Jury decides roundup causes cancer

20silkcut

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/business/2018/aug/10/monsanto-trial-cancer-dewayne-johnson-ruling


This guy was only working with roundup for two years. Jaysus I know lads spraying it for 40 years industrial amounts and the mist blowing in the back window of the tractor

Will you stay using it ? Will you be allowed use it? Is this the end of roundup? Sure what are the alternatives? Can’t control weeds without it. May dust off the rake and the hoe and oil up the garden shears.

_Brian

I think the key in this case was extreme exposure.
This guy seemed to be using it daily or at least a few times a week with minimal protection.
I was surprised that the board of education wasn’t cited as well for failing to provide a safe workplace, but I guess they followed the real money trail and it’s easy to get a jury to dislike a conglomerate.

Monsanto have been very clever in
Muddying the water regarding its safety, it really is a who knows now and in the realm of such confusion I think we will see a swing away from its use, probably no harm, I’d imagine this judgment will be contested and drawn out and that guy won’t see a penny while he lives.

TooOldBoots

Farmers have become too reliant on it. If you have to keep using it as a control then it would be better to find a solution to the problem

20silkcut

_Brian wrote: »

I think the key in this case was extreme exposure.
This guy seemed to be using it daily or at least a few times a week with minimal protection.
I was surprised that the board of education wasn’t cited as well for failing to provide a safe workplace, but I guess they followed the real money trail and it’s easy to get a jury to dislike a conglomerate.

Monsanto have been very clever in
Muddying the water regarding its safety, it really is a who knows now and in the realm of such confusion I think we will see a swing away from its use, probably no harm, I’d imagine this judgment will be contested and drawn out and that guy won’t see a penny while he lives.

I’d say there is a lot more than just this guy behind this. How would a groundskeeper in a school be able to access internal emails and documentation in Monsanto and use them in a court case. It looks like Monsanto have met their match whoever it is.

patsy_mccabe

The key here is the "Jury" part. Jurors not scientists.
There was a similar case recently with Talc Powder.
If they were to ban RoundUp , what would the implications be for food production? How do you control weeds in a 100 acre field without It?

20silkcut

TooOldBoots wrote: »

Farmers have become too reliant on it. If you have to keep using it as a control then it would be better to find a solution to the problem

Whatever about livestock farmers and domestic users its the tillage men who will be seriously affected by the loss of round up.

elperello

20silkcut wrote: »

I’d say there is a lot more than just this guy behind this. How would a groundskeeper in a school be able to access internal emails and documentation in Monsanto and use them in a court case. It looks like Monsanto have met their match whoever it is.

Good lawyer.

20silkcut

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

The key here is the "Jury" part. Jurors not scientists.
There was a similar case recently withTalc Powder.
If they were to ban RoundUp , what would the implications be for food production. How do you control weeds in a 100 acre field without It?

It does set a serious precedent with another 4000 cases in the pipeline.

Farmer

I think it will get overturned by appeal. Monsanto will throw all they have at it. There was no H&S - soraying on windy days, faulty equipment etc. If it was here, it would have been his employer that he would have sued

elperello

Here he is, give him a call!
https://www.baumhedlundlaw.com/attorneys/r-brent-wisner/

Say my name

Lucky for the former owners of Monsanto that it was sold off a few months ago to Bayer.
It's Bayer's problem now.

Some allotment holders use the vinegar, salt and eco friendly washing up liquid solution if they have to kill weeds by spraying otherwise it's tillage to kill the weeds.
Burning with fire works too.:D

BorneTobyWilde

TooOldBoots wrote: »

Farmers have become too reliant on it. If you have to keep using it as a control then it would be better to find a solution to the problem

I don't get it. Is roundup sprayed on crops? Does it not kill crops? It only kills weeds, but crops love it?
I thought it killed everything it touched.?

Waffletraktor

It's America, the most litigious country about. There was a similar case involving talcum powder recently.

my3cents

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

I don't get it. Is roundup sprayed on crops? Does it not kill crops? It only kills weeds, but crops love it?
I thought it killed everything it touched.?

The idea of some of the GM crops is that they have been "created" to be tolerant of Roundup.

Nekarsulm

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

I don't get it. Is roundup sprayed on crops? Does it not kill crops? It only kills weeds, but crops love it?
I thought it killed everything it touched.?

The thing about Roundup is that it is translocated to the root of whatever plant it is sprayed on.
So it is used in some cases to kill off the plants before harvest, and also kill off needs growing among the crop.
Then you can plough/till the ground straight away after harvest without waiting 2 weeks for spraying to take place, and the weeds to start to die.
As its translocated, nó roundup is present in the combinable crop.
That the theory anyway.
As harvest is so early this year, I wouldnt think any crop was sprayed.

