PRTB Case - Negative Impact

kenmm

If I open a PRTB case regarding my current landlord, is it likely to have a negative impact on me when looking for a new place?

These are publicly searchable, right?

Browney7

Yeah tenants asserting their tenancy rights regardless of whether they are right or wrong to do so is frowned upon and you'll never again get a place...so is the vibe on this forum anyways.

People on here say you can seek to have adjudications removed from the website though.

BrokenArrows

Only if your new potential landlord is the kind that doesnt want to follow the rules, which to be honest is something you want to avoid so i can only see good things happening if you log a case.

If a landlord is all above board then they will have no issues with you making complaints to the PRTB about a previous tenancy.

godtabh

BrokenArrows wrote: »

Only if your new potential landlord is the kind that doesnt want to follow the rules, which to be honest is something you want to avoid so i can only see good things happening if you log a case.

If a landlord is all above board then they will have no issues with you making complaints to the PRTB about a previous tenancy.

If the complaint is frivolous and say the tenant is not paying rent in the mean time I'd say an aboveboard landlord would look at it negatively.

Not saying this is the case for the OP but a landlord may look at your PRTB history and say you are high maintenance and walk away.

Fol20

Guys how do you search someone’s name on RTB website?

XVII

Can you search for landlords' names too there?

XVII

found it:
https://onestopshop.rtb.ie/dispute-case-outcomes/

pressing "Search" with empty fields will yield all results btw

davindub

kenmm wrote: »

If I open a PRTB case regarding my current landlord, is it likely to have a negative impact on me when looking for a new place?

These are publicly searchable, right?

Unless you have a distinctive name I wouldnt worry about

GGTrek

Fol20 wrote: »

Guys how do you search someone’s name on RTB website?

I always do as part of a prospective tenants background check (when you have 5 to 6 new tenants per year like me, it is paramount). I discovered some interesting things about a few applicants: the worst was a university lecturer who was what I would call a "professional" tenant, gaming the system all the way to the RTB tribunal. I also use courts.ie for the real smart pieces of work that had to be taken to court and tried to cancel their traces (finding a name in courts.ie would ring massive alarm bells) and also the RTB tribunal agenda which cannot be cancelled (again finding someone there would ring massive alarm bells since I totally oppose the current crooked RTB appeal system which is the top game for professional tenants). I also make sure that the names of the tenants that took me to RTB or I took to RTB are published as a service to other fellow landlords (I do not care at all that my name is there, I actually show the worst case to new tenants so that they understand the consequences if they seriously misbehave). Going to RTB for me amounts to a declaration of war (many posters in this forum seem to have a very light attitude to it). It is dead serious and it should have consequences especially for bad tenants. My definition of a bad tenant is one that breached his obligations in any way (rent arrears, anti-social, subletting, unpaid damage, vexatious accusations that did not hold, ...). It is very easy to see this from an RTB determination order. In other countries like the UK or the US proper tenant references databases are available and court records cannot have names cancelled. Ireland is very backward in this sense (due to the massive pro-tenant bias of the legislators) and background check has to be done with the very few tools available.

muminpajamas

GGTrek wrote: »

I always do as part of a prospective tenants background check (when you have 5 to 6 new tenants per year like me, it is paramount). I discovered some interesting things about a few applicants: the worst was a university lecturer who was what I would call a "professional" tenant, gaming the system all the way to the RTB tribunal. I also use courts.ie for the real smart pieces of work that had to be taken to court and tried to cancel their traces (finding a name in courts.ie would ring massive alarm bells) and also the RTB tribunal agenda which cannot be cancelled (again finding someone there would ring massive alarm bells since I totally oppose the current crooked RTB appeal system which is the top game for professional tenants). I also make sure that the names of the tenants that took me to RTB or I took to RTB are published as a service to other fellow landlords (I do not care at all that my name is there, I actually show the worst case to new tenants so that they understand the consequences if they seriously misbehave). Going to RTB for me amounts to a declaration of war (many posters in this forum seem to have a very light attitude to it). It is dead serious and it should have consequences especially for bad tenants. My definition of a bad tenant is one that breached his obligations in any way (rent arrears, anti-social, subletting, unpaid damage, vexatious accusations that did not hold, ...). It is very easy to see this from an RTB determination order. In other countries like the UK or the US proper tenant references databases are available and court records cannot have names cancelled. Ireland is very backward in this sense (due to the massive pro-tenant bias of the legislators) and background check has to be done with the very few tools available.

