knows.


Agreed on that too.

I hate to be doing Cassandra prophecies on things like this, but so far experience has taught me that when you give bureaucrats green light to legislate,

Don't mistake my understanding for compliance or co-operation. My post is in response to the Podcast and not directed at the sport as a whole.

I've been around long enough to see how quickly our own can feck things up and they will continue to do so once money is involved. However the damage is done by another group, so i'll reserve judgement on this new one until i see their actions.

Don't be very surprised that we get slammed with something we didn't or never wanted, by 2024 here.

I won't.

If these people are claiming to represent us, they had better start asking and listening to us, including the dissenters.

Would make a nice change.

BryanL

Already the Irish Deer Management Forum are making plans to have funded posts paid for by the state. I'd imagine this will come from any licence fee.

Grizzly 45

Precisely...And you can be sure salaries,pensions and perks will be looked after first,all the rest later.

Grizzly 45

Cass wrote: »

My point was that if such a fee were introduced i wouldn't be against it simply because it's "new". Also looking back at the last rise in firearms in 2009. We expected a surge in the price of firearms licensing. In the end anyone with a shotgun a tiny increase over three years than they would pay for an old yearly one over the same time period, while those with rifles paid less than the yearly cost of the old licenses over the new three year license.

Yes,because we lobbied about it enmasse and got the biggest gun owning group to go ape about it too[the IFA].Compared to 4.8k deer hunters?Drop in the ocean.

So if we were to pay say €10, €15 or even €20 per license it's a small fee, comparatively, and most wouldn't mind paying it. Also any fee however small will be hundreds of times more than what we pay now, nothing.

Better paying nothing than paying "small fees" which have the tendency to become very big fees within a matter of years in this country.Point being,why give away something for free in the belif[misguided IMHO] of it being betterd by introducing "the government that here to help":eek:

All with the intention of it going back into the department (NPWS). If it were a fee just to be thrown into the "pile" that is the exchequer then it's of no benefit to the sport and at this point i would oppose it.

Take a WAG which will happen...NPWS. as has been pointed out cant accept under current legislation outside monies its govt mandated budget. So it will end up on the govt pile or in someones pocket.

As opposed to the current system of NOTHING

.
Which,until we have exactly cleared up,who gets what in payments,is proably the best place to stay.I have no intention in buying annual tags and doing stupid courses,unless I know this money is going back into the sport and not financing someones new range rover.

I'm usually a pessimist but i won't shoot something down, especially something new/never used before, before it's been tried. If it gets abused by fraud then its like poachers with no deer licenses/firearm license/land permission. If they intend to break the law nothing will stop them. However it might make a small improvement to overall population of stalkers and those working inside the law will not find it a burden.

I just cant see how burdening ourselves with extra beuraccy and costs will improve anything.Especially,as it doesnt benefit or do anything apart from adding "traceability" to the carcass.Which is irrevelant if I am eating it myself.

No system will be fool proof, but something has to be tried. I'm tired of the poaching, lampin, and trespassing on my permissions and being powerless to do anything about it.

Yes it does,but not by adding more costs to yourself in "courses" and tags

However what i'm MOST sick of is the few that shoot hundred(s) of Deer each year, make a living of it, while criticizing others for much lesser infractions.

Ok once again,for the umpteenth year running from me.REMOVE the game dealers "easy money" and declare a five year moratorium on wild deer being sold in the ROI.Take the "easy money" out of any aspect of Irish life,and the cowboys and chancers move on to the next scam.As well as break the cumpulsory middle man selling to a GDmarket.If I am certified as being a game butcher and competent to deal with carcasses,why cant I sell it directly to a consumer,at a better price if I can get it?

Half the problems we have before and today are from trying to "copy and paste" a foreign system into our own. DON'T

.

So copying a "tagging system" isnt a foregin concept??

Already done here.

Nope as above RE GD.

As for a mandatory second course, seems pointless, futile, and with so much resistance to one course i cannot see them saying "great you passed your deer stalking test, now you have to do another before you can actually deer stalk".

