Compensation for Gardaí

realitykeeper

In the past two weeks, I have read in the newspapers a number of different cases whereby Gardaí have received substantial payments for some incident or other on the job. This raises a fundamental question. If Gardaí can walk into court and claim an enormous payment then should the hazards of being a Garda continue to be priced into their salary as they presently are? Would it not be more appropriate to pay them at lot less in lieu of anything they might claim in court?

blazard

no

Mr. Incognito

So you think we should pay ALL Guards an enormous salary because one or two received compensation for horrific injuries.

On that logic shouldnt EVERYONE get a compo payday on the chance they might be in an accident.

realitykeeper

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

So you think we should pay ALL Guards an enormous salary because one or two received compensation for horrific injuries.

On that logic shouldnt EVERYONE get a compo payday on the chance they might be in an accident.

You seem to have misread what I posted.

seamus

The flaw in the OP is that risk is not currently priced into a Garda's compensation. Starting salary is €23,750. When minimum wage is just shy of €20,000, it's pretty clear that there's no "risk premium" paid to Gardai.

In any case, you cannot and should not sign a disclaimer that says, "anything that happens on the job is OK". With any job you agree to a level of risk which is reasonable and foreseeable for the work being done. For a Garda, that might be a few scraps involving soft tissue damage and non-permanent injury. "Unreasonable" risk is anything which involves permanent or life-changing injury.

Mr. Incognito

seamus wrote: »

The flaw in the OP is that risk is not currently priced into a Garda's compensation. Starting salary is €23,750. When minimum wage is just shy of €20,000, it's pretty clear that there's no "risk premium" paid to Gardai.

In any case, you cannot and should not sign a disclaimer that says, "anything that happens on the job is OK". With any job you agree to a level of risk which is reasonable and foreseeable for the work being done. For a Garda, that might be a few scraps involving soft tissue damage and non-permanent injury. "Unreasonable" risk is anything which involves permanent or life-changing injury.

Starting Salary is €30K

https://gra.ie/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/GardaPayScales1Sept2017.pdf

When you include overtime, and pension rights its about 100K on average

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/editorial/the-fuller-picture-emerges-on-pay-and-pensions-for-garda%C3%AD-1.2904394

Eggs For Dinner

The Gardaí do a dangerous job and I wouldn't fancy it. If they are injured in the course of protecting society, they should be compensated. Now, the level of any award is a different matter and part of the overall problem in Ireland

realitykeeper

Eggs For Dinner wrote: »

The Gardaí do a dangerous job and I wouldn't fancy it. If they are injured in the course of protecting society, they should be compensated. Now, the level of any award is a different matter and part of the overall problem in Ireland

The fact that it is a dangerous job (assuming they are actually doing the job as opposed to pretending to be doing it like they were with the fake breathalyzer testing) then why should they be compensated for the danger if they can claim loads of money if something actually happens? That is like paying them twice.

Eggs For Dinner

realitykeeper wrote:

The fact that it is a dangerous job (assuming they are actually doing the job as opposed to pretending to be doing it like they were with the fake breathalyzer testing) then why should they be compensated for the danger if they can claim loads of money if something actually happens? That is like paying them twice.

You sound like the type of chap who thinks it's Ok to give a Garda dog's abuse because you "pay his wages"

Twenty Grand

realitykeeper wrote: »

The fact that it is a dangerous job (assuming they are actually doing the job as opposed to pretending to be doing it like they were with the fake breathalyzer testing) then why should they be compensated for the danger if they can claim loads of money if something actually happens? That is like paying them twice.

If you've a life changing injury at work you should be entitled to compensation, which should refelect the money you could have earned if you were still working. End of.

If your job is hazardous it's your employers job to reduce the hazard and insure themselves appropriately.

Riskymove

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

and pension rights

a red herring when talking about someone's pay

they don't have an average pay of €100k

geeky

Tbf there's a certain dynamic where exceptional cases are reported, which in turn gives rise to a view that these outliers are the norm. Think it's fair to say that this applied to personal injuries more generally.

If you're interested in the legal context of this, the Law Society Gazette had a good piece on thr issue a while back: https://www.lawsociety.ie/News/News/Stories/Garda-patrol--compensation-for-personal-injuries-suffered-by-gardai/

CrankyHaus

The rationale for an especially generous Garda compensation scheme is so they continue to put their safety on the line for that of others without fear that they and their families will be on skid row if things go wrong.

