Why are lgbt folk totally against the pope?

normaldude

Just watching RTÉ and high level lgbt speaker totally against pope visit, now I don’t agree with this, and what gives him the right to represent lgbt folk, can’t remember the guys name but seemed v bitter!

Heebie

Who says we're against the pope?
I'm against the entirety of the Roman Catholic Church, but as popes go, the current one is a lot better than the last one for sure.
But.... I'm extremely against my taxes being used to pay for security when the church ahold be paying that bill.
I'm extremely against road closures and a parade for anything related to the church.
I'm extremely against the church having any involvement at all in public education.
... and that list goes on and on.

I'm not an atheist, either. I'm a Christian. I just know that most of what the RCC is about is decidedly *NOT* Christian, and most of what the RCC teaches has nothing whatsoever to do with the teachings of Christ.

Ten of Swords

Are you referring to Colm O'Gorman on Prime Time?

gmisk

normaldude wrote: »

Just watching RTÉ and high level lgbt speaker totally against pope visit, now I don’t agree with this, and what gives him the right to represent lgbt folk, can’t remember the guys name but seemed v bitter!

I think you mean Colm ó Gorman?
I am not really sure he is there at the minute claiming to speak for lgbt people. More as an abuse victim of the Catholic Church.

normaldude

Well looks like something like 1 million people are going to see him, so obviously lots of people in the country like him! Now I’m a luke warm catholic and go the odd Sunday to mass, and won’t be going to see him, but I thought why this bitter bald guy apparently high level lgbt spokesman, was so against the pope🀔

Dickie10

will there b a chance of more young guys in dublin this weekend following the popes visit? i mean young men of the cloth ?? wink wink

normaldude

Wasn’t Colm ó Gorman, this guy looked like mike stipes from rem

gmisk

normaldude wrote: »

Well looks like something like 1 million people are going to see him, so obviously lots of people in the country like him! Now I’m a luke warm catholic and go the odd Sunday to mass, and won’t be going to see him, but I thought why this bitter bald guy apparently high level lgbt spokesman, was so against the pope🀔

High level lgbt spokesman?!
Colm o Gorman has hair.... I think you mean mannix Flynn maybe? He is a politician not a high level lgbt spokesman at all.
But again he is someone who was abused by members of the Catholic Church.

normaldude

Well he didn’t say he was abused! And it wasn’t the pope that pulled up his altarboy gown, can’t paint whole organization with the one brush! People forget the teaching of the church go back 1000s of years, how long do lgbt groups exist?

Pa8301

normaldude wrote: »

Well looks like something like 1 million people are going to see him, so obviously lots of people in the country like him! Now I’m a luke warm catholic and go the odd Sunday to mass, and won’t be going to see him, but I thought why this bitter bald guy apparently high level lgbt spokesman, was so against the pope🀔

Well the Catholic church hasn't exactly been welcoming toward the LGBT community now has it? Also, I doubt there will be 1 million people going to see him.

UrbanFret

normaldude wrote: »

Wasn’t Colm ó Gorman, this guy looked like mike stipes from rem

Max Krzyzanowski or something like that. Very irish name that.:eek:

gmisk

normaldude wrote: »

Well he didn’t say he was abused! And it wasn’t the pope that pulled up his altarboy gown, can’t paint whole organization with the one brush! People forget the teaching of the church go back 1000s of years, how long do lgbt groups exist?

