How to Express our Displeasure with Politicians & Media

Kivaro

After waking up this morning to the wonderful news that Fine Gael and Regina Doherty wants to increase our PRSI contributions in order to pay for welfare benefits, I decided to contact the TD and the Fine Geal party in order to express my displeasure.

In a week when the Department of Social Protection declared that the country is overly dependent on social welfare payments, and when we get the news that an unemployed mother of seven can receive over €54,000 in tax-free benefits, Regina Doherty decides to announce this plan.

TD Doherty's email address is here: regina.doherty@oir.ie
Other contact information for her is here.
And the Fine Gael party can be contacted here: finegael@finegael.ie

To date, there are 345 'likes' on the first post of the Margaret Cash thread.
If 345 people contacted various politicians, political parties, councillors, news sources, newspaper editors, advertisers etc. on a particular topic, then I can assure you that our displeasure would be heard.

In order to offset the very loud hysterical voices of the socialists/left parties, those of us who live in the real world need to be heard. If you do not voice your opinion, then we are complicit in the direction that the country is heading.

Disclaimer: When the vast majority express our displeasure with overly generous social welfare benefits, we are generally not talking about pensioners, people temporarily on the dole, and other deserving members of our society.

Outlaw Pete

buried

vicwatson

Two words - Regina Doherty

Idbatterim

Disclaimer: When the vast majority express our displeasure with overly generous social welfare benefits, we are generally not talking about pensioners, people temporarily on the dole, and other deserving members of our society.

The OAP shouldnt be increased, the most comfortable group in our society, its only relentlessly increased to buy votes. Then you have the others "haves" Margaret Ca$h and her ilk, doesnt have to work and with guaranteed income! How those populists f**ckers dare paint those on welfare as "vulnerable" in this country!

the core issue he is no competition, do you seen an option of a party that will look after the tax payer here? that is precisely why they can get away with this ****!

_Brian

Vote, get your friends out to vote, this is how we show displeasure to politicians, emails and letters rarely make it to them but rather filtered through by secretaries.

The bigger problem is the growing entitlement brigade, they are growing in force and numbers and politicians are listening to them as a voting block. So free houses - SW increases and more taxes on tue worker will be common no matter who is in power.

dxhound2005

Kivaro wrote: »

Disclaimer: When the vast majority express our displeasure with overly generous social welfare benefits, we are generally not talking about pensioners, people temporarily on the dole, and other deserving members of our society.

Pensioners are richer now than working people. Is it OK to say that?

tayto lover

So much for the man who gets out of bed early to go to work. The fool.

_Brian

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Pensioners are richer now than working people. Is it OK to say that?

But it’s not always true.
My mum is a lone pensioner and isn’t well off, budgeting right and dig ours from kids to keep her going.

Jimbob1977

Vote in a general election

The best way to shake things up (not always for the best)

tayto lover

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Pensioners are richer now than working people. Is it OK to say that?

Pensioners are mainly people who worked all their lives and paid taxes.
Do you think they don't deserve it?

duffman13

_Brian wrote: »

Vote, get your friends out to vote, this is how we show displeasure to politicians, emails and letters rarely make it to them but rather filtered through by secretaries.

The bigger problem is the growing entitlement brigade, they are growing in force and numbers and politicians are listening to them as a voting block. So free houses - SW increases and more taxes on tue worker will be common no matter who is in power.

Can I ask a question and not particularly aimed at you but who do we vote for? All the established parties are afraid to upset the social media and bleeding heart brigade. I'd happily vote for some party who gives us progressive policies and looking at making wholesale changes to our country, but at this point in time there is no party with the political courage to do this.

The alternative is to vote for some of these socialist parties who are tbh well intentioned but would lead us on the road to ruin. These guys are clueless and offer nothing but what they deem to be popular amongst there base of supporters

Fann Linn

Jimbob1977 wrote: »

Vote in a general election

The best way to shake things up (not always for the best)

That right vote.
Vote for FG, they'll look after us.
Vote for Regina Doherty FG, she'll look after us.