Since we fairly often read of great bravery by Gardai it's fair to say that the Garda compensation scheme works.

The reality is that the system does get gamed by some and is a bit of a honeypot for lawyers. Since a large part of it is assessment only significant costs could be saved by instituting PIAB style reform of the process.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

CrankyHaus wrote: »

... especially generous Garda compensation scheme...

LOL!

CrankyHaus wrote: »

Since we fairly often read of great bravery by Gardai it's fair to say that the Garda compensation scheme works.

Woah there horsey, that's quite the jump. What has compensation got to do with somebodies qualities?

mynamejeff

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

Starting Salary is €30K

https://gra.ie/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/GardaPayScales1Sept2017.pdf

When you include overtime, and pension rights its about 100K on average

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/editorial/the-fuller-picture-emerges-on-pay-and-pensions-for-garda%C3%AD-1.2904394

100 000 Euro ? i see your link is from the opinion page , that might explain why your so far wrong , in actuality its somewhere below 50 000.

taking into consideration
a 60 hour shift week
non accountable and often grossly incompantaint management structure
constantly changing work practices at the whim of politicians and media
horrifically substandard equipment (cars uniform PPE)
unprotected by a proper union
denied the right to speak to a public rep/ denied the right to silence
a minimal official support stricture provided

some one who had his life both physically and mentally destroyed in the service of the state and is then case aside to be evicted and institutionalized in John of Gods should be compensated and generously.

If it had happened to some on in a private company would it be any different?

CrankyHaus

Jayson High Quarterfinal wrote: »

LOL!



Woah there horsey, that's quite the jump. What has compensation got to do with somebodies qualities?

Responses like "LOL" make you sound like an 8 year old. What are you trying to say here?

I gave a clear explanation of how compensation is a motivation for courage. I'm not sure if you're deliberately acting obtuse or if you're simply too dim to understand, though the rest of your message suggests it's the latter.

realitykeeper

Eggs For Dinner wrote: »

You sound like the type of chap who thinks it's Ok to give a Garda dog's abuse because you "pay his wages"

No. I just expect them to do their jobs to a high standard which they don`t.

realitykeeper

Twenty Grand wrote: »

If you've a life changing injury at work you should be entitled to compensation, which should refelect the money you could have earned if you were still working. End of.

If your job is hazardous it's your employers job to reduce the hazard and insure themselves appropriately.

Labour laws favour the employee in my opinion but at the end of the day, if something does not make financial sense, it should not exist. Otherwise, there will be hell to pay.

Twenty Grand

realitykeeper wrote: »

Labour laws favour the employee in my opinion but at the end of the day, if something does not make financial sense, it should not exist. Otherwise, there will be hell to pay.

The sensationalist headlines don't help.
A garda at age 30 has at least another 30 years of work ahead of him. At 50k a year thats 1.5 million pre tax.

If you're injured at work due to no fault of your own and you CANNOT continue working there's no reason why you shouldn't get paid out.

It seems like a large lump sum, but over the rest of your life, paying morgage and kids college and your own expenses into retirement it's actually not that much.

It's not fair, compared to people who are injured in normal life or born with a disability, but im a big proponent of OHS.

realitykeeper

Twenty Grand wrote: »

The sensationalist headlines don't help.
A garda at age 30 has at least another 30 years of work ahead of him. At 50k a year thats 1.5 million pre tax.

If you're injured at work due to no fault of your own and you CANNOT continue working there's no reason why you shouldn't get paid out.

It seems like a large lump sum, but over the rest of your life, paying morgage and kids college and your own expenses into retirement it's actually not that much.

It's not fair, compared to people who are injured in normal life or born with a disability, but im a big proponent of OHS.

In that case the risk of danger should have no bearing whatsoever in a Garda`s salary. If nothing happens he will have gotten away with taxpayers money for nothing. If something happens he can claim - based on a salary which should be a good deal lower without the danger excuse priced in.

On a related point, this nonsense about junior doctors, nurses, teachers, Gardaí etc demanding parity of pay with their seniors, ignores the fact that the unions sold the juniors down the river. I know because recently I benefited from a pay rise and the one term in the terms and conditions that nobody had an issue with was that the pay rise would not apply to newcomers. If parity of pay is so important, then senior people like myself should have our pay cut to the same level as the newcomers. This ripoff of the taxpayers in the private sector has to stop.