Gawddawggonnit

Nekarsulm wrote: »

As its translocated, nó roundup is present in the combinable crop.
That the theory anyway.

Incorrect Nek.
Yes there’s glyphosate present in the crop that’s been desiccated pre-harvest, unfortunately.

It’s illegal here to desiccate with any desiccant pre-harvest, and rightfully so.

bogman_bass

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

I don't get it. Is roundup sprayed on crops? Does it not kill crops? It only kills weeds, but crops love it?
I thought it killed everything it touched.?

It’s in America where they have genetically modified maize and soya to be resistant to it

Nekarsulm

Gawddawggonnit wrote: »

Incorrect Nek.
Yes there’s glyphosate present in the crop that’s been desiccated pre-harvest, unfortunately.

It’s illegal here to desiccate with any desiccant pre-harvest, and rightfully so.

Thanks for that, it always seemed a bit of a streatch of the imagination that nó trace would be found in the grain!
I suppose Monsanto's recommendation that treated crops not be used for seed makes sense.

Tar.Aldarion

AFAIK the levels left in food are supposed to be fine however occupationally it could be dangerous as it's a class 2A carcinogen (Probably carcinogenic).

Rechuchote

Interesting article in the Guardian about "gluten-free" and its reasons, including some stuff about glyphosates:

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2018/aug/07/not-just-a-fad-the-surprising-gut-wrenching-truth-about-gluten

For a start, the wheat we are eating has been bred, largely at the behest of industrial bakeries and food manufacturers, to have higher levels of stronger gluten. (The more gluten, the fluffier and more voluminous your loaf.) In the UK, the oldest modern bread wheat cultivar we grow is Maris Widgeon, which dates back to 1964; the rest were developed in the late 20th and early 21st centuries for higher yield and higher gluten. These cultivars are not what our ancestors ate. What other unintended mutations might this breeding have caused in these varieties, and what effects might they have on the people who eat them?

Our great-grandparents’ grain was not sprayed with pesticides, either. These days, it is common practice among non-organic farmers to spray their wheat on days before harvest with the controversial pesticide glyphosate, to dry off the crop for processing. The classifies it as a probable human carcinogen. Debate rages about the long-term safety of these pesticides and possible effects on human health, especially when deployed so close to harvesting.

In the factory, heavily automated bakery conglomerates have stripped out most of the time, human effort and craftsmanship from the bread-making process, replacing traditional methods with a chemistry set of additives and undisclosed processing aids, notably enzymes synthesised in the laboratory.

(Interesting that using insecticides as dessicants is forbidden in Ireland - never knew that. But I don't know either where the wheat comes from that goes into my daily loaf. Or rather my used-to-be daily loaf; nowadays our family eat organic brown rice and hardly ever bread.)

Almost all those huge jury awards get overthrown or dramatically reduced on appeal. In many cases all they end up with is lawyers costs and go away money.
There is no acceptable evidence that either roundup or talc is carcinogenic, but there is enough greyness to enable a good lawyer to convince a sympathetic jury to come down of the side of an unfortunate client who is dying.

Rechuchote

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/21/catastrophe-as-frances-bird-population-collapses-due-to-pesticides

'Catastrophe' as France's bird population collapses due to pesticides
Bird populations across the French countryside have fallen by a third over the last decade and a half, researchers have said.

Dozens of species have seen their numbers decline, in some cases by two-thirds, the scientists said in a pair of studies – one national in scope and the other covering a large agricultural region in central France.

“The situation is catastrophic,” said Benoit Fontaine, a conservation biologist at France’s National Museum of Natural History and co-author of one of the studies.

<snip>

The museum described the pace and extent of the wipe-out as “a level approaching an ecological catastrophe”.

The primary culprit, researchers speculate, is the intensive use of pesticides on vast tracts of monoculture crops, especially wheat and corn.

The problem is not that birds are being poisoned, but that the insects on which they depend for food have disappeared.

<snip>

Recent research, he noted, has uncovered similar trends across Europe, estimating that flying insects have declined by 80%, and bird populations has dropped by more than 400m in 30 years.

Despite a government plan to cut pesticide use in half by 2020, sales in France have climbed steadily, reaching more than 75,000 tonnes of active ingredient in 2014, according to European Union figures.

_Brian

I’m very sad that this guy has cancer.

