Has Gaelic Football lost it's appeal?

robbiezero

For me, yes it has lost its appeal. Entertainment value of the games itself has decreased quite a bit and one juggernaut team dominating the championship has also detracted hugely from its appeal.
Even Dublin as they fine tune their "process" are not that great to watch. Their process game is all about retaining possession and setting up a high percentage shot at goal and in order to do that they eliminate a lot of the "low percentage of execution" skills
e.g. contested high fielding - They don't (or very rarely) kick the ball out for a contest in the midfield or kick high ball into their forwards.
kick passing - Dubs used to be a brilliant kick passing team, but they have largely eschewed this skill as favor of the high-percentage hand pass. Tyrones range of kick passing in the first 15 minutes was excellent to watch.
Long range point kicking - again not a high percentage still so rarely taken on by the Dubs.
The process is all about hard running and hand-passing to set up a high percentage shot in front of the goals and I find this quite boring. It's also a pity as the Dubs are a wonderfully skillful team, probably the most skillful team to ever play the game and you do get to see it in some games e.g. the high fielding of Fenton and Howard vs Donegal (notably on the opposition kickout rather than their own), but it has become a bit too rare for my liking.

Wildly Boaring

There's always the haves and have nots in GAA and in most sports.

Thinking about it again, I have no real problem that Dublin are so good and far ahead. The rest need to catch up. As pointed out Kerry have 5 minors in a row, Mayo v close in recent years.

I too used attend games as a neutral. Went to couple Munster finals. Went to double and triple headers in croker. Went to Tyrone Armagh in Ulster.

Majority of team sports are played by defending and breaking hard. Man on man marking leaves the defending team at a disadvantage. And these sports are exciting to their supporters.

GAA need to decide how they want the game to develop. They have not developed the rules to follow the development of the game or to drive the game the way they want.
AFL has the mark
Basketball waterpolo etc the shot clock
Basketball also has backcourt and 3 in the key
Soccer rugby the offside line
Netball has some mad zonal system

These rules are there to either speed the game or create space on the pitch for the attacker to exploit.

On top of this other sports have to constantly tweak their rules to maintain a balance of attack/defence.

Rugby constantly mess with the ruck to give more rights to attack or defence.
Rugby also invented bonus points and have more points for try.
Soccer messes with the offside line.

The GAA invented the black card and then refs were abused so much for using it that it doesn't exist in high priority games.

Takes more than my humble brain to give the answer here.
Proper mark?
Shot clock?
13 a side?
Limit number of players inside 45?
Number of handpasses limited?
Backcourt at the 45?
Define the tackle?
Allow rolling subs?

irelandrover

Even if you take Dublin out of this discussion, were the games not involving Dublin this year good games to watch?
I cant say I actually enjoyed watching too many matches this year.
Donegal Tyrone was interesting to watch as it was a close game, the quality of football wasnt that high.

Add in the almost certainty of Dublin winning the All-Ireland and you can see why interest is waining.

robbiezero

irelandrover wrote: »

Even if you take Dublin out of this discussion, were the games not involving Dublin this year good games to watch?
I cant say I actually enjoyed watching too many matches this year.
Donegal Tyrone was interesting to watch as it was a close game, the quality of football wasnt that high.

Add in the almost certainty of Dublin winning the All-Ireland and you can see why interest is waining.

Mayo v Kildare was probably the best game I watched this year in the football.

Nermal

Why is skillful, patient, probing buildup by hand-passing so hated?

I don't understand why hoofing 50/50 balls into the middle of the field is 'exciting', but organised play is not. It's weird attitude.

WesternZulu

Nermal wrote: »

Why is skillful, patient, probing buildup by hand-passing so hated?

I don't understand why hoofing 50/50 balls into the middle of the field is 'exciting', but organised play is not. It's weird attitude.

I completely agree.

Most people nowadays follow more than one sport so you'll have hurling supporters who more than likely follow soccer and/or rugby.
Soccer and rugby are far slower paced than football but yet you won't hear the same criticism towards them.

Aimless kicking in the 'heyday' of gaelic football was in all honesty awful to watch.

Sweet.Science

The should introduce rolling subs - teams dont have the strength and conditioning that Dublin have and never will . S & C is an arms race. The more money you put into it the better the reward .