Dr Brown

Eggs For Dinner wrote: »

The Gardaí do a dangerous job and I wouldn't fancy it. If they are injured in the course of protecting society, they should be compensated. Now, the level of any award is a different matter and part of the overall problem in Ireland

Statistically speaking its not a dangerous job. You are far more likely to get killed if you work in construction.

Eggs For Dinner

Dr Brown wrote: »

Statistically speaking its not a dangerous job. You are far more likely to get killed if you work in construction.

And construction workers very frequently claim compensation for injuries suffered during the course of their work

_Brian

realitykeeper wrote: »

No. I just expect them to do their jobs to a high standard which they don`t.

Any encounter I’ve had with them has been professional and helpful.

Bellerstring

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/high-court/garda-gets-35-000-after-confronting-prisoner-covered-in-faeces-1.2564665?mode=amp
Some payments are ott though....

tayto lover

_Brian wrote: »

Any encounter I’ve had with them has been professional and helpful.

Same here. Always got good service.
I suppose that like any other large organisation you might meet a poor specimen from time to time but luckily I haven't.

wonski

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

Starting Salary is €30K

https://gra.ie/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/GardaPayScales1Sept2017.pdf

When you include overtime, and pension rights its about 100K on average

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/editorial/the-fuller-picture-emerges-on-pay-and-pensions-for-garda%C3%AD-1.2904394

They are not on 100k average.

You completely misread the calculation.

If it was 100k a year, that would be the best paid police force in the world

mynamejeff

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/specialreports/fight-for-justice-why-did-the-gardai-add-insult-to-injury-860165.html


interesting read


compensated for a ruined life

ruined by criminal malice and managerial vindictiveness

the only support from his own rank and ran out of a job he loved

dont seem unfair to me

Riskymove

Dr Brown wrote: »

Statistically speaking its not a dangerous job. You are far more likely to get killed if you work in construction.

indeed and farming similar.....but those deaths are accidents (vast majority anyway)

the difference is putting your self in harms way/being expected to put your own safety before others

tayto lover

I'd say that life in the fishing industry is the most dangerous.
Huge earnings but life on the deep blue on a stormy day then it's earned.

Dr Brown

Riskymove wrote: »

indeed and farming similar.....but those deaths are accidents (vast majority anyway)

the difference is putting your self in harms way/being expected to put your own safety before others

Yeah but a lot of them have it handy like spending all day in the station filling out forms or working in areas that have little or no crime.

The job is nowhere near as "dangerous" as Garda spokespeople would have you believe.

Nightclub doormen are far more likely to get assaulted in their line of work than the Gardai are yet you never hear them moaning about how "dangerous" their job is.

Edgware

Dr Brown wrote: »

Statistically speaking its not a dangerous job. You are far more likely to get killed if you work in construction.

The Garda deaths of recent years have been murders. The construction deaths have been due to inadequate safety equipment, faulty scaffolding, careless driving of construction equipment etc. There is a difference. However whatever a persons occupation they should never have to die in their workplace

Dr Brown

Edgware wrote: »

The Garda deaths of recent years have been murders. The construction deaths have been due to inadequate safety equipment, faulty scaffolding, careless driving of construction equipment etc. There is a difference. However whatever a persons occupation they should never have to die in their workplace

Nightclub doormen also get murdered yet nobody seems to bat an eyelid when that happens.



https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/crime/man-who-killed-innocent-doorman-brian-fitzgerald-found-unresponsive-in-prison-cell-34667762.html

Bandana boy

Riskymove wrote: »

a red herring when talking about someone's pay

they don't have an average pay of €100k

Except they do
To buy their pension you would need to be putting a min of 35K into your pension every year from your first year in the job .
So even starting at 24k they are in reality being paid 59k
Only the very best graduates could possibly approach this.
When you add in allowances and overtime it is the best paid graduate program in the country.

Dr Brown

Bandana boy wrote: »

Except they do
To buy their pension you would need to be putting a min of 35K into your pension every year from your first year in the job .
So even starting at 24k they are in reality being paid 59k
Only the very best graduates could possibly approach this.
When you add in allowances and overtime it is the best paid graduate program in the country.

Garda pay should be benchmarked against security guards and doormen etc.

tayto lover

Dr Brown wrote: »

Nightclub doormen also get murdered yet nobody seems to bat an eyelid when that happens.



https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/crime/man-who-killed-innocent-doorman-brian-fitzgerald-found-unresponsive-in-prison-cell-34667762.html

Probably because most of them are mixers and they don't pay tax on it.

tayto lover

Dr Brown wrote: »

Garda pay should be benchmarked against security guards and doormen etc.