Are you that Landlord that automatically evicts tenants after six months?

mikemac2

GGTrek wrote: »

I also make sure that the names of the tenants that took me to RTB or I took to RTB are published as a service to other fellow landlords (I do not care at all that my name is there, I actually show the worst case to new tenants so that they understand the consequences if they seriously misbehave). .

How does that conversation work?

“Sit down there young chap. You mess around and I’ll show you what happened the last fella :eek:”

Sounds like you are geared up for fights before they even happen.

jimwallace197

GGTrek wrote: »

I always do as part of a prospective tenants background check (when you have 5 to 6 new tenants per year like me, it is paramount). I discovered some interesting things about a few applicants: the worst was a university lecturer who was what I would call a "professional" tenant, gaming the system all the way to the RTB tribunal. I also use courts.ie for the real smart pieces of work that had to be taken to court and tried to cancel their traces (finding a name in courts.ie would ring massive alarm bells) and also the RTB tribunal agenda which cannot be cancelled (again finding someone there would ring massive alarm bells since I totally oppose the current crooked RTB appeal system which is the top game for professional tenants). I also make sure that the names of the tenants that took me to RTB or I took to RTB are published as a service to other fellow landlords (I do not care at all that my name is there, I actually show the worst case to new tenants so that they understand the consequences if they seriously misbehave). Going to RTB for me amounts to a declaration of war (many posters in this forum seem to have a very light attitude to it). It is dead serious and it should have consequences especially for bad tenants. My definition of a bad tenant is one that breached his obligations in any way (rent arrears, anti-social, subletting, unpaid damage, vexatious accusations that did not hold, ...). It is very easy to see this from an RTB determination order. In other countries like the UK or the US proper tenant references databases are available and court records cannot have names cancelled. Ireland is very backward in this sense (due to the massive pro-tenant bias of the legislators) and background check has to be done with the very few tools available.

Thanks for posting this GGtrek, do you mind me asking where on courts.ie that you can check information like this. Thanks

XVII

I took to RTB

Going to RTB for me amounts to a declaration of war (many posters in this forum seem to have a very light attitude to it). It is dead serious and it should have consequences

so what were the consequences for you?

GGTrek

mikemac2 wrote: »

GGTrek wrote: »

I also make sure that the names of the tenants that took me to RTB or I took to RTB are published as a service to other fellow landlords (I do not care at all that my name is there, I actually show the worst case to new tenants so that they understand the consequences if they seriously misbehave). .

How does that conversation work?

“Sit down there young chap. You mess around and I’ll show you what happened the last fella :eek:”

Sounds like you are geared up for fights before they even happen.

