Retention Planning for Velux Window to Front

CROTTS

Hi,
Can someone please give me advice.
Selling house and there is a velux window to the front of house(2 storey semi detached) house.
My Auctioneer says I need to apply for retention planning before sale and I can see you do need planning even though this was put in over 20 years ago, but will planning department grant permission??
Don’t want to get architect on board and do all the drawings etc and apply for it and then it’s refused.
Has anyone got planning for this before?
Thanks

drunkmonkey

Did you do an attic conversion that could be a bigger problem. Very much doubt you'll be refused the velux the local guys will know.

CROTTS

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Did you do an attic conversion that could be a bigger problem. Very much doubt you'll be refused the velux the local guys will know.

This is family home and was done years ago and didn’t think we would run into this problem now.
So you think planning will be granted for the velux?

drunkmonkey

I don't think they can refuse but you have to go through the motions.

CROTTS

drunkmonkey wrote: »

I don't think they can refuse but you have to go through the motions.

Good to hear, I will go through the expensive motions for something so small, just to get the house ok for sale and will post back, as nothing out there on this whether anyone ever got the retention planning.
Thanks for taking time to get back to me.

drunkmonkey

I've to go for it if I ever decide to sell, architect said nothing to worry about. Get the closest guy to your house to just drop out and have a look before he starts charging.

CROTTS

drunkmonkey wrote: »

I've to go for it if I ever decide to sell, architect said nothing to worry about. Get the closest guy to your house to just drop out and have a look before he starts charging.

There are 8 already in the estate with 7 velux windows out the front so don’t think they could refuse really as none of the houses would ever be able to sell in the future and were all done over 20 years ago. I will let you know and got a price of €1230 for everything from local architect. Is that good do you think?

JonathonS

CROTTS wrote: »

... got a price of €1230 for everything from local architect. Is that good do you think?

An architect will charge his usual fee, which is fair enough, but you don't need that level of expertise for this. I had an architectural technician do a similar job for €600 - site visit, drawings and planning application.

That was in Dun Laoghaire, the Council charged me a hefty sum for planning contributions.

Gumbo

drunkmonkey wrote: »

I don't think they can refuse but you have to go through the motions.

Technically they can refuse the retention if they do not want to set a sub standard precedent for this type of development.

CROTTS wrote: »

There are 8 already in the estate with 7 velux windows out the front so don’t think they could refuse really as none of the houses would ever be able to sell in the future and were all done over 20 years ago. I will let you know and got a price of €1230 for everything from local architect. Is that good do you think?

Does the fee include all costs like newspaper, app fee, prints and maps etc?
Where are you based?

CROTTS

JonathonS wrote: »

An architect will charge his usual fee, which is fair enough, but you don't need that level of expertise for this. I had an architectural technician do a similar job for €600 - site visit, drawings and planning application.

That was in Dun Laoghaire, the Council charged me a hefty sum for planning contributions.

Thanks for that info. When you say a hefty fee for planning contributions what did that cost and towards what?

CROTTS

kceire wrote: »

Technically they can refuse the retention if they do not want to set a sub standard precedent for this type of development.



Does the fee include all costs like newspaper, app fee, prints and maps etc?
Where are you based?

Yes fee included all as you mentioned above.
When you say they may refuse retention not to set a sub standard precedent that’s my fear, having paid the €1230, it would be money down the drain and back to square one with regards to selling house.

CROTTS

JonathonS wrote: »

An architect will charge his usual fee, which is fair enough, but you don't need that level of expertise for this. I had an architectural technician do a similar job for €600 - site visit, drawings and planning application.

That was in Dun Laoghaire, the Council charged me a hefty sum for planning contributions.

Can you tell me was yours just for retention of a velux to the front of the house?
Our House is in Cork City.

Silent Running

I recently sold a house that had the hall door moved and attic converted, both more than 20 years ago. I got the two certified as properly constructed and the planning permission was not required. If I remember correctly - and I'm not any kind of an expert on this kind of thing - once the change has been in place for 7 years or more, and there has been no action taken by the local council, planning permission is assumed as granted (or some terminology like that).

