Government backs legislation on ticket touting

Toast · 25-07-2018 11:12pm

Here's the Toutless statement on it (I edited this for Twitter.. an earlier version with slightly different wording might surface elsewhere).

As an Irish site, who've been providing an alternative to touts for 10 years, we at Toutless are very glad Ireland is making progress towards a law to fight touting.

It is our belief that touting is an unfair and unnecessary manipulation of supply and demand that causes huge additional cost to ordinary people and their families who just wish to enjoy music and sporting events at the end of the day.

While we note there are some details of the proposed law we'd do differently we understand drafting legislation like this is essentially a compromise and this is a great first step.

We submitted suggestions to the public consultation that advised in drafting this bill and discussed with representatives from the Department of Business, Enterprise and Innovation in person in relation to our thoughts on the matters. We're glad to have been part of the process.

No law is 100% effective but that is not a reason not to have one. We hope to see this stop companies reserving or mass obtaining pools of tickets for upsale. It should mean classified sites have to prevent listing over cost price. It should mean a stop to touting outside venues.

If implemented correctly it will mean Touts find it harder to get as well as to sell tickets.

Regular people should not be restricted in transferring tickets at face value. Promoters and artists demanding ID to stop touting should no longer be necessary.

This law should be a step towards the end of profiteering touts who manipulate the market for their gain. This has always been our goal with Toutless. Face value transactions are still possible and are almost always a better deal for all than going through a middleman.

We're excited what the future can bring with true digital tickets that can be tracked and transferred securely. Laws protecting consumers such as this can mean users can be protected from excessive transfer fees when the technology arrives.

We're glad for all the support and help we've had through the years which show many people think the same as us regards touts. We'll continue to operate as long as our services are required and welcome further progress towards wiping out touting.

As can be taken from above I believe perfect is the enemy of good. I'd rather get something out there and see what happens and tweak it rather than sit around with a million "what aboutisms" suffocating it in the cot.

I've clarified before I see being on this side of the fight as being a moral stance. At a certain point in the argument it will break down to doing what you feel is right. There are plenty of places in society where the market is controlled to protect people. There are places where it is not where it should probably be as well in my mind. Pointing around looking for analogies is a circular argument (I know.. I've done it enough).

Plenty of activities that make profit usually add value by maintaining or improving something. I feel touting just denies supply. I'm sure there are plenty of situations where that happens in the world but it usually comes down to your beliefs if you see that as being savvy or a dick.

cruhoortwunk · 26-07-2018 11:27am

Speaking as a tout this is shít news. Depends how they implement it though, and whether there are workarounds.
Fifa banned resales for the World Cup, but Viagogo went ahead with resale for it regardless.

flasher0030 · 26-07-2018 11:38am

cruhoortwunk wrote: »

Speaking as a tout this is shít news. Depends how they implement it though, and whether there are workarounds.
Fifa banned resales for the World Cup, but Viagogo went ahead with resale for it regardless.

Ah. I remember you. You tried to play all innocent for some gig years ago, condemning those who touted. And then it turned out it was you who was doing the touting. No remorse at all.

rubadub · 26-07-2018 11:53am

cruhoortwunk wrote: »

Fifa banned resales for the World Cup, but Viagogo went ahead with resale for it regardless.

Then they probably could have done what ed sheeran did, track these tickets on viagogo and refuse people entry who bought them, giving viagogo a very bad name and costing them a lot in admin.

cruhoortwunk · 26-07-2018 1:04pm

flasher0030 wrote: »

Ah. I remember you. You tried to play all innocent for some gig years ago, condemning those who touted. And then it turned out it was you who was doing the touting. No remorse at all.

Touting at source from the primary sellers like ticketmaster is far worse than the armchair tout.
That's what I was condemning

cruhoortwunk · 26-07-2018 1:06pm

rubadub wrote: »

Then they probably could have done what ed sheeran did, track these tickets on viagogo and refuse people entry who bought them, giving viagogo a very bad name and costing them a lot in admin.

They would need the buyer to tell them the tickets came from viagogo. I doubt any buyer would do that and risk his tickets

rubadub · 26-07-2018 1:10pm

cruhoortwunk wrote: »

They would need the buyer to tell them the tickets came from viagogo. I doubt any buyer would do that and risk his tickets

Buyers of the ed sheeran tickets were not asked, they detected it somehow, dunno if they could monitor or automatically record tickets on viagogo. They were majorly stung by the sounds of it.