Yeh, right.

dxhound2005

tayto lover wrote: »

Pensioners are mainly people who worked all their lives and paid taxes.
Do you think they don't deserve it?

The taxes they paid were to fund the current expenditure, not to fund their retirement. The working population of the present are doing that.

It is unsustainable with far more retired in the population to be supported by fewer workers in the future.

Nermal

The best way to show your displeasure to both groups is to deprive them of money.

Block ads. Don't pay for media. Minimise, avoid and if you safely can, evade taxes. Starve the beast.

_Brian

duffman13 wrote: »

Can I ask a question and not particularly aimed at you but who do we vote for? All the established parties are afraid to upset the social media and bleeding heart brigade. I'd happily vote for some party who gives us progressive policies and looking at making wholesale changes to our country, but at this point in time there is no party with the political courage to do this.

The alternative is to vote for some of these socialist parties who are tbh well intentioned but would lead us on the road to ruin. These guys are clueless and offer nothing but what they deem to be popular amongst there base of supporters

THAT was my point.
Our immediate and medium term future will see pandering to the entitlement brigade as they now seem to have great numbers and sway with politicians and media.

Increases in SW and taxes are on the cards.

dav3

Yes! Another angry letter, keep them coming.

If you could just get the poor, the homeless, the old and the disabled to pay more, there'll be more money for you.

Idbatterim

Vote, get your friends out to vote, this is how we show displeasure to politicians, emails and letters rarely make it to them but rather filtered through by secretaries.

The bigger problem is the growing entitlement brigade, they are growing in force and numbers and politicians are listening to them as a voting block. So free houses - SW increases and more taxes on tue worker will be common no matter who is in power.

delusional, all of it! Many comments have also said the same thing "get out and vote" when every party here is left of centre, except Renua (who many dont deem a viable option) I am sorry, get out and vote for WHO?

there needs to be a push back from the public against this bull**** for a start, i.e. against those supporting and enabling the current system. Getting out and "voting" LOL , its too late at that stage, if there isnt a push back of some sort. Of course the ideal thing to happen, would be something entirely radical for this country, i.e. a party sets up that puts the taxpayer first! I reckon thats off the agenda, even though any such party would currently have an open goal!

tayto lover

dxhound2005 wrote: »

The taxes they paid were to fund the current expenditure, not to fund their retirement. The working population of the present are doing that.

It is unsustainable with far more retired in the population to be supported by fewer workers in the future.

You haven't given a solution.
These same pensioners paid their taxes for all their working lives and as such contributed to their pensions.
It's the never worked/won't work you need to target.

ChikiChiki

Kivaro wrote: »

After waking up this morning to the wonderful news that Fine Gael and Regina Doherty wants to increase our PRSI contributions in order to pay for welfare benefits, I decided to contact the TD and the Fine Geal party in order to express my displeasure.

In a week when the Department of Social Protection declared that the country is overly dependent on social welfare payments, and when we get the news that an unemployed mother of seven can receive over €54,000 in tax-free benefits, Regina Doherty decides to announce this plan.

TD Doherty's email address is here: regina.doherty@oir.ie
Other contact information for her is here.
And the Fine Gael party can be contacted here: finegael@finegael.ie

To date, there are 345 'likes' on the first post of the Margaret Cash thread.
If 345 people contacted various politicians, political parties, councillors, news sources, newspaper editors, advertisers etc. on a particular topic, then I can assure you that our displeasure would be heard.

In order to offset the very loud hysterical voices of the socialists/left parties, those of us who live in the real world need to be heard. If you do not voice your opinion, then we are complicit in the direction that the country is heading.

Disclaimer: When the vast majority express our displeasure with overly generous social welfare benefits, we are generally not talking about pensioners, people temporarily on the dole, and other deserving members of our society.

Email sent. In fairness I always do to get it off my chest. Sometimes a reply or phone call comes out of it.

scamalert

yeah spam some email while getting stick in the a$$ deeper each day, none prob will be read funny ones will be sent round the office - usual outcome.

Wheety

I'll give them an email later.