Pixel Eater

I think a relatively straight forward rule would simply to reduced the amount of handpasses allowed; say after 5 passes the next player would have to kick it (only forward maybe). It would be like the same concept as the 5 tackles in rugby league. Teams endlessly handpassing it really can stifle any excitement in a match.

Niles Crane

WesternZulu wrote: »

I completely agree.

Most people nowadays follow more than one sport so you'll have hurling supporters who more than likely follow soccer and/or rugby.
Soccer and rugby are far slower paced than football but yet you won't hear the same criticism towards them.

Aimless kicking in the 'heyday' of gaelic football was in all honesty awful to watch.

The heyday of Football was the 1990's though, you had a nice mix of short and long passing and the kickpassing wasn't the aimless hoof it style of previous decades.The 1998 all ireland final encapsulated this as you had Kildare as a short passing team playing against Galway who play a more catch and kick game.The game had just enough tactical innovations then ,just enough high fitness then to make it better without actually destroying the game.

Players like John Divilly who was a great player wouldn't be able to play the way he wanted these days as they be told instead of sending direct ball into the forwards to retain posession and handpass it out of defence.The most exciting bits of the match on Sunday were when Tyrone decided to hit the ball long into Colm Cavanagh.

One on one constests for the ball have been taken out of the game, one of the great things in the lead up to games years ago were all the one on one battles and who would get the better of them but this has bene taken out of the game as it's very rare a long kick pass is sent where the corner forward, wing forward has to beat his man to the ball.That was the type of football I grew up playing and watching and it's all but disappeared.High fielding is another aspect of the game people loved and although the players can do it as well as ever it again is not needed becaue we don't see as many kckouts go to midfield to be contested by the midfielder.A lot of the things that make the game great have been erorded and they need to be brought back.

Sports often need to be saved from themselves and that is what football needs.

Danjamin1

Niles Crane wrote: »

The heyday of Football was the 1990's though, you had a nice mix of short and long passing and the kickpassing wasn't the aimless hoof it style of previous decades.The 1998 all ireland final encapsulated this as you had Kildare as a short passing team playing against Galway who play a more catch and kick game.The game had just enough tactical innovations then ,just enough high fitness then to make it better without actually destroying the game.

Players like John Divilly who was a great player wouldn't be able to play the way he wanted these days as they be told instead of sending direct ball into the forwards to retain posession and handpass it out of defence.The most exciting bits of the match on Sunday were when Tyrone decided to hit the ball long into Colm Cavanagh.

One on one constests for the ball have been taken out of the game, one of the great things in the lead up to games years ago were all the one on one battles and who would get the better of them but this has bene taken out of the game as it's very rare a long kick pass is sent where the corner forward, wing forward has to beat his man to the ball.That was the type of football I grew up playing and watching and it's all but disappeared.High fielding is another aspect of the game people loved and although the players can do it as well as ever it again is not needed becaue we don't see as many kckouts go to midfield to be contested by the midfielder.A lot of the things that make the game great have been erorded and they need to be brought back.

Sports often need to be saved from themselves and that is what football needs.

I blame Jim McGuinness & his blanket system ****e for that change. What team is going to kick into an area with 14 men inside their own 45?

robbiezero

Danjamin1 wrote: »

I blame Jim McGuinness & his blanket system ****e for that change. What team is going to kick into an area with 14 men inside their own 45?

Yes, I think you are correct on that. The blanket defense has taken a lot of the nice kick passing out of the game.

Dublin used to have a great kick passing game, but in fairness to them with the way teams structure themselves against them, it is impossible for them to use it.

AlanG

Will I Am Not wrote: »

Did hurling lose its appeal when Kilkenny were so dominant? .....
It's up to the rest to get better. People in general love to watch and admire teams or individuals excel. Except Dublin... for reasons of the sour grape variety.

The difference is that Kilkenny always had the weakness of having limited players and money compared to other counties so there was always a good chance they would ebb. Dublin have the dominance, money, population and infrastructure. Along side that most other counties have a large number of their squad living outside the county. It is hard to get lads to travel from Dublin to Donegal or Tullamore four times a week if they are getting trashed by the Dubs each year. A leinster team would likely have to beat Dublin twice in one year to win an All Ireland - the super 8 and backdoor system both massively benefit the bigger teams.
15 years ago Leinster finals were selling out, now you barely get over 50,000 for Dublin in an All Ireland Semi Final - there is certainly a lot of problems, not of Dublin's making but from the GAA's drive for more revenue.