But reading some of the information on his case makes it look like a slam dunk to be overthrown.

He would regularly spray and it was common that he would have large mists of product blowing back onto his face - now I don’t have a label to hand but I think it recommends to take precautions to avoid this.

In one incident a pipe burst and he was completely drenched in the product. Again the warnings say to avoid direct contact with skin and wash off immediately. It’s hard to see how Monsanto can be blamed because of an equipment failure.

I know roundup is bad stuff, hell Monsanto know it too, the packaging comes with a host of warnings about avoiding direct contact with the product - this isn’t to prevent it staining your clothes !!

Honestly everything I read on this case leads me to see this poor chap wasn’t trained on chemical use, wasn’t supplied with sufficient ppe, was supplied defective equipment and his employer had little to no safety procedures in place - his employers gave him a known dangerous chemical and placed him at risk by not looking after him - this isn’t Monsanto’s fault.

Misusing a dangerous chemical and then crying foul when things go wrong isn’t right either - they followed the money rather than the employer whom I feel is actually responsible for his excessive exposure to a known dangerous chemical.

Money talks !

Say my name

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Almost all those huge jury awards get overthrown or dramatically reduced on appeal. In many cases all they end up with is lawyers costs and go away money.
There is no acceptable evidence that either roundup or talc is carcinogenic, but there is enough greyness to enable a good lawyer to convince a sympathetic jury to come down of the side of an unfortunate client who is dying.

I see from other forums that the case with the talcum powder has similarities with this case in that it was brought against a "foreign" company.
Monsanto was bought over by the European Bayer this year.
Politics comes into the U.S. courts when it goes against Murica's businesses.

Bass Reeves

The presumption that it will be over turned is on the presumptions that H&S negligence out weighs Monsanto culability. Have only read bits of it but Monsanto was held to blame as they supposedly hid dangers associated with Roundup band got researchers to find for the safety of Roundup. Unless it is completely over turned the other 4k cases will continue and thousands more cases will emerge. Even at 1-2 million/ case it would cost a few billion. That would put Roundup and it's generic brands off the market.

If Roundup goes alot of GM bred soya and maize goes with it. Will that make food more expensive yes will it harm farming maybe not. It could turn the clock back and barley and wheat could be 400/ ton. It would end feedlot beef and grain produced milk. More expensive food would make farmers product more valuable even if there was less of it

Good loser

I think it most unlikely two years exposure to Roundup, or any reasonably low risk chemical, would cause this man's lymphoma.


From what I know about cancer it takes years of exposure to a hazard (such as cigarettes) to produce a clinical effect.


Also to connect one chemical to one illness, as here, does not seem credible statistically or mathematically.

cute geoge

Round up killed a fit and healthy local man here years ago ,he collapsed after spraying with out mask and it got into his system so it is leathal .Would it really surprise a lot of people that round up is related to the increase in cancer ,something has to be causing this increase .I heard lately was it that 1 in 3 will develop cancer at some stage in their life !!

charolais0153

Rechuchote wrote: »

Interesting article in the Guardian about "gluten-free" and its reasons, including some stuff about glyphosates:

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2018/aug/07/not-just-a-fad-the-surprising-gut-wrenching-truth-about-gluten



(Interesting that using insecticides as dessicants is forbidden in Ireland - never knew that. But I don't know either where the wheat comes from that goes into my daily loaf. Or rather my used-to-be daily loaf; nowadays our family eat organic brown rice and hardly ever bread.)

Its hardly a pesticide is it?

my3cents

charolais0153 wrote: »

Its hardly a pesticide is it?

Thats exactly what it is. Pesticide is used a lot as a term to describe both herbicide and pesticide.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pesticide

Pesticides are substances that are meant to control pests, including weeds

A more official definition here https://www.epa.gov/ingredients-used-pesticide-products/basic-information-about-pesticide-ingredients

my3cents

For anyone interested there is a massive amount of info on the trial posted by the law firm used by the plaintiff. Including links to the pictures and emails used in evidence.

https://www.baumhedlundlaw.com/toxic-tort-law/monsanto-roundup-lawsuit/dewayne-johnson-v-monsanto-company/

_Brian

cute geoge wrote: »

Round up killed a fit and healthy local man here years ago ,he collapsed after spraying with out mask and it got into his system so it is leathal .Would it really surprise a lot of people that round up is related to the increase in cancer ,something has to be causing this increase .I heard lately was it that 1 in 3 will develop cancer at some stage in their life !!