I am pretty sure he did.... And he was (mannix flynn)
https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=%23&ved=2ahUKEwjw9puyk4TdAhVMDcAKHbObCFUQwqsBMAN6BAgKEAU&usg=AOvVaw0VTJzWxrN8ZFOD4xbU2nov
I don't think he was suggesting the pope abused him.... It was more there was a systematic failure from the top of not dealing with abuse in any effective way, in fact they covered it up and made the issue worse. Colm ó Gorman pointed out they took out insurance with regards abuse....horrendous.
Churches have existed for longer than lgbt groups.. Yeah probably.... What is your point?

the_syco

normaldude wrote: »

And it wasn’t the pope that pulled up his altarboy gown

The popes had the peados moved around.

normaldude wrote: »

can’t paint whole organization with the one brush

So you are claiming that "lgbt folk totally against the pope" BASED ON ONE PERSON SAYING IT??? That's a mighty big brush there! Pot, meet ketle, tbh!

normaldude wrote: »

People forget the teaching of the church go back 1000s of years, how long do lgbt groups exist?

People were LGBT before the church, and said groups probably only formed because of prosecution by the church.

gmisk

UrbanFret wrote: »

Max Krzyzanowski or something like that. Very irish name that.:eek:

Ah yeah bloody foreigners coming over here and preaching to good Irish people.... Its not on is it.... Lol

c.p.w.g.w

His head of an organisation that has done some of the most unspeakable things in the country and across the world.

They ostracized members of the LGBT as well single/unwed mothers. Abused kids, covered it all up. Their victims are still waiting for their compensation too, from an incredible rich organisation.

I for one wouldn't be welcoming the visit of the head of such an organisation

uck51js9zml2yt

Heebie wrote: »

Who says we're against the pope?
I'm against the entirety of the Roman Catholic Church, but as poppers go, the current one is a lot better than the last one for sure.
But.... I'm extremely against my taxes being used to pay for security when the church ahold be paying that bill.
I'm extremely against road closures and a parade for anything related to the church.
I'm extremely against the church having any involvement at all in public education.
... and that list goes on and on.

I'm not an atheist, either. I'm a Christian. I just know that most of what the RCC is about is decidedly *NOT* Christian, and most of what the RCC teaches has nothing whatsoever to do with the teachings of Christ.

Were you also against all the road closures and money spent on security when the Queen was here?
Just look at all the British did to us.

Or how about the money other countries spend when our head of state visits them?

normaldude

Well it’s teaching are generally good, love your neighbor as yourself, I agree they have been hard on lgbt community but I think that will change in time. People forgot with such an old organization it takes along time to change.
As for comparing it with lgbt organization will it be around in 2000 years? Will anyone care about lgbt issues then?

Pa8301

normaldude wrote: »

Well it’s teaching are generally good, love your neighbor as yourself, I agree they have been hard on lgbt community but I think that will change in time. People forgot with such an old organization it takes along time to change.
As for comparing it with lgbt organization will it be around in 2000 years? Will anyone care about lgbt issues then?

If the church practiced what it preached it might not be so loathed by so many people.

normaldude

Did the only lgbt charity not get closed for bad money handling? So don’t paint a whole organization with a few bad apples!

gmisk

normaldude wrote: »

Did the only lgbt charity not get closed for bad money handling? So don’t paint a whole organization with a few bad apples!

Bad money handling? The only "gay charity"!?! Lol

So you are equating one badly run lgbt charity.... Which was shut down incidentally... To an organisation that covered up the systematic abuse of woman and children amongst a mountain of other things.....yeah I don't think so

Paint an organisation with a few apples!?! Not a clue

normaldude

U really don’t like the church, I guess you don’t have any happy memories of been family on catholic first communion, confirmations, weddings, death, basically the whole life cycle of lots of people in the country? So would you like all that stop?

gmisk

normaldude wrote: »

U really don’t like the church, I guess you don’t have any happy memories of been family on catholic first communion, confirmations, weddings, death, basically the whole life cycle of lots of people in the country? So would you like all that stop?

Is this directed at me? I am guessing so.
I don't hate the church at all, I detest the behaviour of some members of the organisation (and this seems to go very high up in the Catholic Church) and the lack of accountability they have been held too.
I was raised Catholic I have had generally good experiences and also encountered fantastic priests who without doubt were the definition of being Christian.
I do believe faith can have a hugely positive effect on people's lives and
I wouldn't in a million years want as you put it that life cycle to stop lots of people believe in and take comfort from it, more power to them.