Dannyriver

robbiezero wrote: »

Yes, I think you are correct on that. The blanket defense has taken a lot of the nice kick passing out of the game.

Dublin used to have a great kick passing game, but in fairness to them with the way teams structure themselves against them, it is impossible for them to use it.

I agree with the point but don t think 'blame' is an appropriate word here. Donegal has a smaller demographic to choose from than a lot of other counties so the chances of finding genuine class forwards is a lot less. McGuiness was well aware of this and used his squad based on its merits. Tyrone had a similar problem at the weekend, where in the past they had the likes of Canavan, O Neil, Mulligan. You can turn average players into seriously competitive players who as a unit can do amazing things but you need a much larger pool of players to choose from to find class players who pose attacking threats. It s why the Irish soccer team goes through awful barren spells as we wait for our next Robbie Keane or Frank Stapleton

EachSmallChime

Wildly Boaring wrote: »

There's always the haves and have nots in GAA and in most sports.

Thinking about it again, I have no real problem that Dublin are so good and far ahead. The rest need to catch up. As pointed out Kerry have 5 minors in a row, Mayo v close in recent years.

I too used attend games as a neutral. Went to couple Munster finals. Went to double and triple headers in croker. Went to Tyrone Armagh in Ulster.

Majority of team sports are played by defending and breaking hard. Man on man marking leaves the defending team at a disadvantage. And these sports are exciting to their supporters.

GAA need to decide how they want the game to develop. They have not developed the rules to follow the development of the game or to drive the game the way they want.
AFL has the mark
Basketball waterpolo etc the shot clock
Basketball also has backcourt and 3 in the key
Soccer rugby the offside line
Netball has some mad zonal system

These rules are there to either speed the game or create space on the pitch for the attacker to exploit.

On top of this other sports have to constantly tweak their rules to maintain a balance of attack/defence.

Rugby constantly mess with the ruck to give more rights to attack or defence.
Rugby also invented bonus points and have more points for try.
Soccer messes with the offside line.

The GAA invented the black card and then refs were abused so much for using it that it doesn't exist in high priority games.

Takes more than my humble brain to give the answer here.
Proper mark?
Shot clock?
13 a side?
Limit number of players inside 45?
Number of handpasses limited?
Backcourt at the 45?
Define the tackle?
Allow rolling subs?

I think you've hit the nail on the head or at least got the ball rolling on the right track. The game's problems are not rooted in Dublin being too good, the problems are in whether the game is actually fun to watch as a neutral?

I'm a Mayo fan with no invested interest in hurling but I was glued to this year's championship. My conclusion is that in Hurling when a defender/goalie picks up a ball, he quickly launches it high causing a 1 on 1 battle between 2 players.

As football tactics have become more refined (as they should) with teams handpassing the ball up the pitch we've lost the individual magic that hurling brings. Whatever rules are brought in, we need to bring back those 1 on 1 battles that are fascinating to watch.

Dannyriver

EachSmallChime wrote: »

I think you've hit the nail on the head or at least got the ball rolling on the right track. The game's problems are not rooted in Dublin being too good, the problems are in whether the game is actually fun to watch as a neutral?

I'm a Mayo fan with no invested interest in hurling but I was glued to this year's championship. My conclusion is that in Hurling when a defender/goalie picks up a ball, he quickly launches it high causing a 1 on 1 battle between 2 players.

As football tactics have become more refined (as they should) with teams handpassing the ball up the pitch we've lost the individual magic that hurling brings. Whatever rules are brought in, we need to bring back those 1 on 1 battles that are fascinating to watch.

Interestingly the hurling you enjoyed so much this year was as a result of teams borrowing that very notion of passing from the back which is an unbelievable skill with the speed and size of the ball. In football its a very basic skill that sucks the enjoyment and spontaneity out of the game..

deaddonkey15

As someone who has lost a lot of interest in football recently, I think it still has the appeal when the likes of Dublin/Mayo/Tyrone/Kerry come up against each other. The problem is even these games can be very hit and miss in terms of quality and entertainment. Dublin v Tyrone last year was very disappointing. I thought the final this year was decent enough and we've had some pretty good finals over the last few years. I enjoyed the Monaghan/Kerry and Meath/Tyrone games this year also.