Idbatterim

Increases in SW and taxes are on the cards.

not necessarily, they are probably doing the usual kite flying, to see what the public reaction is. I cant see how when things are meant to be booming, that tax hikes, in a possible election budget, will be a runner.

So they talk about tax hikes, it doesnt happen, they throw a few cent back at you and the workers are relieved. "that budget wasnt that bad" sound familiar?

there should be tax hikes alright though, on diesel, new rates of tax on vehicles, diesel hiked significantly. LPT whacked up, VAT on hospitality (the reduced rate has cost of 2.7 billion and should have been ended long ago - indeed I think they state should have had a claw back mechanism, i.e. help them out when they were in the ****ter and then they pay back a bit extra on top of the "normal " rate, when things returned to "normal" , now they are creaming it in again!

Those receiving housing from the state for a pittance, paid for by the free money they get, they are another group of pisstakers. Where do you even begin here?

ChikiChiki

Jimbob1977 wrote: »

Vote in a general election

The best way to shake things up (not always for the best)

60000 people standing at the gates of Leinster House would nip any ideas of increases quickly in the bud and refocus the minds inside. You can be guaranteed. Our Govt is creating an absolute monster here. They need to be more imaginative.

Voting only results in more of FG and FF and more of the usual. Honestly with our political spectrum, voting is near ineffective. It still needs to be done but is thoroughly useless.

dxhound2005

tayto lover wrote: »

You haven't given a solution.
These same pensioners paid their taxes for all their working lives and as such contributed to their pensions.
It's the never worked/won't work you need to target.

How many years does this so called pension contribution fund? Some pensioners will be drawing on it for 30 years or more. And getting free travel and TV licence and more.

Idbatterim

tayto lover wrote: »

You haven't given a solution.
These same pensioners paid their taxes for all their working lives and as such contributed to their pensions.
It's the never worked/won't work you need to target.

I dont buy that. If you paid into a pension scheme, you would want it to reflect what you paid into it? The pension that many of them are getting, taken into account inflation and their contribution, is a staggering multiple of anything they ever paid in most likely...

Youre right about the wont workers! There are now so many jobs FG tell us, why would you hike JSA or JSB?

dxhound2005

Idbatterim wrote: »

I dont buy that. If you paid into a pension scheme, you would want it to reflect what you paid into it? The pension that many of them are getting, taken into account inflation and their contribution, is a staggering multiple of anything they ever paid in most likely...

Youre right about the wont workers! There are now so many jobs FG tell us, why would you hike JSA or JSB?

No point in making employers take on people who can't work. Somewhere around 4% to 6% jobless rate is regarded as full employment.

tayto lover

dxhound2005 wrote: »

How many years does this so called pension contribution fund? Some pensioners will be drawing on it for 30 years or more. And getting free travel and TV licence and more.

All guff but no solution.

Idbatterim

dxhound2005 wrote: »

No point in making employers take on people who can't work. Somewhere around 4% to 6% jobless rate is regarded as full employment.

I dont think its right to completely give up on those people the way the Irish state does. But if they are truly "unemployable" enjoy living on less than a E100 a week, the norm in other european states...

GarIT

At the moment I'm 100% against our welfare system. I'd be happy to support it if was reduced over time I'd even recommend increases over time while not claiming it. The current situation is unsustainable, although maybe it is sustainable, decent working people could support scroungers for their whole lives but it's sickening to have to do it.

We need a system with something like at 18 everyone starts on a rate of €100 per week if they need to claim it. Every year you spend claiming it goes down by 10% to a minimum of €50. Every year you spend working it goes up by €10.

I think free pensions from the state should be abolished (over a long term, maybe for people born from 2020 on or something like that). And we should have mandatory pension contributions in place of USC. If you don't have enough to retire on built up in your mandatory pension you simply don't retire, you can work or stay on the dole.

animaal

Our form of democracy, with Proportional Representation, facilitates coalitions. If the only parties in power are Centre and Left parties, then government policy will always be left-leaning.

If we had a combination of Left and Right in power, we'd be more likely to have balanced policy. Or even if we had centre/left and centre/right coalitions over the years, we'd see some policy swings, but a more balanced centre situation in the long run.