I could PM you the number of the engineer I used if you think it would help. A nice guy and happy to talk about it.

Silent Running

CROTTS wrote: »

Can you tell me was yours just for retention of a velux to the front of the house?
Our House is in Cork City.

Ah, my guy's in Dublin. Ask your solicitor about the scenario I outlined above.

drunkmonkey

The buyers solicitor won't be happy with that they'll want to see permission. It's not a clean sale without it.

Silent Running

drunkmonkey wrote: »

The buyers solicitor won't be happy with that they'll want to see permission. It's not a clean sale without it.

My buyers' solicitor was happy enough.

Calahonda52

drunkmonkey wrote: »

I don't think they can refuse but you have to go through the motions.

yes they can.

OP have any of the other houses in the estate changed hands lately?
have you looked at the LA site to see if any of them applied for retention, sold or not?

Gumbo

CROTTS wrote: »

Yes fee included all as you mentioned above.
When you say they may refuse retention not to set a sub standard precedent that’s my fear, having paid the €1230, it would be money down the drain and back to square one with regards to selling house.

That's the risk you take with any planning application. The fees still need to be paid.

Silent Running wrote: »

I recently sold a house that had the hall door moved and attic converted, both more than 20 years ago. I got the two certified as properly constructed and the planning permission was not required. If I remember correctly - and I'm not any kind of an expert on this kind of thing - once the change has been in place for 7 years or more, and there has been no action taken by the local council, planning permission is assumed as granted (or some terminology like that).

I could PM you the number of the engineer I used if you think it would help. A nice guy and happy to talk about it.

This is incorrect. The 7 year rule relates to the statue of limitations that the Planning Enforcement Dept can order the removal of the structure or works. It is not assumed planning granted, and the enforcement file on the property will remain as the property is still in a non compliant state, and any further planning applications or exempted development are now barred.

If the works do not require planning as in your case (attic/front door), then a cert of exemption can be issued and the 7 year rule is irrelevant.

CROTTS

Silent Running wrote: »

Ah, my guy's in Dublin. Ask your solicitor about the scenario I outlined above.

Thank you, but see it’s such a grey area and if it was stated in black and white you have to apply for retention for front velux and you will get planning then I’d be fine paying the fees and go with it.
That’s why I posted here to see if anyone before came across exact same situation when selling house.
That 7 year is only fine- as in council can’t ask you to remove the velux but I still don’t have a cert when selling.
Thanks and will run it by my solicitor.

drunkmonkey

Silent Running wrote: »

My buyers' solicitor was happy enough.

Mine wasn't, all depends on how thorough the solicitor is I suppose.

CROTTS

kceire wrote: »

That's the risk you take with any planning application. The fees still need to be paid.



This is incorrect. The 7 year rule relates to the statue of limitations that the Planning Enforcement Dept can order the removal of the structure or works. It is not assumed planning granted, and the enforcement file on the property will remain as the property is still in a non compliant state, and any further planning applications or exempted development are now barred.

If the works do not require planning as in your case (attic/front door), then a cert of exemption can be issued and the 7 year rule is irrelevant.

Totally agree with what you have said about 7 year rule as have read that.
I’m still totally confused. So our velux was put in over 20 years ago and if I go about putting in for retention planning I might not be guaranteed getting it granted as it might start a precedent??
So back to square one then and no Cert can be issued when we sell the house?
Does that mean if refuses new buyer can never apply for planning on the house?
I’d appreciate all replies to get this sorted. Thanks in advance.

CROTTS

Calahonda52 wrote: »

yes they can.

OP have any of the other houses in the estate changed hands lately?
have you looked at the LA site to see if any of them applied for retention, sold or not?

Would you believe we are the first one to sell who has velux to the front, other houses have sold but of course all without velux windows. Typical ours would be first. It’s an old estate so all attic velux windows would all have been put in over 20 years ago.
How can I check to see if any ever did apply for retention even if they haven’t sold but wanted it done.
Where do I check this out??

CROTTS

Silent Running wrote: »

My buyers' solicitor was happy enough.