The statistics on “getting cancer” will most probably continue to increase as humans live longer, cancer is awfully common in old age as the replication of cells breaks down, it’s a natural thing to happen to older people. I’m not saying it’s nice or fair, but if more and more people live on into late 80’s then more of us will have cancer.

Citing a fit healthy “stupid” individual who administers themselves with a dangerous chemical by not following the instructions really gets us nowhere in the argument. There are plenty of household chemicals that if you inhale them directly you will be very sick at least.

What we need to understand from a farming perspective is given correct appropriate use of these products what are the risks.

As consumers we need to know how much residual chemical exists in food and at what level is this safe.


People are eating store prepared salad packs washed in chlorine products where they are injesring chlorine but fighting the government against treating drinking water to make it safe. But fighting salads isn’t as sexy as fighting a scary chemical and big conglomerate like Monsanto.

Upstream

Was there an article about this case on Agriland? I thought there was but I can't see it now...

Bass Reeves

charolais0153 wrote: »

Its hardly a pesticide is it?

It is not used as a pesticide as it kills plants but I be surprised if when spraying that a large amount of insects and bugs are not killed

tabby aspreme

Country Councils have stopped using Roundup on the strength of this judgement, according to Rte news.

Say my name

Watch Bayer's share price drop.

https://www.google.ie/search?q=bayer+share+price&oq=bayer+s&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j0l3.5869j0j7&client=ms-android-samsung&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8#mie=l,/m/0b7fwk4,Bayer%20AG,BAYN,ETR,Bayer%20AG%20(ADR),/m/0b7fwk4,0

blue5000

tabby aspreme wrote: »

Country Councils have stopped using Roundup on the strength of this judgement, according to Rte news.

I hope they spray all they have left on the Japanese knotgrass growing in their own yards first.

kupus

I was talking to an Austrian recently and when he was younger about 30 years ago, he would go to the disco on a sat night. He didnt drink so he was the driver. Every week without fail he would have to wash his car when he got to the city/town. THey were about 30 mins drive from nearest one.

It was filthy covered in dead insects and he needed to wash them off when he got there and when he got home later on in the night.

Nowadays he does the same route collecting kids, job, etc. His car is spotless.

waxmoth

Gawddawggonnit wrote: »

Incorrect Nek.
Yes there’s glyphosate present in the crop that’s been desiccated pre-harvest, unfortunately.

It’s illegal here to desiccate with any desiccant pre-harvest, and rightfully so.

It can still be used for pre harvest weed control?

How to determine when to spray for optimum weed clearance....

Below is a guide to help determine whether your crop is ready for pre harvest glyphosate.

• Pick 20 grains from the center of the ears.
• Press your thumbnail firmly into the grains.
• If the imprint of your thumbnail stays in all of the grains the crop is ready for spraying. (see image below)
• Applications will usually take place 10 to 14 days before harvesting of the crop.

https://www.glanbiaconnect.com/farm-management/detail/article/pre-harvest-weed-control

Rechuchote

charolais0153 wrote: »

Its hardly a pesticide is it?

Once again, the term pesticide includes weedkillers.

Glyphosate traces have been found in various foods ranging from bread to corn flakes to ice cream. Here's one statement by a worried company:

https://www.benjerry.com/about-us/media-center/glyphosate-statement

tabby aspreme

tabby aspreme wrote: »

Country Councils have stopped using Roundup on the strength of this judgement, according to Rte news.

If true, its nothing to do with the safety or otherwise of the product itself and everything to do with fear of the legal system.

my3cents

tabby aspreme wrote: »

Country Councils have stopped using Roundup on the strength of this judgement, according to Rte news.

So they are changing from a herbicide that they can't be a 100% sure has any ill effects on humans to ones that are know poisons or are they just using it as an excuse to spend less money on spraying?

_Brian

kupus wrote: »

I was talking to an Austrian recently and when he was younger about 30 years ago, he would go to the disco on a sat night. He didnt drink so he was the driver. Every week without fail he would have to wash his car when he got to the city/town. THey were about 30 mins drive from nearest one.

It was filthy covered in dead insects and he needed to wash them off when he got there and when he got home later on in the night.

Nowadays he does the same route collecting kids, job, etc. His car is spotless.

Just think about how much the aerodynamics of cars have changed in 30 years !!

Seriously, it gone from driving a garden shed to vehicles designed by computers and tested in wind tunnels.

Most insects just blow across cars now.

Bass Reeves

_Brian wrote: »

Just think about how much the aerodynamics of cars have changed in 30 years !!

Seriously, it gone from driving a garden shed to vehicles designed by computers and tested in wind tunnels.