But the Irish continually reject right-leaning parties. The PDs ran out of support in 2009. Renua never got off the ground because people felt stronger about the stance of some of the party's members on abortion than about the party's economic policies.

The result is the situation we have today. If there's a block of people who don't feel represented today, it's because that block of people didn't vote in their own economic interests.

SEPT 23 1989

we need an alternative to vote for

dxhound2005

Idbatterim wrote: »

I dont think its right to completely give up on those people the way the Irish state does. But if they are truly "unemployable" enjoy living on less than a E100 a week, the norm in other european states...

There are plenty of makework schemes and back to education schemes. But nobody can be forced to join in. Even when hundreds of thousand of workers were coming here to fill vacancies, the lowest the jobless rate went was 4.1%. That is a close as anyone can get to full employment.

The dole for 18 to 24 year olds is €107.70.

dav3

It's amazing how some people (mostly non-Irish) are out of touch with the Irish people. It's amazing how little they know about Irish politics and Irish history.

Every decision on the tax you pay, the welfare budget, spending on health, spending on education, etc, have been made by right-wing governments. Looking at the polls, the next general election will probably result in another right-wing government. Why are some people having trouble accepting this?

Kivaro

GarIT wrote: »

I think free pensions from the state should be abolished (over a long term, maybe for people born from 2020 on or something like that). And we should have mandatory pension contributions in place of USC. If you don't have enough to retire on built up in your mandatory pension you simply don't retire, you can work or stay on the dole.

Our current free pensions for everyone is also not sustainable.
If you look at older family members of refugees who are allowed into the country under the Government's reunification scheme, then all of those will be entitled to the non-contributory pension if they are old enough.
I just don't understand that. I certainly did not vote for it.

There was a post on a thread recently where it documented a housing/homeless agency complaining about the refugee reunification program. They were housing one particular refugee, which turned into 9 when all of his older relatives arrived from Africa under the reunification program. And then they had to house all of them. For those of them above 66, they get the €232.00 per week non-contributory pension. Is that fair?

I think it is insane.

animaal

dav3 wrote: »

Every decision on the tax you pay, the welfare budget, spending on health, spending on education, etc, have been made by right-wing governments. Looking at the polls, the next general election will probably result in another right-wing government. Why are some people having trouble accepting this?

It depends on how you define "left" and "right". Compared with People Before Profit, parties like FG, FF and Labour are to the right

We really don't have a right-wing party, compared to countries like UK, USA, France, Germany, Italy. What we have are left-wing and centre parties.

Edit: just to add - we currently have a 52% marginal rate of income tax with a very low point of entry on the middle classes, and I don't know of any other country with such generous social welfare benefits. I'm not sure how thee can be described as the actions of a right-wing government.

One eyed Jack

Kivaro wrote: »

Disclaimer: When the vast majority express our displeasure with overly generous social welfare benefits, we are generally not talking about pensioners, people temporarily on the dole, and other deserving members of our society.

I have a question.

Who gets to decide who is or isn’t a ‘deserving member of society’?

Already in this thread there are disagreements over who is or isn’t a ‘deserving member of society’, and what if I disagree with whom you consider doesn’t deserve the protection of society?

I’d simply laugh at the suggestion that I’m a lefty progressive liberal on the basis that I don’t agree with your ideas for who deserves the protection of society and who doesn’t. You couldn’t be more wrong.

All that will happen is your ideas will get to a stage where people will be filled with bitterness towards other people who they believe are getting more than them, and that thought process usually develops into everyone else in society is getting more than them, so you’ll just end up with people turning on each other rather than supporting each other, because your aims are simply too broad to be in any way realistically implemented.

GarIT

dxhound2005 wrote: »

There are plenty of makework schemes and back to education schemes. But nobody can be forced to join in. Even when hundreds of thousand of workers were coming here to fill vacancies, the lowest the jobless rate went was 4.1%. That is a close as anyone can get to full employment.

The dole for 18 to 24 year olds is €107.70.