Think yours is a little different to mine. You didn’t have a velux window to the front in the attic did you??

josip

The 7 years rule is often misunderstood.
The council cannot ask you to remove/undo anything after 7 years, but they don't have to give you retention.
This can be a problem when it comes to selling and your effective market has shrunk to either buyers whose solicitors don't do a thorough job or cash buyers who may not care.
But buyers who require a mortgage and who have a thorough solicitor will have difficulty getting a mortgage on the property.

CROTTS

josip wrote: »

The 7 years rule is often misunderstood.
The council cannot ask you to remove/undo anything after 7 years, but they don't have to give you retention.
This can be a problem when it comes to selling and your effective market has shrunk to either buyers whose solicitors don't do a thorough job or cash buyers who may not care.
But buyers who require a mortgage and who have a thorough solicitor will have difficulty getting a mortgage on the property.

It’s a total joke really, all for a small velux that doesn’t look onto anyone only a big green area!
I mean why do they make things so difficult for people.
Yes what your last 2 lines state is what my auctioneer state, so means we can only get a cash buyer, or else no sale of the house!!
We can always take out the velux as dad still has the old tiles would you believe!! Maybe the only way to go to get this over the line and sold!!
Many thanks for your message.

Silent Running

CROTTS wrote: »

Think yours is a little different to mine. You didn’t have a velux window to the front in the attic did you??

Different all right. I was just dredging my experience up and thought it might help. Obviously not. I did say I was no expert.

drunkmonkey

Even a cash buyer with a good solicitor won't buy it as if they want to flip it quick they'll still need permission.
Don't be in a rush to sell my mate got a little delayed selling his in cork and ended up getting way more than he expected with a few late bidders.

Penn

CROTTS wrote: »

It’s a total joke really, all for a small velux that doesn’t look onto anyone only a big green area!
I mean why do they make things so difficult for people.

The rules have to apply to all. What your particular velux looks out onto may not be the same as what someone else's velux looks out onto (eg. overlooking someone's property). Your velux being small doesn't mean everyone else's might be. As such, the rules have to be made to suit all scenarios.

Ultimately, they're not making things difficult for you. Planning should have been sought for the velux at the time. Having to go for retention permission now is a consequence of not doing that.

That said, I'd say they're very unlikely to refuse given what you've said and the fact it's been there for 20 years, and that other neighbouring houses also have them.

BryanF

Silent Running wrote: »

I recently sold a house that had the hall door moved and attic converted, both more than 20 years ago. I got the two certified as properly constructed and the planning permission was not required. If I remember correctly - and I'm not any kind of an expert on this kind of thing - once the change has been in place for 7 years or more, and there has been no action taken by the local council, planning permission is assumed as granted (or some terminology like that).

I could PM you the number of the engineer I used if you think it would help. A nice guy and happy to talk about it.

Planning is not ‘assumed as granted’ it simply that planning enforcement can’t be enacted (assuming 7 years (+ holidays) from end of planning grant time frame

Gumbo

CROTTS wrote: »

Totally agree with what you have said about 7 year rule as have read that.
I’m still totally confused. So our velux was put in over 20 years ago and if I go about putting in for retention planning I might not be guaranteed getting it granted as it might start a precedent??
So back to square one then and no Cert can be issued when we sell the house?
Does that mean if refuses new buyer can never apply for planning on the house?
I’d appreciate all replies to get this sorted. Thanks in advance.

Of planning is refused, they you remove the Velux and sell the house. Sorted.

CROTTS

CROTTS wrote: »

Think yours is a little different to mine. You didn’t have a velux window to the front in the attic did you??

Thanks for your input Silentrunning, even though a little different to mine. Every opinion counts.

CROTTS

kceire wrote: »

Of planning is refused, they you remove the Velux and sell the house. Sorted.

Ok so better and cheaper option is to remove the window and cover back up with old tiles we have in storage. All such a waste of time.
The annoying thing is if the velux was put in the back of would be exempt from planning and over looks peoples back gardens, but at the front doesn’t over look anyone!! So frustrating, planning rules.

josip

Have you tried to make an appointment with a planner in the council?
I might be wrong, but I thought you could make an appointment to discuss your issue with them before you submit your application.
Although they are not in a position to say whether your application will be successful or not, it's possible to read between the lines of the advice they're giving, and help decide whether you want to apply or remove the window.

