Buy a diesel when it is not needed?

galengalen

I am looking at 09/10 used cars, such as Corolla and Avensis.
The issue is that the vast majority of such cars are diesel.
My driving (about 12K per year) does not justify buying a diesel.

Two queries - does a diesel last longer than a petrol?
Should you buy a diesel even if your annual mileage is low?

Thanks in advance

G

redlead

galengalen wrote: »

I am looking at 09/10 used cars, such as Corolla and Avensis.
The issue is that the vast majority of such cars are diesel.
My driving (about 12K per year) does not justify buying a diesel.

Two queries - does a diesel last longer than a petrol?
Should you buy a diesel even if your annual mileage is low?

Thanks in advance

G

There would be no difference in the cost between a petrol and diesel in a car that old so with the diesel you are getting better mpg and cheaper fuel at present. Fair enough if you were buying a new car the petrol is a smarter fit but you don't have anything to lose with the diesel and will save a few bob on fuel. Servicing is much the same in reality.

Diesel has a bad rep at the moment but there's nothing clean about petrol either which keeps getting overlooked. I personally prefer driving petrols and have both but I wouldn't let that sway it for me.

TheBoyConor

Wrong.

Diesel cars have more onerous servicing requirements.
They need to be serviced more often than petrols.
They are less tolerant of neglected servicing than petrols.
The price of parts is usually higher than petrol parts.
Due to the added complexity of them they tend to break down more often if not rigourously services, and sometimes even if meticulously looked after they still break down.
When they do break down the repairs are usually more expensive.

The only thing cheaper about diesels is the cost of the fuel. That's it.

Sleeper12

TheBoyConor wrote:

Diesel cars have more onerous servicing requirements. They need to be serviced more often than petrols. They are less tolerant of neglected servicing than petrols. The price of parts is usually higher than petrol parts. Due to the added complexity of them they tend to break down more often if not rigourously services, and sometimes even if meticulously looked after they still break down. When they do break down the repairs are usually more expensive.

TheBoyConor wrote:

The only thing cheaper about diesels is the cost of the fuel. That's it.

I'd disagree with pretty much all of the above. I'm not a mechanic so it's personal & not professional opinion.

They do require service more often but only a basic service. There's no plugs or points. Basic service is oil change, oil filter fuel filter and air filter. I'm not even sure if air filter needs replacing every service.

I'm on my third diesel, two jeeps and now a van. A serviced diesel will run for hundreds of thousands of miles. I'd have a diesel any day over petrol.

Again personal experience and not professional experience. If any mechanics comment I'm happy to bow to their professional experience

redlead

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Wrong.

Diesel cars have more onerous servicing requirements.
They need to be serviced more often than petrols.
They are less tolerant of neglected servicing than petrols.
The price of parts is usually higher than petrol parts.
Due to the added complexity of them they tend to break down more often if not rigourously services, and sometimes even if meticulously looked after they still break down.
When they do break down the repairs are usually more expensive.

The only thing cheaper about diesels is the cost of the fuel. That's it.

The above is all a gross exaggeration. Services may cost more but are often very similar. Service intervals are more often than not the same. Based on experience there is very little difference in maintenance costs between the two. I've never had to spend a penny on fixing engines on any of my petrol or diesel cars. Anything outside of servicing are things that affect both cars. Modern engines are extremely reliable so long as you change your oil when you're supposed to. There are lots of fan boys of both on here but if I was the OP I wouldn't be worrying about getting a diesel if he likes the car.

Sleeper12

I'm in a 2017 Ford Connect & it requires a service every 30,000 kilometres (18,000 miles) or every 12 months according to the manual. I can't see you going 30,000 kilometres between service in a petrol engine

TheBoyConor

Did you just say points? =-:O
Maybe we should grease our trunnion bearings weekly and check oil our starting handles! ;-)

Plugs can last up to 60,000 miles.
Nissans have a 54k miles interval on plugs.

And a diesel need an oil change every 15k Kms. Petrol about every 30k Kms. That adds up to a big enough cost over time.

TheBoyConor

Wrong.
Petrols are generally way more tolerant of neglected servicing.
They don't operate at the same levels of pressure, temperature and vibration that a diesel does. They also don't generate half as much soot in the oil. Generally they don't have turbos which put additional stress on the oil and exhaust it's usefulness faster sure to the intense heat.

I have not changed the oil in my Nissan for nearly 3 years and roughly 45k miles and it's still not fully black, still has a hint of gold colour to it. It's going perfect.
Try leaving the oil in a diesel that long and the oil will have turned into black gloopy muck which will probably knackered your turbo bearings.

Petrols are a mechanically much simpler machine nowadays than diesels. Even the fuel system runs at only a tiny fraction of that found in a diesel engine.