18 to 25, and 25 to 26 is ~€150

It's simply age discrimination. I've heard both "old people probably paid more tax" then base it on tax not age and "younger people are probably living with their parents" then base it on whether or not you are living with your parents. At 18 it is no more your parents responsibility to support you then it is the states. You should get the same rate as everyone else if the only basis is age.

One of the most disgraceful things is that students can't get the dole, you can leave school at 18 and sit on your arse getting €100 a week or go to college and get nothing it's ridiculous.

GarIT

Kivaro wrote: »

Our current free pensions for everyone is also not sustainable.
If you look at older family members of refugees who are allowed into the country under the Government's reunification scheme, then all of those will be entitled to the non-contributory pension if they are old enough.
I just don't understand that. I certainly did not vote for it.

There was a post on a thread recently where it documented a housing/homeless agency complaining about the refugee reunification program. They were housing one particular refugee, which turned into 9 when all of his older relatives arrived from Africa under the reunification program. And then they had to house all of them. For those of them above 66, they get the €232.00 per week non-contributory pension. Is that fair?

I think it is insane.

That's why we need to abolish state pensions.

GarIT

On the other hand to everything I've said I think we need to seriously up money for disabled people. They actually have more expenses than us. Every severely disabled person should receive the median wage.

animaal

GarIT wrote: »

That's why we need to abolish state pensions.

That's a more difficult one. What should we then do with somebody of pensionable age, who doesn't have an income?

What governments have done over the years is reduce the contributory pension until it is almost worth the same as the non-contributory pension. It's almost like abolishing the concept of a contributory pension. In fact, a person can work for much of their lives and contribute PRSI, but be entitled to a smaller contributory pension than the non-contributory pension.

dxhound2005

animaal wrote: »

That's a more difficult one. What should we then do with somebody of pensionable age, who doesn't have an income?

What governments have done over the years is reduce the contributory pension until it is almost worth the same as the non-contributory pension. It's almost like abolishing the concept of a contributory pension. In fact, a person can work for much of their lives and contribute PRSI, but be entitled to a smaller contributory pension than the non-contributory pension.

It has to be funded from the taxes of the working population. PRSI is a social insurance fund. For a while now and increasingly into the future, this model cannot be sustained.

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2018-02-13/650/

In 1997, expenditure on state pensions was IR£1.35 billion. However, by 2017 the cost of state pensions had increased to €7.27 billion. After adjusting for inflation, the cost had nearly trebled in real terms over a period of just 20 years, despite reforms made in that time. As the Actuarial Review the Deputy refers to pointed out, despite increases in the State pension age legislated for in 2021 and 2028, the ratio of workers to pensioners is projected to decline from 4.9 in 2015, to 2.9 in 2035, and to 2.0 by 2055.

Fann Linn

GarIT wrote: »

On the other hand to everything I've said I think we need to seriously up money for disabled people. They actually have more expenses than us. Every severely disabled person should receive the median wage.

Is that physically or mentally disabled. Just think of the auld kids with the adhd and on the spectrum.

GarIT

animaal wrote: »

That's a more difficult one. What should we then do with somebody of pensionable age, who doesn't have an income?

What governments have done over the years is reduce the contributory pension until it is almost worth the same as the non-contributory pension. It's almost like abolishing the concept of a contributory pension. In fact, a person can work for much of their lives and contribute PRSI, but be entitled to a smaller contributory pension than the non-contributory pension.

It would involve abolishing the idea of pensionable age, you keep working until you have funds to fund your own retirement. Even at minimum wage you can work up a reasonable pension if you start young. If you're unemployed you go on unemployment benefit like anyone else. With mandatory pension contributions there wouldn't be many people without a pension by 65 unless they spent their lives avoiding working.

Fann Linn wrote: »

Is that physically or mentally disabled. Just think of the auld kids with the adhd and on the spectrum.

I specifically said severely disabled for those cases. If something eliminates you from working in any type of job or at least has a significant impact on it you should get a decent wage from the state.

animaal

GarIT wrote: »

It would involve abolishing the idea of pensionable age, you keep working until you have funds to fund your own retirement. Even at minimum wage you can work up a reasonable pension if you start young. If you're unemployed you go on unemployment benefit like anyone else. With mandatory pension contributions there wouldn't be many people without a pension by 65 unless they spent their lives avoiding working.