Beyond the the final/semi final stage though I find it very difficult to get excited about many other games. There is absolutely no appeal to watching Dublin pulverise the likes of Louth and Longford in a half empty Croke Park. The Munster championship is a joke. Ulster and Connacht are some bit competitive but even then some of the football on display is sleep inducing. If it's a wet pitch then forget about getting a decent game. I think the Super 8s was a good idea but I don't agree with Dublin playing twice in Croke Park.

In fairness to Dublin, they really are a quality side and play good football. They may have advantages over other counties but to their credit they are making the absolute most of them. They still have to go out on the pitch and deliver and they are doing this relentlessly. Hopefully the standard they're setting will force other counties to match them and their style of football as opposed to trying to negate it.

EachSmallChime

I agree that it's hard to get excited about games but it was actually before the Semi Final stages that we saw the most enjoyable football. It was when teams like Kildare, Galway or Monaghan threw caution to the wind and had a go at attacking the opposition.

The semi-finals and final this year were dire.

Powerhouse

The game has lost a fair amount of appeal. People compare it with hurling and the big difference is that football has become a possession game while hurling isn't. The inherent attraction in a sport is a direct contest between two players but the way Gaelic Football has developed this has been put on the margins. There is limited aesthetic appeal in watching players handpass the ball to each other often under little or no pressure but while massed defences remain the norm players have little incentive to kick the ball forward.

It also has the added effect of taking the randomness out of the game. If a team like Dublin now gets ahead of a team which allows them exclusive use of the ball in certain areas of the pitch they are effectively unbeatable as they have perfected keeping possession. The sense of inevitability about the outcome of a competition does not enhance it either.

lalababa

WesternZulu wrote: »

I completely agree.

Most people nowadays follow more than one sport so you'll have hurling supporters who more than likely follow soccer and/or rugby.
Soccer and rugby are far slower paced than football but yet you won't hear the same criticism towards them.

Aimless kicking in the 'heyday' of gaelic football was in all honesty awful to watch.

Aimless kicking = more 50/50s =excitement, who is going to win possession? This still happens in the hurling when people are under pressure to clear the ball, or when they belt it up the park towards fowards, or just to gain ground. What's going to happen -markers come flying out to meet the ball= excitement.
Handpassing 5yrds backwards = borefest.

Powerhouse

Nermal wrote: »

Why is skillful, patient, probing buildup by hand-passing so hated?
.

People seem to find it boring.

Dannyriver

Powerhouse wrote: »

People seem to find it boring.

Because it's a pretty basic skill set to practice, and it encourages the blanket defense.

WesternZulu

lalababa wrote: »

Aimless kicking = more 50/50s =excitement, who is going to win possession? This still happens in the hurling when people are under pressure to clear the ball, or when they belt it up the park towards fowards, or just to gain ground. What's going to happen -markers come flying out to meet the ball= excitement.u
Handpassing 5yrds backwards = borefest.

Hurling is a fundamentally different game than football with regards of how far and quickly you can move the ball.
Consequently, the risk/reward of moving the ball in such a manner differs greatly between the two sports. Chances are in football if your player looses that 50/50 dual then your defence is under pressure because you haven't moved the ball far enough up the field.
I wish people would stop comparing the two sports. It's like watching Barcelona playing tika-taka and giving out the game is too slow because they don't belt it down the field like the hurlers do.

Powerhouse

WesternZulu wrote: »

I wish people would stop comparing the two sports. It's like watching Barcelona playing tika-taka and giving out the game is too slow because they don't belt it down the field like the hurlers do.

When they stop playing them on the same pitch with the same number of players and the same scoring system people might stop comparisons. The Barcelona reference is irrelevant.

shockframe

No.

Disappointing senior year overall but still some very good games. Kildare/Mayo, KIldare/Galway, Tyrone/Monaghan, Roscommon/Armagh, Dublin/Donegal, Monaghan/kerry.

Under 21 championship delivered some good games. Cork/Kerry, Kildare/Dublin. Decent All Ireland semi finals and final.