I do disagree with massive amounts of public money being spent on the visit, just as I would with the head of any other wealthy religious organisation but hey that's another story.

I personally have no intention of protesting the visit, in fact I posted in another thread my sister her husband and there 4 kids will be going to the phoenix park event and they will be calling in to me beforehand, I hope they and all the other people that attend have a great time and find the experience really rewarding.

Annasopra

normaldude wrote: »

U really don’t like the church, I guess you don’t have any happy memories of been family on catholic first communion, confirmations, weddings, death, basically the whole life cycle of lots of people in the country? So would you like all that stop?

You should stop making assumptions that all lgbt people are one hive mind who think the exact same thing. We are not. Some lgbt people abhor religion. Some lgbt people are very religious. A trans friend of mine is extremely active in the Catholic Church and has written a book about transgender people in the Church going back centuries. It is silly to think this an lgbt versus the Pope thing when many lgbt people are Catholic and Catholics are lgbt or have lgbt family members.

On the other hand surely you can understand why lgbt people abhor the church so much when we have been turned away by the Catholic church, villified by it, demonised by it, ostracised by it, shamed by it? Many lgbt people were simply not welcome at many of the above ceremonies you mention. I know my own parish priest where I grew up was wonderful. He voted yes in both recent referenda and was the first priest in the World to allow female altar servers but many had horrible experiences of priests preaching fire and brimstone.

Its complex. Many lgbt people abhor the church. Many lgbt people take an active role in their local Church. You cant just make blanket assumptions that all lgbt people are extreme atheist anti Papists.

Ten of Swords

normaldude wrote: »

Just watching RTÉ and high level lgbt speaker totally against pope visit, now I don’t agree with this, and what gives him the right to represent lgbt folk, can’t remember the guys name but seemed v bitter!

Without knowing who you're referring to (several names have been suggested) all I can say is that nobody would go on TV and claim to speak for all LGBT people, he offered his viewpoint and you disagree with it. Did he make any specific comments that particularly annoyed you or was it just his attitude/demeanor?

the_syco

normaldude wrote: »

So would you like all that stop?

We can do all that and more without the church.

OP; do you oppose women priests?

normaldude

the_syco wrote: »

normaldude wrote: »

So would you like all that stop?

We can do all that and more without the church.

OP; do you oppose women priests?

No problem at all with women priests, there is v much a lack of priests.
But don’t understand how we could have blessed sacraments with the church?

P_1

Not against the pope as a man however vehemently against the organisation he is the leader of. Remember these people think that anyone who deviates from the hetronormative norm is a abomination. This is an organisation that facilitated the abuse of countless people and then had the ****ing gall to blame the actions of some bloody perverts on homosexuality. This is an organisation that has blocked every move towards an open society where everyone is accepted for who they are.

Now you might understand why theres so much hatred.

Hotblack Desiato

I haven't seen anyone on boards mention this, surprisingly



A 'Manif pour tous' homophobic t-shirt prominently on view on our national airwaves, nobody in RTE had a clue.

J_E

I know many gay men and women who are devoutly faithful and stand up for their faith. Was the point of this thread merely to create tension and derail discussion into insult? When posters have offered you points of information you have only accused them of being anti-religion/made some awful commentary about LGBT people and organisations.

UrbanFret wrote: »

Max Krzyzanowski or something like that. Very irish name that.:eek:

I have no idea what you are trying to insinuate but Max has done a lot of fantastic work for LGBT rights in Ireland. He is Irish.

Can't we just have one thread on this forum that doesn't immediately get hijacked with weasel words and giddy schoolboy banter

igCorcaigh

Why does this thread even exist?

Annasopra

igCorcaigh wrote: »

Why does this thread even exist?