It is called prevention I do have a chat about the rules (a very short list, like no subletting, no overcrowding, no noise at night, proper ventilation, keep the flat clean, no pets, no smoking inside, rent on time) and warn them they will be treated very fairly as long as they follow the rules, but if they breach them they know my threats are not just talk since there is a clear trakc record of consequences. 85-90% of my tenants are good ones and we have a great relationship and provide great references to them, the remaing 10% end up hating me, which is fine by me, since I hate them too. A professional landlord has to put maximum effort in order to select a tenant that will prevent an RTB case because it is massively expensive in terms of time and stress (the massive time I waste to prepare and provide evidence and submissions and go to the RTB hearings is fully unpaid and non recoverable unlike courts costs). Even a very easy case would take 40-48 hours of my time + agent fees to attend. A difficult case we are talking 180-200 hours (you literally have to work at night to prepare the submissions and evidence before the deadline) + paying witnesses' costs to go to hearing + agent fees for all the services you need, part 4 tenants misbehaving always fall in the difficult cases list (5 out of my 6 adjudications were with old part 4 tenants). Tenants just do not understand that an RTB case will cause a massive resentment for a landlord since it is a massive one-off unrecoverable time cost with very tight deadlines. For example instead of spending time with my family I am spending time preparing the case, so my submission is usually brutal as it should be for someone who has become my enemy. There was another poster in this forum which defined perfectly what an RTB case is for a landlord: "trench warfare". I know the adjudicator will be biased against me and try to help the "poor tenant" at every possible step (I have seen it with my own eyes, suggesting to the subletting tenant in front of me ways to game the system using appeals on a case he knew was desperate and suggesting to me at the same time a more favourable exit agreement for a tenant he knew from the evidence that was subletting and not paying utility bills ....). So I have to prove beyond reasonable doubt (this is the kind of level of proof I need for breach of tenant obligations) and this is inherently a very nasty process for the tenant affected as well because you are showing him/her in a very direct and confrontational manner all his/her misbehaviours. Most people do not like to see all their bad deeds pointed out and react badly, but this is exactly what the RTB process requires from landlords in order to win a case where no agreement can be reached.

Regarding the smug comment of "muminpajamas", the only RTB case I had to take for a tenant who stayed less than 8 months (not 6 months!) went straight to the easy case list, since I do not have to prove anything to terminate (rent arrears in such case, however I just served a straight 28 days termination with no previous warning, he knew perfectly well why his tenancy was being terminated). I do not even have to present myself personally at such hearing, my representative goes in such case since there is nothing to discuss and termination times are shortened which is a massive reduction of costs for me (all my tenants are working tenants nowadays, so they do not have the massive advantages of welfare tenants offered by the RTB system, which means effectively no real financial consequences for any breach of a welfare tenant). Also the smug one-liner commenter forgot to read my posts in detail, if the tenant is good I alwasy offer other accommodation before the 8 months are over (if he/she wishes). I am sorry, but the government with his pro-tenant bias put me in the corner and I have to protect my business from the massive costs presented by a complicated RTB case with a part 4 tenant (always a difficult case with a part 4 tenant).

GGTrek

jimwallace197 wrote: »

Thanks for posting this GGtrek, do you mind me asking where on courts.ie that you can check information like this. Thanks

This is the link: http://www.courts.ie/courts.ie/Library3.nsf/advancedsearch?openform&l=en
Search for "Residential Tenancies Boards" and you will see the names of the tenants the RTB had to take to circuit court to evict or force to pay damages or you can put the tenant name and see if anything comes out (for example old landlord had to take him to court to enforce or if they have other civil issues that should be investigated), if the name comes out further investigation is absolutely necessary in my opinion even if the name is common. You can also see the very few who appeal RTB tribunal determinations to the High Court against the RTB (90% are welfare tenants with no consequences for the massive high court costs).

jimwallace197

GGTrek wrote: »

This is the link:
Search for "Residential Tenancies Boards" and you will see the names of the tenants the RTB had to take to circuit court to evict or force to pay damages or you can put the tenant name and see if anything comes out (for example old landlord had to take him to court to enforce or if they have other civil issues that should be investigated), if the name comes out further investigation is absolutely necessary in my opinion even if the name is common. You can also see the very few who appeal RTB tribunal determinations to the High Court against the RTB (90% are welfare tenants with no consequences for the massive high court costs).

Thank you

rossmores

if a ll and tenant employs adopts good standards rtb and fees paid should be for the special ones they need ur call soooooooooo badly

kenmm

ll didnt stick to half of his obligations despite repeated reasonable attempts to resolve. Don't want to post details yet.

muminpajamas

GGTrek wrote: »

if the tenant is good I alwasy offer other accommodation before the 8 months are over (if he/she wishes).

Even if you offer other accommodation for a few select tenants it is still eviction.

GGTrek

muminpajamas wrote: »

GGTrek wrote: »

if the tenant is good I alwasy offer other accommodation before the 8 months are over (if he/she wishes).

Even if you offer other accommodation for a few select tenants it is still eviction.