Excellent drama in the minor senes with high drama in Kerry/Monaghan and a great final between Kerry/Galway last sunday.

You'll always have moaners about the game. People see what they want to in these things. Football is still a joy.

Niles Crane

shockframe wrote: »

No.

Disappointing senior year overall but still some very good games. Kildare/Mayo, KIldare/Galway, Tyrone/Monaghan, Roscommon/Armagh, Dublin/Donegal, Monaghan/kerry.

Under 21 championship delivered some good games. Cork/Kerry, Kildare/Dublin. Decent All Ireland semi finals and final.

Excellent drama in the minor senes with high drama in Kerry/Monaghan and a great final between Kerry/Galway last sunday.

You'll always have moaners about the game. People see what they want to in these things. Football is still a joy.

But you've hit on the problem people have.

The game is fine when played in a positive fashion but it's poor when played negatively.

The u-21 and minor grades always produce exciting matches because the players go out and play football, at senior level the football is taken out of them and they have to subscribe to fulfilling a role in a defensive system.

If senior football teams went out with the same attitude minor and u-21 teams did nobody would be complaining.

Tigerandahalf

Pixel Eater wrote: »

I think a relatively straight forward rule would simply to reduced the amount of handpasses allowed; say after 5 passes the next player would have to kick it (only forward maybe). It would be like the same concept as the 5 tackles in rugby league. Teams endlessly handpassing it really can stifle any excitement in a match.

I have always thought a max of 3 hand passes and then you have to kick it. They need to bring back the skills of long accurate kicking and reward high fielding. Instead of introducing a mark for all catches they could allow the successful catcher get to his feet and not be encroached by 1 yard or/and have 1 second before a defender can encroach the catcher.

The above would encourage long accurate kicking and reward players who can field the ball.

I think they also need to do away with the pick up. It is not in the ladies game. On a wet day it is near impossible to pick up the ball and hold your feet.

Just to add - I only watched bits of the final. I hate what Tyrone represent and their diving and play acting. It is a rot in the game. It turns me off watching football. Glad to see Dublin win again for the style they play. They have huge depth but I am sure another team will come along and test them.

The Talking Bread

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

I only watched bits of the final. I hate what Tyrone represent and their diving and play acting. It is a rot in the game. It turns me off watching football. Glad to see Dublin win again for the style they play.

Ah, will you stop. If you want to bring up diving, the worst perpetrators on Sunday were Dublin. They are well able to pull out the dark arts at times, even though they are well able to win without them

Two words in particular, John Small.

Johnny Cooper, as tough a man as there is in the team, is a chief culprit also. That embarrassing stunt against McManus especially comes to mind

Edgware

DaltonHurler wrote: »

Well everyone,

just after the all Ireland Final I was wondering what do people think about football in this day and age. Like do people just get sick of Dublin winning it. Like we have to apprentice this 4-in-a-row team but for the neutral supporters what do they think?

While in hurling there have been five different winners in the last 6 years (Clare, Kilkenny, Tipperary, Galway and Limerick). Like I'm being honest I probably watched 40 mins of the final yesterday, so what do ye people think?

Normally I havent the Sunday paper read until Wednesday. Last Sunday I had it read by 5.15p.m. Its not Dublins fault. As for the Super 8s where were the other Super 7?

Tigerandahalf

@Talking bread

I agree they are all at it now. There was a lad in the minor game near the end who got barely touched near the sideline and he was rolling around clutching his face. It is just horrible to watch.

But there is definitely a rougher element in Ulster. It has been there for years, tugging jerseys, little digs, handbags. Perhaps it partly comes from the province being so competitive but the authorities have never cracked down on it.

The Talking Bread

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

@Talking bread

I agree they are all at it now. There was a lad in the minor game near the end who got barely touched near the sideline and he was rolling around clutching his face. It is just horrible to watch.

But there is definitely a rougher element in Ulster. It has been there for years, tugging jerseys, little digs, handbags. Perhaps it partly comes from the province being so competitive but the authorities have never cracked down on it.

To be fair to Tyrone, it was an honest effort for the most part on Sunday. Surely if they are as bad as people suggest at these antics this was the game when they needed to up their game in that regard as they needed every help they could but, apart from a few incidents, there was no serious playacting by them.