[Edit]
A Pre Planning Consultation such as this with SDCC
https://www.sdcc.ie/en/services/planning/planning-applications/pre-planning-guidance-and-consultation/

There must have been a good reason the window was put in towards the front.
Even a DIYer would know to keep a single velux to the back, regardless of gardens/greens/etc.
Putting it on the front, unless there was a good reason, was asking for trouble.

CROTTS

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Even a cash buyer with a good solicitor won't buy it as if they want to flip it quick they'll still need permission.
Don't be in a rush to sell my mate got a little delayed selling his in cork and ended up getting way more than he expected with a few late bidders.

That’s so true!! I won’t rush the sale and do the necessary things to have it complaint. Thanks for your help.

CROTTS

josip wrote: »

Have you tried to make an appointment with a planner in the council?
I might be wrong, but I thought you could make an appointment to discuss your issue with them before you submit your application.
Although they are not in a position to say whether your application will be successful or not, it's possible to read between the lines of the advice they're giving, and help decide whether you want to apply or remove the window.

[Edit]
A Pre Planning Consultation such as this with SDCC
https://www.sdcc.ie/en/services/planning/planning-applications/pre-planning-guidance-and-consultation/

There must have been a good reason the window was put in towards the front.
Even a DIYer would know to keep a single velux to the back, regardless of gardens/greens/etc.
Putting it on the front, unless there was a good reason, was asking for trouble.

I haven’t called to local planning office yet but intend too next week to discuss.
It was put in over 20 years ago as were all the others in the estate. I suppose at the time none of the neighbours thought they would come across this problem!

Stanford

Silent Running wrote: »

I recently sold a house that had the hall door moved and attic converted, both more than 20 years ago. I got the two certified as properly constructed and the planning permission was not required. If I remember correctly - and I'm not any kind of an expert on this kind of thing - once the change has been in place for 7 years or more, and there has been no action taken by the local council, planning permission is assumed as granted (or some terminology like that).

I could PM you the number of the engineer I used if you think it would help. A nice guy and happy to talk about it.

The "7 year rule" applies to enforcement action, planning is de facto granted after 7 years

http://www.engineersjournal.ie/2013/07/11/planning-permission-enforcement-and-the-seven-year-myth/

Stanford

Sorry I meant planning is NOT DEFACTO GRANTED

Penn

CROTTS wrote: »

I haven’t called to local planning office yet but intend too next week to discuss.

Just to note, you can't just drop in and chat to a planner. You can either call them or arrange a full pre-planning meeting with them (for which you have to submit an application form (and preferably a drawing/sketch/map) so they can review the situation in advance).

Sleeper12

CROTTS wrote:

There are 8 already in the estate with 7 velux windows out the front so don’t think they could refuse really as none of the houses would ever be able to sell in the future and were all done over 20 years ago. I will let you know and got a price of €1230 for everything from local architect. Is that good do you think?

Why would you use an architect? You just want retention of the two windows. This is something that you can do yourself. Even if you had an extention you needed retention for you still wouldn't need an architect.

Gumbo

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Why would you use an architect? You just want retention of the two windows. This is something that you can do yourself. Even if you had an extention you needed retention for you still wouldn't need an architect.

Assuming because he needs drawings, site measurements, newspaper notices etc
Doesn’t have to be architect, that but I agree with, can be a technical or draightsman or simply anybody with the competency and knowledge on how to lodge a planning application.

Most people wouldn’t know how to do these and would make a mess of the process and cause invalidations and increased costs due to lodging again.

Also, the drawings have to be scaled correctly and reflect what’s on site.

It’s the same reason why most people won’t change a light fitting, technically it’s easy but some people are more comfortable letting someone take care of the whole process.

Sleeper12

kceire wrote:

Most people wouldn’t know how to do these and would make a mess of the process and cause invalidations and increased costs due to lodging again.