You're not trying hard enough ha ha.

RobbieMD

wonski wrote: »

They are not on 100k average.

You completely misread the calculation.

If it was 100k a year, that would be the best paid police force in the world

Unfortunately some people just seem to have an agenda.
You can work and contribute in the state for 10 years. At the end you are guaranteed about €220 per week as a pension, or €11,440 per annum

The Garda pension is half their annual pay. Top of the pay scale is just shy over €50,000.
So you work 30yrs+ making mandatory pension payments for that €25,000 pension per annum

Yeah that extra €13,500 per annum over the ordinary state pension is really the gold plated pension that always gets trotted out...

Dr Brown

tayto lover wrote: »

You're not trying hard enough ha ha.

What are you talking about ?

mynamejeff

Dr Brown wrote: »

Garda pay should be benchmarked against security guards and doormen etc.

because thats the same thing is it ?

talk about a silly comment

Dr Brown

mynamejeff wrote: »

because thats the same thing is it ?

talk about a silly comment

Its not the same but Gardas do very similar work to security guards.

mynamejeff

Dr Brown wrote: »

Its not the same but Gardas do very similar work to security guards.

for 4 or 5 hours on a friday and satuarday night

is that just because thats the only time you see them ?

Twenty Grand

Dr Brown wrote: »

Its not the same but Gardas do very similar work to security guards.

Investigate crimes?

KaneToad

RobbieMD wrote: »

Unfortunately some people just seem to have an agenda.
You can work and contribute in the state for 10 years. At the end you are guaranteed about €220 per week as a pension, or €11,440 per annum

The Garda pension is half their annual pay. Top of the pay scale is just shy over €50,000.
So you work 30yrs+ making mandatory pension payments for that €25,000 pension per annum

Yeah that extra €13,500 per annum over the ordinary state pension is really the gold plated pension that always gets trotted out...

Do allowances not count toward pension too? If so, the top of the payscale isn't the figure to be looking at?

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/editorial/the-fuller-picture-emerges-on-pay-and-pensions-for-gardaí-1.2904394?mode=amp

talla10

Bandana boy wrote: »

Except they do
To buy their pension you would need to be putting a min of 35K into your pension every year from your first year in the job .
So even starting at 24k they are in reality being paid 59k
Only the very best graduates could possibly approach this.
When you add in allowances and overtime it is the best paid graduate program in the country.

You do realise Gardaí pay 14% of their salary into their pension since the pension levies imposed during austerity? And if the pension is that lucarative, its not a dangerous job and they don't 'really' do anything where do I sign up??

Dr Brown

Twenty Grand wrote: »

Investigate crimes?

lol they don't even do that most of the time.

I had my house brokering into and Gardas were suppose to call around to collect finger prints but they never did.

They have very little interest investigating "low level" crime.

Dr Brown

talla10 wrote: »

You do realise Gardaí pay 14% of their salary into their pension since the pension levies imposed during austerity? And if the pension is that lucarative, its not a dangerous job and they don't 'really' do anything where do I sign up??

The 14% was just a pay cut there is no fund for public sector pensions.

talla10

Dr Brown wrote: »

The 14% was just a pay cut there is no fund for public sector pensions.

It is officially a pension levy. What the Government does with the money is not up to Gardaí.

mynamejeff

Dr Brown wrote: »

lol they don't even do that most of the time.

I had my house brokering into and Gardas were suppose to call around to collect finger prints but they never did.

They have very little interest investigating "low level" crime.

aw right , so biased on your one interaction you make you judgement on 12000 people

i wonder if they just dont like people called brown

i think you may misunderstand the world around you drbrown

Dr Brown

mynamejeff wrote: »

aw right , so biased on your one interaction you make you judgement on 12000 people

i wonder if they just dont like people called brown

i think you may misunderstand the world around you drbrown

Thats just one of many countless examples.

I could write a whole book on Garda inaction.

Eggs For Dinner

Dr Brown wrote:

I could write a whole book on Garda inaction.

In 56 years, I've probably only interacted with. Gardai 5 or 6 times. Are you "known" to Gardai? ðŸ˜

Dr Brown

Eggs For Dinner wrote: »

In 56 years, I've probably only interacted with. Gardai 5 or 6 times. Are you "known" to Gardai? ðŸ˜

I would be known to them but I'm not a criminal or have a criminal record if that's what your asking.