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2018/may/25/fans-left-with-invalid-tickets-in-ed-sheeran-anti-tout-scheme-viagogo

flasher0030 · 26-07-2018 1:31pm

cruhoortwunk wrote: »

Touting at source from the primary sellers like ticketmaster is far worse than the armchair tout.
That's what I was condemning

Please don't take the moral high-ground. It's very easy to access those posts from last year. You sold an Ed Sheeran ticket for over €300 on Seatwave. But now you're saying that the likes of ticketmaster and Seatwave are the problem.
I'd be interested in your opinion:-
1. Do you view it as an opportunity for you to make a quick buck, or
2. Or do you view it as exploitation of a certain mass of people i.e. those that genuinely want to go to a gig

cruhoortwunk · 26-07-2018 2:17pm

flasher0030 wrote: »

Please don't take the moral high-ground. It's very easy to access those posts from last year. You sold an Ed Sheeran ticket for over €300 on Seatwave. But now you're saying that the likes of ticketmaster and Seatwave are the problem.
I'd be interested in your opinion:-
1. Do you view it as an opportunity for you to make a quick buck, or
2. Or do you view it as exploitation of a certain mass of people i.e. those that genuinely want to go to a gig

It was Eddie Vedder.

I see it as an opportunity for a quick buck, but if people are willing to pay these kind of prices (which I wouldn't pay myself), then it's supply and demand. Market decides the price. I often made losses on gigs when they added extra dates after one date sold out. It's the risk I take.

I stand by the point that TM touting (keeping large volumes of tickets away from general sale and putting them straight on their own resale site) is far worse than individuals buying up 4 tickets and reselling.

flasher0030 · 26-07-2018 3:00pm

cruhoortwunk wrote: »

It was Eddie Vedder.

I see it as an opportunity for a quick buck, but if people are willing to pay these kind of prices (which I wouldn't pay myself), then it's supply and demand. Market decides the price. I often made losses on gigs when they added extra dates after one date sold out. It's the risk I take.

I stand by the point that TM touting (keeping large volumes of tickets away from general sale and putting them straight on their own resale site) is far worse than individuals buying up 4 tickets and reselling.

Edit - I meant Eddie Vedder.
I hope the Revenue Commissioners are not listening in. I'm sure they would like to know about your little venture, which you consider falls into the general principles of economics.
The general supply/demand curve relates to sales/purchases on an open trades/services market. That principle does not apply to re-selling/black market activity being an external force.
E.g. if 15,000 radiohead fans were looking for tickets for a gig in a 10,000 capacity venue, then that’s obviously a genuine case, and getting a ticket can be a lottery. But if you have a case where, again, the capacity is 10,000, and you have 10,000 radiohead fans subscribing for tickets, along with 2,000 touts looking to exploit, then that’s not a genuine case of supply v demand.

In any case, your take on things is not really relevant. You’ve already showed your hypocrisy in last years posts – trying to claim outcry at touts on Seatwave, whilst doing the very same thing yourself. When you did that, how did you not think that someone would see that you had open offers on show? Are you extremely naïve? Coming on here spouting about being a tout, and seemingly proud of it would lend itself towards that.

cruhoortwunk · 26-07-2018 3:28pm

flasher0030 wrote: »

Edit - I meant Eddie Vedder.
I hope the Revenue Commissioners are not listening in. I'm sure they would like to know about your little venture, which you consider falls into the general principles of economics.
The general supply/demand curve relates to sales/purchases on an open trades/services market. That principle does not apply to re-selling/black market activity being an external force.
E.g. if 15,000 radiohead fans were looking for tickets for a gig in a 10,000 capacity venue, then that’s obviously a genuine case, and getting a ticket can be a lottery. But if you have a case where, again, the capacity is 10,000, and you have 10,000 radiohead fans subscribing for tickets, along with 2,000 touts looking to exploit, then that’s not a genuine case of supply v demand.

In any case, your take on things is not really relevant. You’ve already showed your hypocrisy in last years posts – trying to claim outcry at touts on Seatwave, whilst doing the very same thing yourself. When you did that, how did you not think that someone would see that you had open offers on show? Are you extremely naïve? Coming on here spouting about being a tout, and seemingly proud of it would lend itself towards that.

It all goes through the revenue, there's nothing illegal about it.
Black market is illegal activity, this is not in any way illegal (yet)
You sound very bitter, were you the one that bought my Eddie Vedder tickets? How was the show?

Zardoz · 26-07-2018 6:18pm

phunkadelic wrote: »

Might be true, but the largest promoter in Ireland (MCD), is in with Ticketmaster/Live Nation in a big, big way.
They jointly own Festival Republic. And Denis Desmond of MCD is chairman of Live Nation UK and Ireland.

Livenation/Ticketmaster have too much control ,they have become a behemoth.

https://dancingastronaut.com/2018/04/us-department-justice-pins-live-nation-potential-monopoly/
https://newrepublic.com/article/148419/ticket-monopoly-worse-ever-thanks-obama

They are making cocaine money according to the CEO ,Rapino .
He makes no secret of how his goal is to extract as much money as possible from the fans.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/man-behind-worlds-biggest-ticket-8169150
http://www.completemusicupdate.com/article/emails-in-songkick-case-see-live-nation-dissing-team-adele/

Denis Desmond owns MCD ,the Olympia and the Gaeity ,he is Chairman of Livenation Uk who own the 3arena and manage the Bord Gais theatre.
Livenation manage the Olympia and the Gaeity.