Most insects just blow across cars now.

How many butterfly's did you see this summer and if you saw any how many different types. The same for bees, were you stung by horsefly's this summer. How may daddy long legs. Even migits did you get bit by any.

Kuva

_Brian wrote: »

Just think about how much the aerodynamics of cars have changed in 30 years !!

Seriously, it gone from driving a garden shed to vehicles designed by computers and tested in wind tunnels.

Most insects just blow across cars now.

The designs have changed f-all, you read that at took it as gospel, now go look at a few cars instead.

_Brian

Bass Reeves wrote: »

How many butterfly's did you see this summer and if you saw any how many different types. The same for bees, were you stung by horsefly's this summer. How may daddy long legs. Even migits did you get bit by any.

Butterflies about 4-5 types in my garden.
Was walking along our wild flower border one day talking on my phone and counted three types of bumblebee along with a host of honey bees.

Eaten alive with horseflies around stock this year, worst in many.

Haven’t been at home in a few weeks so can’t comment on daddy’s and miges.

We get lots of insect life at home, lots.

If I leave a light on outside it’s black with moths, I left my ensuite window open for two hours after dark and there were hindered of different flying insects in.

Bats are mad at dusk, we have three types on the farm,

_Brian

Kuva wrote: »

The designs have changed f-all, you read that at took it as gospel, now go look at a few cars instead.

Seriously, cars haven’t changed much in 30 years ?

Kuva

_Brian wrote: »

Seriously, cars haven’t changed much in 30 years ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Carina_II

No.

Kuva

_Brian wrote: »

Butterflies about 4-5 types in my garden.
Was walking along our wild flower border one day talking on my phone and counted three types of bumblebee along with a host of honey bees.

Eaten alive with horseflies around stock this year, worst in many.

Haven’t been at home in a few weeks so can’t comment on daddy’s and miges.

We get lots of insect life at home, lots.

If I leave a light on outside it’s black with moths, I left my ensuite window open for two hours after dark and there were hindered of different flying insects in.

Bats are mad at dusk, we have three types on the farm,

Your poxy foot of flowers and a light are obviously gonna have abit of life. Where else can they go, all thats left is grass.

'Catastrophe' as France's bird population collapses due to pesticides
Where have all the insects gone?
Warning of 'ecological Armageddon' after dramatic plunge in insect numbers
The shocking decline in birds worldwide is a disaster of humanity’s making

Recent research, he noted, has uncovered similar trends across Europe, estimating that flying insects have declined by 80%, and bird populations has dropped by more than 400m in 30 years.

The decline has been particularly marked since 2008/2009, the studies said, a period that corresponds with the scrapping of European regulation the obliged farmers to leave at least 10 percent of their land fallow each year.

Can link this stuff worldwide, Land, Sea or Air, it's all fcuked, unless you're a halfwit we all know it.

greysides

Mod: Kuva, easy on the rhetoric, please.

kupus

_Brian wrote: »

Just think about how much the aerodynamics of cars have changed in 30 years !!

Seriously, it gone from driving a garden shed to vehicles designed by computers and tested in wind tunnels.

Most insects just blow across cars now.

Ok I can see you are serious but your argument falls at the first hurdle as most of his cars are classics that range from 60s/70s

I have experience of this myself in that I used to have to wash car after night driving because hot sun next day would bake bugs into the paint. But that was driving on a highway with fields the size of Leitrim beside you, in an aerodynamic car. But that was years ago so I would like to drive that same stretch to see how much has changed with the way farming has gone in the last 10 years.

Upstream

Kuva wrote: »

Your foot of flowers and a light are obviously gonna have abit of life. Where else can they go, all thats left is grass.

'Catastrophe' as France's bird population collapses due to pesticides
Where have all the insects gone?
Warning of 'ecological Armageddon' after dramatic plunge in insect numbers
The shocking decline in birds worldwide is a disaster of humanity’s making


Can link this stuff worldwide, Land, Sea or Air, it's all fcuked...

In fairness to _Brian I think he's based in a northern border county like me where we don't have as much tillage or intensive grassland management with continuous respraying with round up and reseeding with ryegrass monocultures. Yes, some fields will be just grass monocultures but other pastures may have never seen a plough and be a mixture of a wide variety of grasses and forbs. The soil organic matter and biodiversity levels in these will likely be much higher.

It's from fields like these that the insects are flocking to his lights, not ones subjected to a scorched earth spraying policy with all kinds of biocides, insecticides, fungicides, herbicides and any other kind of cides.