Every candidate tenant that comes over for viewings knows the maximum he/she/they will stay is 8 months. No more part 4, as simple as that. A tenant in part 4 causing issues becomes a massive burden due to skewed pro-tenant legislation and skewed pro-tenant RTB adjudicators behaviour (not all of them, but the majority in my experience).

I do not have time anymore to deal with part 4 bad tenants BS at the RTB (which is a certainty in my case given the number of tenancies), last case (non part 4) was finally easy due to the fact that I did not have to prove any proof except the delivery of the notice (28 days no fault eviction notice) and the adjudicator had nothing to think about apart from helping negotiating a date to vacate the flat and a plan to pay the rent arrears (which was the original intention of the Irish legislator: a quick, impartial and fast mediation process not a Tenant's board with adjudicator's providing legal advice to tenants during the hearings to play the biased system even if they know the tenant has breached all sorts of obligations!). A few years ago I was trying to avoid the RTB at all costs, but the cost caused by bad tenants staying was really sinking the business and good tenants suffered, not anymore, 2018 is actually the best year I have ever had mainly due to adopting such policy.

The high standing morals or cheap one liners always present on this forum (since most of the people spouting morals and one liners have usually got no skin in the game which means no money to loose in the game) are totally irrelevant to my business. I am in this forum to provide and receive advice/information from other landlords (as I have done in this thread as well) who at the moment in Ireland have absolutely no support network (unlike the limitless number of charities supporting tenants in every legal and illegal way by using taxpayers money!).

In any case regulatory risk is getting so high with new legislation proposals that I am currently planning an exit for early next year: the regulatory risk vs return has become very bad and it is worsening. I am not talking about rent arrears here: they are just a credit risk that can be substantially reduced by following a proper tenant selection process (which has nothing to do with morals BTW) and having a good number of tenancies to cover the running costs in case one tenancy goes awry. I am talking about fixed unavoidable costs. These costs were created by all the  legislation that piled up over the years and just keeps coming due to the the immense hypocrisy of the Irish politicians who want to show they are helping tenants for electoral gains. There has not been a single piece of legislation since 2008 that helped landlords (10 years!), all the legislation issued in the past 10 years was actively against landlords. Almost every single year since then, the legislator added more and more (costly) obligations on landlords (either tax or building standards or administrative requirements or additional tenant's rights), look at the results, it takes real talent to create such a mess!!!

Also govvie and tenants rarely think that landlord time spent on managing these additional obligations represents a substantial cost for the landlord, since he/she can dedicate such time to other profitable endeavours or even better spend it on his/her private life. Examples: a tenant breaching a tenancy rule will cause a lot of additional time to the landlord to manage the rule breach consequences according to law; govvie and RTB requesting an 8 pages paperwork that is not possible to standardize to increase rent by 4% are requesting a massive amount of management time for very little return (this was the short sighted scope, but it had nefarious consequences on supply); HAP rules/processes must be the worst in terms of sucking the lifeblood of the landlord, ... I just cannot understand how some landlords can even consider HAP tenants, when there is plenty of working people who need accommodation; zealous council inspectors using and abusing the one size fits all stupid minimum standards for rented housing regulations are another massive drain on time (why should I provide white appliances and maintain them? why should I provide furnished lettings? why a vent extractor has to be on a separate circuit than the light of a bathroom? several parts of the regulations and their interpretation by the council inspectors are petty to the extreme, ....), ....

davo10

I always search RTB site for tenants name, if it's on it, why take the risk with so many people applying for the property?

muminpajamas

GGTrek wrote: »

Every candidate tenant that comes over for viewings knows the maximum he/she/they will stay is 8 months. No more part 4, as simple as that. A tenant in part 4 causing issues becomes a massive burden due to skewed pro-tenant legislation and skewed pro-tenant RTB adjudicators behaviour (not all of them, but the majority in my experience).