I think its fine. Its a little controversial but thats ok - it gives lgbt people here the chance to dispel notions that we are all the same - "pope hating atheists" and also the chance to explain that there is context to why a lot of lgbt prople dont like the Church or the hierarchy.

jobbridge4life

igCorcaigh wrote: »

Why does this thread even exist?

Probably because we have high profile members of the media tweeting things like this:

https://twitter.com/DavQuinn/status/1033029158383828992

It promotes a base (mis)understanding of LGBT activism in general and grossly distorts the efforts of Christian and Catholic LGBT activists.

I consider myself an LGBT Catholic. I served as an alterserver, sing in choir, attend mass regularly, pray a lot. I am part of a family. I am a Godfather to my baby sister and take it seriously. I love and respect my Grandparents. I have sung, read the liturgy and prayers of the faithful, and otherwise participated in the in the mass at funerals, baptisms, weddings, etc. I did not spawn from soil, I do not live detached as an island. I am family. To host an event celebrating the 'family' in Ireland and to seek to erase the very notion of LGBT brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles, parents, children, cousins etc is an act of hostility and exclusion and is in direct contravention of evangelical message of Christ.

normaldude

Well I’m really glad that the pope is getting such a good welcome, and also addressing some of issues he inherited. The show in Croke Park was amazing would love to have gone. All the ‘haters’ must be eating some humble pie! Also did I see a few rainbows flags in his drive around dublin and definitely a few well know gays were at concert giving him a warm welcome.
I don’t see why lgbt folk and the church can’t coexist, do we not both preach a message of love

Annasopra

normaldude wrote: »

Well I’m really glad that the pope is getting such a good welcome, and also addressing some of issues he inherited. The show in Croke Park was amazing would love to have gone. All the ‘haters’ must be eating some humble pie! Also did I see a few rainbows flags in his drive around dublin and definitely a few well know gays were at concert giving him a warm welcome.
I don’t see why lgbt folk and the church can’t coexist, do we not both preach a message of love

I dont get it. Did you not read any replies here?

normaldude

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

normaldude wrote: »

Well I’m really glad that the pope is getting such a good welcome, and also addressing some of issues he inherited. The show in Croke Park was amazing would love to have gone. All the ‘haters’ must be eating some humble pie! Also did I see a few rainbows flags in his drive around dublin and definitely a few well know gays were at concert giving him a warm welcome.
I don’t see why lgbt folk and the church can’t coexist, do we not both preach a message of love

I dont get it. Did you not read any replies here?

Yes I did. Seems a lot of different opinions on my original question.

But I’m just giving an update, maybe you were not watching, might been too busy with lgbt issues

Annasopra

normaldude wrote: »

Yes I did. Seems a lot of different opinions on my original question.

But I’m just giving an update, maybe you were not watching, might been too busy with lgbt issues

Yes exactly. Different opinions but you seem to have ignored all of them. Bit weird. You dont seem to have taken on board anything at all. Whats the point of starting a discussion if you dont want to hear what people have to say?

normaldude

Yes exactly. Different opinions but you seem to have ignored all of them. I read them all and can see a lot of different view points.
Bit weird - if you think so, your intitled to your opinion.
You dont seem to have taken on board anything at all. Whats the point of starting a discussion if you dont want to hear what people have to say? Who said I didn’t want to hear what people had to say, it’s the reason I started this discussion, and as I can read above not everybody has the same view as the gay rights speakers on Thursday night. Can I ask did you watch the pope today?

JupiterKid

normaldude wrote: »

Yes exactly. Different opinions but you seem to have ignored all of them. I read them all and can see a lot of different view points.
Bit weird - if you think so, your intitled to your opinion.
You dont seem to have taken on board anything at all. Whats the point of starting a discussion if you dont want to hear what people have to say? Who said I didn’t want to hear what people had to say, it’s the reason I started this discussion, and as I can read above not everybody has the same view as the gay rights speakers on Thursday night. Can I ask did you watch the pope today?