This is Ireland mate.We suck up all and any shte thrown at us!:rolleyes:

Not even close. That was an attempt to monopolize a market that blew up badly in their face.

Er NO.HCAP/WADI started this all off by mission creeping out of their Coilte lets..Remember?The market was saturated in training Coilte let hunters and 2/3rds of the lics were outside Coilte remits.

As it stands people write in a number on a piece of paper and no one can verify oy done here.r prove its legitimacy. Introduce simple tagging and now the person must either create their own to circumvent it or try and sell illegally without the tag.

Whats to stop them from not entering a location into their cell phones as well?Its an honour system too,just more expensiveto the law abiding.who filled out their forms anyway.

To circumvent the tags they must explain why they are returning more tags than was issued, or why they are selling without a tag. Closer inspection of game dealers will help curtail illegal selling however i doubt most game dealers would engage in illegal selling but start to look at butchers or other sources where deer can be sold without tags or traceability.

Butchers are the LAST people who would want to be caught with a deer carcass in their premises.It violates H&S,and various whole sale food storage rules.They cant even use the same equipment from a beef carcass to a deer carcass.The problem is not there.Its in the money aspect with the GD,o all we will have is more tags issued on legitimately...How does that stop or deter poaching?All I see it being useful is controlling the likes of you and me coming home and running into a checkpoint.

Those committing illegal acts and working to circumvent new security measures will continue to do so. Illegal is illegal.

Exactly,so as is always said "follow the money"Why is there mass poaching?Money.Where it being paid out ?Game dealers.Who is making the most on this ?Game dealers... Problem identified and the source...WHY isnt being tackled??....multiple excuses and reason,and awkardnesss..So "do something!" easier to tinker around with the liscensing system and the easy marks.
End effect,better educated poachers,andmore ligit poached deer in the system.

That won't be up to the NPWS, AGS, or even DoJ. So no one knows.

Would it not behoove us to find out answers to this first before we start thinking its a good idea??

Agreed on that too.

Don't mistake my understanding for compliance or co-operation. My post is in response to the Podcast and not directed at the sport as a whole.

Never did. Just think some ideas are dangerous and need better thrashing out,because if stuff goes thru as is ,we won't be able to correct it,if ever for a long time yet to come. Its alot harder to change legislation once it is passed rather than before it becomes law.

I've been around long enough to see how quickly our own can feck things up and they will continue to do so once money is involved. However the damage is done by another group, so i'll reserve judgement on this new one until i see their actions.

So have I,but sofar,this sounds more like same o sameo,with a new lick of paint.

Would make a nice change.

At this stage, we have to, unless we want to be like the gun dealers protesting outside NPWS, because our "reps" went ahead and advocated something no one wanted.:(.That's the cost of taking your eyes off the ball, and what your "reps" are doing in your name.

Cass

I'll try keep this short-ish because no one wants to keep reading long posts.

The WDAI don't run the HCAP, the Deer Alliance do. Have done for over 18 years. They might be part of a conglomerate including the WDAI but its the deer alliance's baby.

I could argue back that something needs doing and you'll come back with "sure what if they do this or that, etc .............". Its long, drawn out, and frankly we can theorize about the what ifs all day, but we won't know until it happens.

The simple truth is people (and i'm one of them) are resistant to change. We don't like it, we don't want it, and we bitch and moan when it comes. A mandatory course is coming. There is no stopping that. It won't be the monopoly others wanted and that is a good thing. To think people won't jump on the bandwagon (for better or worse) is naive.

Game dealers are not the only problem. If you close them down it'll be sold elsewhere via other means. People will find a way in the same way you say they will find a way around tags.

As for tags, of course its an idea from another country. I didn't mean to reinvent the wheel merely to use a basis from another country but don't try and implement it in the exact same was the country of origin.

We are still coming from an attitude of "lets try stop everything". It won't happen, and the wheels are already in motion.

We're not at the tables where the discussion(s) are being held so we have no control over what is being done, said or proposed. People involved will do as they want regardless of their members wishes and those in authority on the Government side can impose any fees or laws to make their will, law.

