South Africa is about to expropriate stolen land. Should Ireland do the same?

realitykeeper

South Africa is about to expropriate stolen land from white farmers without compensation. This makes sense because the land was stolen by conquest. Should Ireland do the same in cases where there is a traceable lineage from the present day "owners" back to the time of Cromwell?

Closer to home, land reform is now being looked at in Scotland also. Indeed there are those who are asking how a few dozen Lairds came to "own" half of Scotland and how many of those came into "their" land by selling out Scotland. The following video pertains to Scotland. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2kTGLUh_c4

For me the answer to expropriation is an unequivocal yes! When I raised this matter in the past, some made the point that confiscating land is what Communists do but the difference is that Communists take land from people who own it, i.e. Communists steal private property. What I am suggesting is the opposite, taking land back from the thieves who stole it via conquest, and the state can then allocate shares in the confiscated properties to the Gaelic/Norman Irish, some of whom are farmers anyway and they can manage the new holdings for the shareholders. City dwellers can sell their share either to farmers who want to expand or to investors who want to speculate.

sexmag

I can't see how this would be possible.

Going through records and peoples family history to try and prove their ancestors owned land from 100s of years ago,let alone how you prove what land was who's via dimensions of the property lines etc

A family could be living on land that has changed hands countless times and you would want to take that off them and make them homeless....why?

Abel Ruiz

realitykeeper wrote: »

For me the answer to expropriation is an unequivocal yes!

Are you having a laugh?
Why stop at Cromwell in the 1600s? Why not go back further in history and see who was living on the land if there is traceable linage????
What is your start date?

This is similar to what happened when Israel was formed.

realitykeeper

Abel Ruiz wrote: »

Are you having a laugh?
Why stop at Cromwell in the 1600s? Why not go back further in history and see who was living on the land if there is traceable linage????
What is your start date?

This is similar to what happened when Israel was formed.

The Cape colony in South Africa was establish in 1652 whereas Cromwell did not complete his murderous war in Ireland until 1653. Surely therefore, if South Africans can right a wrong that happened way back in 1652, Ireland can right a wrong that happened relatively recently in 1653.

realitykeeper

sexmag wrote: »

I can't see how this would be possible.

Going through records and peoples family history to try and prove their ancestors owned land from 100s of years ago,let alone how you prove what land was who's via dimensions of the property lines etc

A family could be living on land that has changed hands countless times and you would want to take that off them and make them homeless....why?

The Dutch reclaimed land from the sea back in the middle ages. How? They tried. It is amazing what can be accomplished by trying. Sometimes it seems the Irish are too busy feeling sorry for themselves to do anything else.

backspin.

The Boer arrived on land that was uninhabited before any black people owned it. Most of the black tribes in south Africa today arrived later on.

o1s1n

Zimbabwe?

Wildsurfer

There was a lady on liveline last week who couldn't proceed with the sale of her house until she paid back rent owned on the leasehold to some Lord or other who lives in England, it was amounting to 40k or so. Now that's just crazy. Surely a law could be brought in to end that?

sexmag

realitykeeper wrote: »

The Dutch reclaimed land from the sea back in the middle ages. How? They tried. It is amazing what can be accomplished by trying. Sometimes it seems the Irish are too busy feeling sorry for themselves to do anything else.

Ok and my last part where a family could be taken off their land and left homeless to give land to someone who's ancient ancestors may have lived on it. What's your opinion there?

It's a different time, people work hard to pay for land and they themselves have hardly stole it off someone so how is 2 wrongs supposed to make a right here?

Edit: Ops thread history has a habit of making controversial threads that no one seems to believe are serious,I find this to be no different

Will this right a wrong?

Anyways we already had various land reforms before and after independence. We have problems keeping people on the land not landless people desperate for an acre.

whippet

Before Cromwell ... before the Normans .. Irish families and tribes plundered and murdered each other in land grabs .. how far do we go back ?