Sleeper12

TheBoyConor wrote:

And a diesel need an oil change every 15k Kms. Petrol about every 30k Kms. That adds up to a big enough cost over time.

My diesel Ford Connect gets 30,000 kms not 15k between service and does not require any oil changes between service. I think you are generalising too much. A well serviced diesel engine will have a longer lifespan than a petrol. Factor in the cheaper fuel costs too.

I can only offer advice on my experience with three diesel vehicles. I think op should ask a diesel mechanic for their opinion.

Dakota Dan

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Wrong.
Petrols are generally way more tolerant of neglected servicing.
They don't operate at the same levels of pressure, temperature and vibration that a diesel does. They also don't generate half as much soot in the oil. Generally they don't have turbos which put additional stress on the oil and exhaust it's usefulness faster sure to the intense heat.

I have not changed the oil in my Nissan for nearly 3 years and roughly 45k miles and it's still not fully black, still has a hint of gold colour to it. It's going perfect.
Try leaving the oil in a diesel that long and the oil will have turned into black gloopy muck which will probably knackered your turbo bearings.

Petrols are a mechanically much simpler machine nowadays than diesels. Even the fuel system runs at only a tiny fraction of that found in a diesel engine.

Any diesel car I had were done at around 120k miles, I’ve two petrol cars now with over 200k miles on them and still going strong. I reckon the people trumpeting diesels are buying new and trading before they hit 100k miles.

Sleeper12

Dakota Dan wrote:

Any diesel car I had were done at around 120k miles, I’ve two petrol cars now with over 200k miles on them and still going strong. I reckon the people trumpeting diesels are buying new and trading before they hit 100k miles.

I've seen diesel engines go over 500,000 when serviced correctly.

I really don't get this petrol engine is more tolerant of Iregular servicing. A basic service once a year is 150 or less. Why would anyone not service their engine once a year?

Sleeper12

TheBoyConor wrote:

I have not changed the oil in my Nissan for nearly 3 years and roughly 45k miles and it's still not fully black, still has a hint of gold colour to it. It's going perfect. Try leaving the oil in a diesel that long and the oil will have turned into black gloopy muck which will probably knackered your turbo bearings.

Dear god I'd hate to buy a car from you!

TheBoyConor

Yes possibly.

Or else the have/had our are thinking of the older naturally aspirated or turbo diesels with mechanical injection and without all the troublesome add ons like egr, dmf, dpf, electronically controlled injector pumps with piezoelectric injectors that run at truly insanely high pressures where the slightest spec or impurity will cause blockage or damage. It's usually those items that actually give the bother.

The older diesels were genuinely rock solid and bulletproof beyond anything before or after.

TheBoyConor

Sleeper12 wrote:

Dear god I'd hate to buy a car from you!

You wouldn't be able to. I don't sell my cars. I drive them into the ground until they are unsalable, un NCTable, and sometimes undrivable. Then I scrap them.
I never spent more than e1,100 on a car.
Waste of money in my opinion and I've no time for cars beyond them being a necessary implement for getting from a to b. I think many people wantonly squander vast sums of money on cars when there isn't really a *need* for it.

Cedrus

A big issue for short journey drivers is the Diesel Particulate filter, with short journeys or slow commuting speeds, the DPF doesn't get hot enough to burn clean and can be an expensive repair.
You could have low annual mileage but if a REGULAR part of that is a fast motorway / dual carriageway blatt, the DPF shouldn't be an issue.
If you're an inner city commuter or just chuntering around locally, the DPF will catch you out, usually in the winter.

Cedrus

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Y
Waste of money in my opinion and I've no time for cars beyond them being a necessary implement for getting from a to b. I think many people wantonly squander vast sums of money on cars when there isn't really a *need* for it.

Over and above the necessary*, cars are just a hobby. A bloody expensive hobby.

* Everyone's "necessary" is different (but a lot of people are still codding themselves).

Sleeper12

TheBoyConor wrote:

You wouldn't be able to. I don't sell my cars. I drive them into the ground until they are unsalable, un NCTable, and sometimes undrivable. Then I scrap them. I never spent more than e1,100 on a car. Waste of money in my opinion and I've no time for cars beyond them being a necessary implement for getting from a to b. I think many people wantonly squander vast sums of money on cars when there isn't really a *need* for it.

No service for 3 years I do expect them to be driven to the ground.

I buy vehicles because I need them. They don't have to be pretty but they have to start each morning. My Business could be down hundreds or more if my van fails to start. It wouldn't matter if it was petrol or diesel but I would service it regularly. I couldn't take a chance on a thousand euro vehicle. As I said I could be down hundreds if it failed to start one morning or broke down during the day. Some people pay more than you because they need reliably not necessarily because they want a bit of flash. Spending 1000 or less on a vehicle would be throwing good money away for my business situation.