Local council office will explain details. It's only two windows. It's not rocket science. Saving 1k to 1.5k is worth putting a few hours into it yourself.

wildwillow

Was the velux the only change made or is there an attic conversion. If converted to living space you open a whole new can of worms re ceiling heights etc. The velux will probably not be compliant with fire regulations and won't get retention. Putting the building back is the easiest solution, and you can refer to the attic as storage space and not a room.

Gumbo

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Local council office will explain details. It's only two windows. It's not rocket science. Saving 1k to 1.5k is worth putting a few hours into it yourself.

They will only guide you in telling you what’s required.
They won’t prepare the drawings for you and no amount of guidance can do that unless you know what your doing.

You still need full house floor plans, elevations showing the subject house and the houses either side of you, to scale.

Your right, it’s not rocket science but it might as well be to someone when they are trying to get 6 coooes of each drawing done to scale.

CROTTS

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Why would you use an architect? You just want retention of the two windows. This is something that you can do yourself. Even if you had an extention you needed retention for you still wouldn't need an architect.

It’s only 1 velux window to the front not 2 but drawings and op map etc must be sent to planning and I wouldn’t know how to do drawings to scale as required so that’s why I was going down the route of appointing an architect.
Maybe if I get architect to do the drawings I can then do the rest myself, notice on paper, site notice, application form. Thanks for advice.

CROTTS

kceire wrote: »

They will only guide you in telling you what’s required.
They won’t prepare the drawings for you and no amount of guidance can do that unless you know what your doing.

You still need full house floor plans, elevations showing the subject house and the houses either side of you, to scale.

Your right, it’s not rocket science but it might as well be to someone when they are trying to get 6 coooes of each drawing done to scale.

Thanks for message, as yes it maybe rocket science to some but I couldn’t do drawings and floor measurements etc myself. I could do the rest though!

CROTTS

wildwillow wrote: »

Was the velux the only change made or is there an attic conversion. If converted to living space you open a whole new can of worms re ceiling heights etc. The velux will probably not be compliant with fire regulations and won't get retention. Putting the building back is the easiest solution, and you can refer to the attic as storage space and not a room.

It’s not used as a bedroom only for storage. Why wouldn’t the velux be fire complaint? Is it only if used as a bedroom, that’s the case is it ok if used as storage room?

CROTTS

Penn wrote: »

Just to note, you can't just drop in and chat to a planner. You can either call them or arrange a full pre-planning meeting with them (for which you have to submit an application form (and preferably a drawing/sketch/map) so they can review the situation in advance).

Thanks very much for that. I will call and arrange a pre plan meeting.

Gumbo

CROTTS wrote: »

It’s only 1 velux window to the front not 2 but drawings and op map etc must be sent to planning and I wouldn’t know how to do drawings to scale as required so that’s why I was going down the route of appointing an architect.
Maybe if I get architect to do the drawings I can then do the rest myself, notice on paper, site notice, application form. Thanks for advice.

CROTTS wrote: »

Thanks for message, as yes it maybe rocket science to some but I couldn’t do drawings and floor measurements etc myself. I could do the rest though!

Yes it’s possible.
The wording on the app form form has to match word for word thensite notice and newspaper notice.

Then the site notice has a different end paragraph than the newspaper so you must make sure it all ties together.

Ask around some friends and see if there’s any recommendations.

CROTTS

kceire wrote: »

Yes it’s possible.
The wording on the app form form has to match word for word thensite notice and newspaper notice.

Then the site notice has a different end paragraph than the newspaper so you must make sure it all ties together.

Ask around some friends and see if there’s any recommendations.

Thank you I will try and ask around. Advice much appreciated.

Gumbo

CROTTS wrote: »

. Why wouldn’t the velux be fire complaint? Is it only if used as a bedroom, that’s the case is it ok if used as storage room?

https://www.housing.gov.ie/sites/default/files/migrated-files/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/BuildingStandards/FileDownLoad%2C1657%2Cen.pdf

CROTTS

kceire wrote: »

https://www.housing.gov.ie/sites/default/files/migrated-files/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/BuildingStandards/FileDownLoad%2C1657%2Cen.pdf

Thanks for attachment. Will print and read over.
Much appreciated Kceire.