You have received many responses on this thread that shows that although many LGBT people do have antipathy towards the church (as do many many heterosexual people too) and this is understandable given the Church’s historic hatred and persectuion of LGBT people, many LGBT people also are active and faithful Catholics. We are complex and cannot be pigeonholed.

But I suspect that you are not looking for these sorts of responses and are simply trolling to goad a reaction. Your username “normaldude” says it all. So you are “normal” because you are (presumably) straight and we as as LGBT are presumably abnormal?

Annasopra

JupiterKid wrote: »

You have received many responses on this thread that shows that although many LGBT people do have antipathy towards the church (as do many many heterosexual people too) and this is understandable given the Church’s historic hatred and persectuion of LGBT people, many LGBT people also are active and faithful Catholics. We are complex and cannot be pigeonholed.

But I suspect that you are not looking for these sorts of responses and are simply trolling to goad a reaction. Your username “normaldude” says it all. So you are “normal” because you are (presumably) straight and we as as LGBT are presumably abnormal?

Mod

Its not appropriate to throw out accusations of trolling. This is called back seat modding. If you suspect trolling report the post. As always responses to moderation should only be by pm.

ELM327

As someone who is not LGBT but is very much an ally of the LGBT community I understand why LGBT people are mostly anti the pope. I am anti the pope and the RCC for similar reasons. (setting aside the paedophilia)
The fact that they still pump out the rubbish about "the family" being man woman and child(ren) is discriminatory and borderline hate speech. They label homosexual acts as sinful and no amount of words or "apologies" can change this.

The program on RTÉ the other night with Mary McAleese really sums it up, the only concerning family was the mixed race one as they continue to indoctrinate their children with toxic religion. It was pleasantly surprising to see the teenage child with the adoptive gay male couple, it's something to date I'd not seen much of. LGBT parenting is still relatively new in this backward country so most of the children involved have not reached adulthood yet.

normaldude

You have received many responses on this thread that shows that although many LGBT people do have antipathy towards the church (as do many many heterosexual people too) and this is understandable given the Church’s historic hatred and persectuion of LGBT people, many LGBT people also are active and faithful Catholics. We are complex and cannot be pigeonholed.

But I suspect that you are not looking for these sorts of responses and are simply trolling to goad a reaction. Your username “normaldude” says it all. So you are “normal” because you are (presumably) straight and we as as LGBT are presumably abnormal?[/quote]

No not straight. Not a troll. Not a gay rights activist. Not a panti bliss fan.

But I am a normal joe soap, a fan of the pope visit, can see how much happiness and good will the pope visit is bringing hopefully the bitter man on RTÉ Thursday night heart will warm and show love not hate

eviltwin

I think it's obvious why so many people have an issue with the church and the Papel visit. It's obvious a lot of people have had a very positive experience of the church and this visit is a happy occasion and I hope they enjoy the day. I say that as someone with a very negative experience of the church.

I saw the guy the OP is referring to and he was angry but understandably so. I'm angry too. This visit and the lead up to it has been very difficult for a lot of people, there has been a lot of talk about the hurt caused over the years, it's natural that anyone affected is going to be reminded of difficult times.

I think it would be kinder if those lucky enough not to be in that group could show a bit of empathy and support to those who were victimised and just bear in mind that this weekend is not an easy one for us.

Enjoy your day and the park OP.

normaldude

eviltwin wrote: »

I think it's obvious why so many people have an issue with the church and the Papel visit. It's obvious a lot of people have had a very positive experience of the church and this visit is a happy occasion and I hope they enjoy the day. I say that as someone with a very negative experience of the church.

I saw the guy the OP is referring to and he was angry but understandably so. I'm angry too. This visit and the lead up to it has been very difficult for a lot of people, there has been a lot of talk about the hurt caused over the years, it's natural that anyone affected is going to be reminded of difficult times.