The idea is interesting, but I think in practice it would have minimal impact on the status quo.

Anybody whose work is in any way physical already finds that as they get older, it becomes impossible to keep up. They'd wind up on the dole instead of the pension. Of course, anybody who has never worked will continue to never work. And many of the others would find that, come 66 years of age, they will find some medical condition that prevents them from working.

If you look at today, there is a gap between people retiring at 65 and the age for the state pension. Those people wind up on the dole until the state pension kicks in.

I think for the idea to work, any change to the state pension would have to be accompanied by a change to the dole, otherwise people can just move from one to the other.

Some other countries work a proper "social insurance" system, where the base benefits are quite modest, but the more you pay in over the years, the greater the benefit you claim later. That is different to what we have here, which is basically a tax. Regardless of how little or much you pay in, everybody gets the same.

Corb_lund

What would help is a legitimate (not frothing racists) right wing party that people could vote for without having to hold their nose.

This would bring a lot of balance into the equation. At the moment most parties have a cigarette paper difference..

Ursus Horribilis

Yes. If they thought they'd lose votes they'd change their tune. The water protests proved that. Sadly, taxing the squeezed middle doesn't appear to be as dastardly as water charges.

DebDynamite

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Who gets to decide who is or isn’t a ‘deserving member of society’?

Already in this thread there are disagreements over who is or isn’t a ‘deserving member of society’, and what if I disagree with whom you consider doesn’t deserve the protection of society?.

Anybody who is able to work, but not willing should not be deserving. People should be deemed not medically fit for work by an independent physician.

AndrewJRenko

Kivaro wrote: »

In a week when the Department of Social Protection declared that the country is overly dependent on social welfare payments, and when we get the news that an unemployed mother of seven can receive over €54,000 in tax-free benefits, Regina Doherty decides to announce this plan.

TD Doherty's email address is here: regina.doherty@oir.ie
Other contact information for her is here.
And the Fine Gael party can be contacted here: finegael@finegael.ie

In order to offset the very loud hysterical voices of the socialists/left parties, those of us who live in the real world need to be heard. If you do not voice your opinion, then we are complicit in the direction that the country is heading.

Thanks for the contact details. Is it OK with you if the 'loud hysterical voices of the socialist left parties' who (funnily enough) live in the exact same world as you and I also use those same contact details to support positive improvements in the welfare system?

Nermal wrote: »

The best way to show your displeasure to both groups is to deprive them of money.

Block ads. Don't pay for media. Minimise, avoid and if you safely can, evade taxes. Starve the beast.

I thought the reverse was the case - to deprive them of money, you should actually engage with the adverts. They're usually on a pay-per-click model, so the more you engage, the more it costs them, no?

Idbatterim wrote: »

I dont buy that. If you paid into a pension scheme, you would want it to reflect what you paid into it? The pension that many of them are getting, taken into account inflation and their contribution, is a staggering multiple of anything they ever paid in most likely...

Those workers signed a contract of employment with their employer for an overall package that included salary and pension. Are you suggesting now that the Government should renege on signed contracts, because they don't meet your own personal view?

animaal wrote: »

It depends on how you define "left" and "right". Compared with People Before Profit, parties like FG, FF and Labour are to the right

We really don't have a right-wing party, compared to countries like UK, USA, France, Germany, Italy. What we have are left-wing and centre parties.

Corb_lund wrote: »

What would help is a legitimate (not frothing racists) right wing party that people could vote for without having to hold their nose.

We tried that before. It didn't work out.

pjohnson

Fann Linn wrote: »

Is that physically or mentally disabled. Just think of the auld kids with the adhd and on the spectrum.

And they should be excluded because?

AndrewJRenko

DebDynamite wrote: »

Anybody who is able to work, but not willing should not be deserving. People should be deemed not medically fit for work by an independent physician.

Now there's a novel idea. If only someone had thought of it before;


http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/social_welfare_payments/disability_and_illness/disability_allowance.html