I'm not saying that your setup does not suit you but it's cheaper for me to spend more on a reliable vehicle. Each to their own

I definitely think op should be looking for advice from a mechanic

TheBoyConor

I get you sleeper. That's true.

Just so happens that a bangernomics car suits my needs. If it were to break down it would be an inconvenience for me rather than a show stopper. I don't need it for work or to commute, I don't have kids to ferry about. It's purely social and domestic use.

However, despite 3 years of neglect and downright abuse it has never failed me save for failing to start due to a knackered battery, which is a consumable item anyway. It is, by all accounts, running like a clock. I suspect rust or uninsurability will claim it before a neglect induced mechanical fault does. To me, that sort of robustness in the face of abusive treatment is what I see as quality and value in a car, not gizmos or soft touch plastics.

It's like a Soviet T34 tank - could be shot to **** n thrown off a cliff and would keep on going.

Even if it does calf tomorrow, I'll still have saved probably half of what it cost me or more by not bothering to service it.

Sleeper12

Cedrus wrote: »

A big issue for short journey drivers is the Diesel Particulate filter, with short journeys or slow commuting speeds, the DPF doesn't get hot enough to burn clean and can be an expensive repair.
You could have low annual mileage but if a REGULAR part of that is a fast motorway / dual carriageway blatt, the DPF shouldn't be an issue.
If you're an inner city commuter or just chuntering around locally, the DPF will catch you out, usually in the winter.

I don't believe this to be a big issue. My filter self cleans after a minute or two of being on the M50. I can't imagine too many people not having a four of five mile run at 50mph every few weeks or so.


Job done

demello

Thanks for all the replies.
Plenty of food for thought

G

Captcha

TheBoyConor wrote: »

I get you sleeper. That's true.

Just so happens that a bangernomics car suits my needs. If it were to break down it would be an inconvenience for me rather than a show stopper. I don't need it for work or to commute, I don't have kids to ferry about. It's purely social and domestic use.

However, despite 3 years of neglect and downright abuse it has never failed me save for failing to start due to a knackered battery, which is a consumable item anyway. It is, by all accounts, running like a clock. I suspect rust or uninsurability will claim it before a neglect induced mechanical fault does. To me, that sort of robustness in the face of abusive treatment is what I see as quality and value in a car, not gizmos or soft touch plastics.

It's like a Soviet T34 tank - could be shot to **** n thrown off a cliff and would keep on going.

Even if it does calf tomorrow, I'll still have saved probably half of what it cost me or more by not bothering to service it.

Yeah your dirty poison smoke and fumes that come out the back killing people doesn't matter either I suppose when you can save a few hundreds euros.

Cop on and change you oil at least. Stop killing the children.

TheBoyConor

Whisht will you! What are your talking about?

My car has always passed the NCT including the emissions tests. So I don't know what you're talking about my car belching smoke and killing children.

The one time it failed the NCT was because the reversing light bulb was blown. New bulb fitted 15 minutes late and it passed.

akelly02

Dakota Dan wrote: »

Any diesel car I had were done at around 120k miles, I’ve two petrol cars now with over 200k miles on them and still going strong. I reckon the people trumpeting diesels are buying new and trading before they hit 100k miles.

i have a saab 93 with 310 k kilometres on it....still going strong touch wood

lovely car to drive

Turbohymac

Diesel all the way but as for a few of the previous posters mentioning about servicing up to and beyond 30k.. well take it from a mechanic that's simply manufacturers trying to hoodwink people into buying their vehicle compared to some other brand. Anything past 20k kilometers in a diesel car or van and the 4 or 5 litres of oil has lost its lubrication and is simply past it..regardless of what modern manufacturers say I still change at 15k the oil and filter will be thousands cheaper than what it will cost when engine /turbo etc blows prematurely due to lack of adequate servicing

Mooooo

OP it depends on how long your journeys are, as opposed to your total mileage. Everything you read online will have something falling apart. Whatever you get service it every year minimum and you should be fine

ford2600

TheBoyConor wrote: »

That adds up to a big enough cost over time.

I used spec of oil recommended by manufacturer; currently MB229.51, previously VW507.01 (I think).

The cost is about €10 for filter and €5/L (€20-€30 for oil). €40 tops for service with quality parts. Oil changed at 10k-15k depending on car. Small cost of car ownership. I'd be surprised if engines would have been as trouble free even if I extended interval. IME new oil in a diesel in black gloop the minute you turn engine.

That system has allowed me to put over 500k on a B5 passat, 320k on a BXE Octavia.(and both still perfect)


Any problems I've had with cars are unrelated to fuel; suspension parts, electronic issues etc etc

The difficulty with buying diesel 2nd hand here is most people don't take care of them, potter around in them and then blame the fuel/engine with their egr/dpf etc gives trouble.


For that reason primarily OP should be looking for a nice well cared petrol car