I do not have time anymore to deal with part 4 bad tenants BS at the RTB (which is a certainty in my case given the number of tenancies), last case (non part 4) was finally easy due to the fact that I did not have to prove any proof except the delivery of the notice (28 days no fault eviction notice) and the adjudicator had nothing to think about apart from helping negotiating a date to vacate the flat and a plan to pay the rent arrears (which was the original intention of the Irish legislator: a quick, impartial and fast mediation process not a Tenant's board with adjudicator's providing legal advice to tenants during the hearings to play the biased system even if they know the tenant has breached all sorts of obligations!). A few years ago I was trying to avoid the RTB at all costs, but the cost caused by bad tenants staying was really sinking the business and good tenants suffered, not anymore, 2018 is actually the best year I have ever had mainly due to adopting such policy.

The high standing morals or cheap one liners always present on this forum (since most of the people spouting morals and one liners have usually got no skin in the game which means no money to loose in the game) are totally irrelevant to my business. I am in this forum to provide and receive advice/information from other landlords (as I have done in this thread as well) who at the moment in Ireland have absolutely no support network (unlike the limitless number of charities supporting tenants in every legal and illegal way by using taxpayers money!).

In any case regulatory risk is getting so high with new legislation proposals that I am currently planning an exit for early next year: the regulatory risk vs return has become very bad and it is worsening. I am not talking about rent arrears here: they are just a credit risk that can be substantially reduced by following a proper tenant selection process (which has nothing to do with morals BTW) and having a good number of tenancies to cover the running costs in case one tenancy goes awry. I am talking about fixed unavoidable costs. These costs were created by all the  legislation that piled up over the years and just keeps coming due to the the immense hypocrisy of the Irish politicians who want to show they are helping tenants for electoral gains. There has not been a single piece of legislation since 2008 that helped landlords (10 years!), all the legislation issued in the past 10 years was actively against landlords. Almost every single year since then, the legislator added more and more (costly) obligations on landlords (either tax or building standards or administrative requirements or additional tenant's rights), look at the results, it takes real talent to create such a mess!!!

Also govvie and tenants rarely think that landlord time spent on managing these additional obligations represents a substantial cost for the landlord, since he/she can dedicate such time to other profitable endeavours or even better spend it on his/her private life. Examples: a tenant breaching a tenancy rule will cause a lot of additional time to the landlord to manage the rule breach consequences according to law; govvie and RTB requesting an 8 pages paperwork that is not possible to standardize to increase rent by 4% are requesting a massive amount of management time for very little return (this was the short sighted scope, but it had nefarious consequences on supply); HAP rules/processes must be the worst in terms of sucking the lifeblood of the landlord, ... I just cannot understand how some landlords can even consider HAP tenants, when there is plenty of working people who need accommodation; zealous council inspectors using and abusing the one size fits all stupid minimum standards for rented housing regulations are another massive drain on time (why should I provide white appliances and maintain them? why should I provide furnished lettings? why a vent extractor has to be on a separate circuit than the light of a bathroom? several parts of the regulations and their interpretation by the council inspectors are petty to the extreme, ....), ....

I am glad to hear you are planning an exit early next year. I hope you will get a good price for your properties before the market goes into a downturn. Being a landlord sounds like it is causing you a great deal of stress. I am a HAP tenant by the way and although I have a long track history of paying the rent on time not a day goes by when I do not worry about being evicted. It would not surprise me in the least if my Landlord decided to sell up as prices in my area have gone through the roof. I wouldn't blame the landlord for selling either as it might give her a life changing amount of cash for her retirement. However, for me this would change my life for the worse possibly causing homelessness. As a tenant you cannot win. Maybe this is why it upsets me to see a landlord go for automatic evictions to avoid part 4 tenancies and the security it gives tenants.

I've always said that if you don't bother your landlord your landlord won't bother you and only ever call my landlord for major issues like a broken boiler. I used to think that this was the key to successful renting but with the housing crisis it now seems more a matter of luck and my good track record counts for nothing.

I have to confess the HAP forms were a bit of a pain but weren't really rocket science, they just required a few documents and some info. Once set up the rent leaves my bank account automatically the day the money comes in and I don't have to think about it at all. The council asked me to set up the direct debit. I think you are being a little harsh about HAP but if this type of thing is causing you this much angst you are probably right to cease being a landlord.