Wildsurfer

Wildsurfer wrote: »

There was a lady on liveline last week who couldn't proceed with the sale of her house until she paid back rent owned on the leasehold to some Lord or other who lives in England, it was amounting to 40k or so. Now that's just crazy. Surely a law could be brought in to end that?

It was in the seventies. She presumably didn't sort it then.

Abel Ruiz

realitykeeper wrote: »

, Ireland can right a wrong that happened relatively recently in 1653.

Are you taking the p1ss? 350 years ago???

whippet wrote: »

Before Cromwell ... before the Normans .. Irish families and tribes plundered and murdered each other in land grabs .. how far do we go back ?

Exactly. Realitykeeper is not living in... reality.

realitykeeper

backspin. wrote: »

The Boer arrived on land that was uninhabited before any black people owned it. Most of the black tribes in south Africa today arrived later on.

I think the vast majority of South Africans would disagree with you. Just because the black people used nomadic farming methods did not mean the land was unoccupied. The land was temporarily vacated for nature to replenish it when the whites moved in an occupied it. That`s stealing.

realitykeeper

o1s1n wrote: »

Zimbabwe?

Sanctions?

Guy:Incognito

realitykeeper wrote: »

The Cape colony in South Africa was establish in 1652 whereas Cromwell did not complete his murderous war in Ireland until 1653. Surely therefore, if South Africans can right a wrong that happened way back in 1652, Ireland can right a wrong that happened relatively recently in 1653.

How did the people they took the land off in 1652 get it in the first place?

realitykeeper

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

How did the people they took the land off in 1652 get it in the first place?

God gave Ireland to the Irish just as he gave Israel to the Jews.

archer22

realitykeeper wrote: »

God gave Ireland to the Irish just as he gave Israel to the Jews.

Any evidence for that?

realitykeeper

realitykeeper wrote: »

God gave Ireland to the Irish just as he gave Israel to the Jews.

I hadn't noticed that this was posted in legal discussion.

What would be the definition of Irish for the purposes of this land redistribution?

nim1bdeh38l2cw

Wildsurfer wrote: »

There was a lady on liveline last week who couldn't proceed with the sale of her house until she paid back rent owned on the leasehold to some Lord or other who lives in England, it was amounting to 40k or so. Now that's just crazy. Surely a law could be brought in to end that?

Absolutely, a law forcing you to pay your ground rent on time and it won't be an issue come selling.

Victor

Wildsurfer wrote: »

There was a lady on liveline last week who couldn't proceed with the sale of her house until she paid back rent owned on the leasehold to some Lord or other who lives in England, it was amounting to 40k or so. Now that's just crazy. Surely a law could be brought in to end that?

I refer you to the Landlord and Tenant (Ground Rents) Acts.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1967/act/3/enacted/en/html
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1978/act/16/enacted/en/html
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1980/act/10/enacted/en/html
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1983/act/20/enacted/en/html
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2005/act/7/enacted/en/html
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1989/act/2/enacted/en/html

(there may be others).

salmocab

realitykeeper wrote: »

God gave Ireland to the Irish just as he gave Israel to the Jews.

Well if he gave receipts then the original owners will be able to claim it back otherwise this is just as you well know nonsense.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Wildsurfer wrote: »

There was a lady on liveline last week who couldn't proceed with the sale of her house until she paid back rent owned on the leasehold to some Lord or other who lives in England, it was amounting to 40k or so. Now that's just crazy. Surely a law could be brought in to end that?

There’s also a property rights defence there.

However Ireland has a lot of land reform done already, it might be worth it in Scotland alright.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

How did the people they took the land off in 1652 get it in the first place?

The aristocrats in Ireland and the U.K. are generally of Norman extraction if that’s what you are asking.

Before that there may have been local aristocrats but there’s no strong evidence of large invasions in Ireland at least (although there were cultural changes).

God didn’t give Israel to the Jews, they took it by force. In fact Israeli settlers are closer to cromwellian plantations than white settlers in South Africa are.

hullaballoo

Moderator: nothing in the way of legal discussion about this thread.

Realitykeeper, do not start any further threads on this forum without leave from a Legal Discussion moderator.