We can make our voice heard, but usually its a reaction to something one of these groups have done as per the first mandatory course introduction "trail". IOW too little and sometimes too late. IOW as long as these groups can still whisper in the ears of those making the laws we will never win in the long run and these things will come in.

My attitude has changed somewhat over the last couple of years. I'm tired of fighting a loosing fight and watching the same type of people commercialize and privatize a free sport to the detriment of either the very sport they want to control or other sports as casualties of gaining that control. The mandatory course is an example. We stopped it first time round, but the damage was done, now its coming.

Same when we got the renewals a few years back, I said for everyone to ignore the new questions as they were not legally necessary and was only giving fuel to the groups trying to privatize the sport, but still people filled it in and then we get the mandatory course.

How do you fight for people that are so intent on destroying the sport you're trying to help/save? The vast majority don't know or don't want to get involved in "politics" not realising their sport is in danger of being done away with or so controlled it'll be impossible to do it.

Rows Grower

I'm a newcomer to shooting and it seems to me that every experienced person on this forum is more or less of the same opinion, they want to encourage new members and they want the sport to grow and thrive safely with the least outside interference from people who don't shoot or understand the sport. Naturally they want and expect maximum accountability from those in a position of responsibility.

I can't for the life of me understand why ye don't start a new organisation to achieve what everyone here wants, the expertise and experience among members here has to be second to none.

That's my tuppence worth anyway, posters on here are too talented to remain hurlers on the ditch.

Grizzly 45

Can someone find the organisational spidergram for Rows that was done a few years back on shooting organisations?:) It will answer your question on "start a new organisation" her e. In short,I think we have an org for just about every aspect of shooting here. There is veritable alphabet soup out there of abbreviations in the Irish shooting world. So adding one more to the confusing mess won't help, and many are covering the same aspect of the sport, but split because of "the tyranny of small differences" [as Freud or GB Shaw said]Eg the peoples front of Judea Vs the Judean peoples front

It's not that we need a new org,we need our established orgs to act in the best interest of the sport in general,and not just what "they" think is best for their personal bank account,or furher dreams of a totalitarian system.

Sheep breeder

A lot of people are hung up on different types of shooters, first the guy that hobby shoots 3 or 4 for the season, second the guy that is trophy shooting, third the guy that is culling for land owners, fourth the tramps that are out shooting over ground with no rights to and giving every man that holds a gun a bad name, and fifth the man that one and two call a poacher and shoots as the third who is taking care of a problem of numbers for tb and land damage.
The one that needs to go is the fourth fellas and let the first three cooperate to get rid of these guys who use the different organisations to cover them up.

Grizzly 45

Cass wrote: »

I'll try keep this short-ish because no one wants to keep reading long posts.

The WDAI don't run the HCAP, the Deer Alliance do. Have done for over 18 years. They might be part of a conglomerate including the WDAI but its the deer alliance's baby.

I could argue back that something needs doing and you'll come back with "sure what if they do this or that, etc .............". Its long, drawn out, and frankly we can theorize about the what ifs all day, but we won't know until it happens.

The simple truth is people (and i'm one of them) are resistant to change. We don't like it, we don't want it, and we bitch and moan when it comes. A mandatory course is coming. There is no stopping that. It won't be the monopoly others wanted and that is a good thing. To think people won't jump on the bandwagon (for better or worse) is naive.

Game dealers are not the only problem. If you close them down it'll be sold elsewhere via other means. People will find a way in the same way you say they will find a way around tags.

As for tags, of course its an idea from another country. I didn't mean to reinvent the wheel merely to use a basis from another country but don't try and implement it in the exact same was the country of origin.

We are still coming from an attitude of "lets try stop everything". It won't happen, and the wheels are already in motion.

We're not at the tables where the discussion(s) are being held so we have no control over what is being done, said or proposed. People involved will do as they want regardless of their members wishes and those in authority on the Government side can impose any fees or laws to make their will, law.