Along with Aiken its basically a cartel in this country.

Is it any wonder ticket prices are so high in Ireland compared with the UK and Europe ?

The Insurance and transport red herrings dont add up ,before someone says they do.

Mongfinder General · 27-07-2018 8:21am

cruhoortwunk wrote: »

It all goes through the revenue, there's nothing illegal about it.
Black market is illegal activity, this is not in any way illegal (yet)
You sound very bitter, were you the one that bought my Eddie Vedder tickets? How was the show?

Eacactly hiw does it all go through the revenue?

flasher0030 · 27-07-2018 9:51am

Mongfinder General wrote: »

Eacactly hiw does it all go through the revenue?

I’m sure he’s well aware that Revenue now trawl through the likes of Facebook, Twitter, forums like askaboutmoney, boards etc. looking for any tax non-compliance.
They also get their information from anonymous tip-offs. Just saying.

TheIrishGrover · 27-07-2018 12:39pm

Look, I think we can all agree that touts are scum: From corporate to armchair. There really is no difference. We know that and they know that. No matter what they tell themselves. Just because the person isn't doing anything illegal doesn't mean they are not scum. Whenever something comes up I buy a couple more than I need if at all possible purely to keep them out of the grubby the paws of touts. I have NEVER sold a ticket above what I paid apart from maybe rounding up a few cents to the nearest Euro. And I never will.

But let's be realistic: This will change nothing. All that will happen is that these scum will charge face value for the ticket and then lash on another 100 euro for handling and postage etc.

About the only light was when Taylor swift and The Stones had such trouble selling their tickets. Hopefully the touts got a bit of a financial beating.

I am not going to reply/debate/apologise for my use of the term scum

27-07-2018 4:33pm

rubadub wrote: »

Buyers of the ed sheeran tickets were not asked, they detected it somehow, dunno if they could monitor or automatically record tickets on viagogo. They were majorly stung by the sounds of it.

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2018/may/25/fans-left-with-invalid-tickets-in-ed-sheeran-anti-tout-scheme-viagogo

I imagine the sellers had photos of the ticket incl. barcode on Viagogo. TM saw, cancelled the tickets. Tout sold them on anyway.

Amirani · 27-07-2018 5:20pm

TheIrishGrover wrote: »

Look, I think we can all agree that touts are scum: From corporate to armchair. There really is no difference. We know that and they know that. No matter what they tell themselves. Just because the person isn't doing anything illegal doesn't mean they are not scum. Whenever something comes up I buy a couple more than I need if at all possible purely to keep them out of the grubby the paws of touts. I have NEVER sold a ticket above what I paid apart from maybe rounding up a few cents to the nearest Euro. And I never will.

So you intentionally buy more tickets than you need, therefore preventing genuine fans the opportunity to buy them in the primary market? Pretty "scummy" in my book.

MadYaker · 23-09-2018 11:09am

Saw this on reddit this morning https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/ticketmaster-resellers-lawsuits-1.4834668

The effort by Hagens Berman follows a CBC News/Toronto Star investigation that found Ticketmaster representatives at a Las Vegas convention were recruiting professional scalpers to use a web-based sales tool called TradeDesk to resell millions of dollars in tickets.

Company reps at the convention told undercover reporters posing as ticket brokers that their division turns a blind eye to scalpers who use hundreds of Ticketmaster online accounts to buy up seats — violating Ticketmaster's ticket-buying limits.

A class action lawsuit has been started against them in Canada and there'll likely be one in the US as well. Do people think this could be happening over here? Id be amazed if it isn't.

wacotaco · 12-01-2019 2:08pm

Viagogo's current stance:

https://fora.ie/viagogo-ticket-tout-laws-4431358-Jan2019/

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/--896829.html

okidoki987 · 12-01-2019 10:15pm

The most recent accounts for Viagogo’s Irish operation show it made a profit of €233,000 during 2017, up from €119,000 the previous year.

I'd say that is way under stated considering how many tickets are on the site for each concert and considering they take a fee from both sellers and buyers.

As part of a submission to the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport last year, Viagogo said that 75% of tickets on its site sell for a price above the face value and that 90% of its users sell fewer than 10 tickets annually.

Again suspect figures.
75% must be closer to 95% as I've only heard or seen tickets selling for under face once.
Also even is it was 75%, Viagogo still take a cut (twice) from all those sales.

90% sell fewer than 10 tickets?

So who is selling all their tickets then?

phunkadelic · 14-01-2019 11:24am

Bit of creative accounting going on I'd say. They are a Swiss company, and it's very easy to keep profits private in Switzerland. I would say they are funneling most of their profits via the Swiss arm.

Similar to how Google and facebook put their revenue through Ireland to get the low corp tax rate.