I think it would be kinder if those lucky enough not to be in that group could show a bit of empathy and support to those who were victimised and just bear in mind that this weekend is not an easy one for us.

Enjoy your day and the park OP.

OP know what you mean just saw this video on fb, I really hope visit brings some healing for those who were wounded in the past. https://youtu.be/iq-BB_aZUVI

Annasopra

normaldude wrote: »

OP know what you mean just saw this video on fb, I really hope visit brings some healing for those who were wounded in the past. https://youtu.be/iq-BB_aZUVI

The issue (as Eviltwin has said) for many is that it wont bring healing and literally reopens the wounds and retraumatises them.

I think Eviltwin is correct here - enjoy it, recognise that for many others it is deeply hurtful and retraumatising, respect this.

Sardonicat

OP, I don't know if you are aware but the Pope referred to those senior clergy involved in the cover up of clerical sexual abuse as "ca ca" in his meeting with abuse and mother and baby home survivors. He basically called them pieces of **** in Italian, which they are. He didn't bleat on about not tarring everyone with the same brush. I'm quite sure he perfectly understands why some people are extremely angry and bitter.

JupiterKid

normaldude wrote: »

No not straight. Not a troll. Not a gay rights activist. Not a panti bliss fan.

But I am a normal joe soap, a fan of the pope visit, can see how much happiness and good will the pope visit is bringing hopefully the bitter man on RTÉ Thursday night heart will warm and show love not hate

I think you'll find, given the very thin attendance at the Pope's Phoenix Park event today, that the "normal joe soap" doesn't want to have much to do with the church or the Pope or the Vatican any longer.

The church is its death throes in this country - and for good reason. Anyone disputing this fact is in deep denial.

It hugely damaged and betrayed a huge cohort of our population. It's the ones still clinging on who are the out of the ordinary now.

Heebie

JupiterKid wrote:

The church is its death throes in this country - and for good reason. Anyone disputing this fact is in deep denial.

It's my hope that it dies worldwide within my lifetime.

Ten of Swords

JupiterKid wrote: »

I think you'll find, given the very thin attendance at the Pope's Phoenix Park event today

Turnout was reported to be 130,000 - a quarter of the 500,000 expected

http://www.thejournal.ie/papal-mass-phoenix-park-crowd-size-4202680-Aug2018/

https://www.dublinlive.ie/news/dublin-news/pope-visit-ireland-dublin-15074489

normaldude

Folks I’m not getting much positivity from the lgbt community about the pope, what do the lgbt community want we all go adore panti bliss the apparent queen in waiting of Ireland? Let’s give up everything we were thought thought though our life/education system. Did anyone see in sky news 3.7 million people said they were catholic in this country. Every newspaper in this country agreed today a positive visit, what do lgbt want? Panti bliss to pope maybe?

Annasopra

normaldude wrote: »

Folks I’m not getting much positivity from the lgbt community about the pope, what do the lgbt community want we all go adore panti bliss the apparent queen in waiting of Ireland? Let’s give up everything we were thought thought though our life/education system. Did anyone see in sky news 3.7 million people said they were catholic in this country. Every newspaper in this country agreed today a positive visit, what do lgbt want? Panti bliss to pope maybe?

Fair enough you are positive about the visit. Dont expect everyone else to be. I really dont get it though. You have been told by numerous people that LGBT people are not a hive mind that all think the same. It has been explained to you (a lot) why some LGBT people would be deeply angry at the church (and badly hurt) because of how it has treated LGBT people (and women) and what it teaches about us. Clearly you are not listening to us at all.

Ten of Swords

There is no unified groupthink in the LGBT community and, although there has been a tenuous relationship between the RCC and the LGBT community, there are plenty of LGBT Christians and LGBT Catholics in Ireland.

Who/what are we "giving up" exactly? Also, the only one who has mentioned Panti Bliss in this thread is you.