We can make our voice heard, but usually its a reaction to something one of these groups have done as per the first mandatory course introduction "trail". IOW too little and sometimes too late. IOW as long as these groups can still whisper in the ears of those making the laws we will never win in the long run and these things will come in.

My attitude has changed somewhat over the last couple of years. I'm tired of fighting a loosing fight and watching the same type of people commercialize and privatize a free sport to the detriment of either the very sport they want to control or other sports as casualties of gaining that control. The mandatory course is an example. We stopped it first time round, but the damage was done, now its coming.

Same when we got the renewals a few years back, I said for everyone to ignore the new questions as they were not legally necessary and was only giving fuel to the groups trying to privatize the sport, but still people filled it in and then we get the mandatory course.

How do you fight for people that are so intent on destroying the sport you're trying to help/save? The vast majority don't know or don't want to get involved in "politics" not realising their sport is in danger of being done away with or so controlled it'll be impossible to do it.

I'll keep it short too. Reason people don't want to get involved is simply a lot of us are quite frankly,late middle-aged onwards, and aren't very computer literate and still preferred actual paper info. Since the demise of ISD, yes it was a history book on info by the time it was published.But it kept alot of the older generation informed.So a large per cent of more mature stalkers IMO just haven't a clue what's going on, in their name.

You are right about resistance to change, but rather than get my entire body crushed by the steamroller,I'd rather my toes were hit than my entire torso.IOW let's try and minimise the damage to us.

As for the orgs and changing. The choices are either join en masse one or the other, and change from the inside. Rather long winded and now a bit too late to matter. Or just blizzard those who claim to represent us, that they are not doing this in our name, and we disagree with their proposals.

It might be a losing fight,but we can fight a rearguard action and make it bloody for them. Plus I can't see a lot of this being introduced without massive legislative change,to the act and some serious accountability and tendering in the public eye. Now for that to happen it will require someone at ministerial level to step up and bat, and we know how pouplar that can be for Govt types to do,if they know there might be loss of votes and controversy behind it. Also, this also brings into play the EU qualifications and compatibility of licenses in Ireland and will even UK qualifications post Brexit be acceptable here? Can.Of.Worms and they want all this done by 2020 short months of another general election 2021? SFA done..And a fuk load to do in their cases then.

Rows Grower

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

I'll keep it short too. Reason people don't want to get involved is simply a lot of us are quite frankly,late middle-aged onwards, and aren't very computer literate and still preferred actual paper info. Since the demise of ISD, yes it was a history book on info by the time it was published.But it kept alot of the older generation informed.So a large per cent of more mature stalkers IMO just haven't a clue what's going on, in their name.

You are right about resistance to change, but rather than get my entire body crushed by the steamroller,I'd rather my toes were hit than my entire torso.IOW let's try and minimise the damage to us.

As for the orgs and changing. The choices are either join en masse one or the other, and change from the inside. Rather long winded and now a bit too late to matter. Or just blizzard those who claim to represent us, that they are not doing this in our name, and we disagree with their proposals.

It might be a losing fight,but we can fight a rearguard action and make it bloody for them. Plus I can't see a lot of this being introduced without massive legislative change,to the act and some serious accountability and tendering in the public eye. Now for that to happen it will require someone at ministerial level to step up and bat, and we know how pouplar that can be for Govt types to do,if they know there might be loss of votes and controversy behind it. Also, this also brings into play the EU qualifications and compatibility of licenses in Ireland and will even UK qualifications post Brexit be acceptable here? Can.Of.Worms and they want all this done by 2020 short months of another general election 2021? SFA done..And a fuk load to do in their cases then.

Looks like the only option if people want change.

Otherwise fellas moaning and complaining on here are comparable to the people who don't vote in general elections because "their all gangsters anyway."

Hunter456

just another arsehole with an agenda to push their own objectives to cash in and have their little power trips.

Rows Grower

Hunter456 wrote: »

just another arsehole with an agenda to push their own objectives to cash in and have their little power trips.

Who?

Hunter456

Rows Grower wrote: »

Who?

the lad speaking on the podcast.