Irish Laws apply while Abroad?

Daithi_115

Sorry if this is the wrong thread

While abroad US citizens are subject US law while traveling by a US Passport. E.g if prostitution is legal in one country, but the US citizen comes from a state where prostitution illegal. If there is evidence that that person partook in prostitution that person could be arrested in the US for a crime they in a country where it was perfectly legal.

Does the same apply for Irish Citizens, must I abide by Irish laws and the laws of the country I am in?

NinetyTwoTeam

Daithi_115 wrote: »

Sorry if this is the wrong thread

While abroad US citizens are subject US law while traveling by a US Passport. E.g if prostitution is legal in one country, but the US citizen comes from a state where prostitution illegal. If there is evidence that that person partook in prostitution that person could be arrested in the US for a crime they in a country where it was perfectly legal.

Does the same apply for Irish Citizens, must I abide by Irish laws and the laws of the country I am in?

that whole thing about the US laws may be technically true but it is only enforced for 'sex tourism' ie: going abroad to have sex with minors. France has a similar one.

it's far more important to know the laws of the country you are visiting, and abide by them. those laws are the ones local police will enforce, they won't know the ones from Ireland.

for example, in the US you have free speech, and can get away with saying a lot of things. like, calling a policeman a nasty name, for example. here they can charge you with threatening and abusive behavior for that. though i still wouldn't recommend calling a US cop a nasty name.

logistically it's pretty difficult to be prosecuted at home for something you do abroad that is legal in that country. how would they know unless you get arrested (which you wouldn't be, because you didn't break the foreign country's law)

Pat Mustard

Certain crimes have extra territorial effect and can be prosecuted at home although committed abroad.

Ian Bailey (not a French citizen) has spoken about the possibility of prosecution by the French authorities:
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/ian-bailey-fails-in-french-court-appeal-over-toscan-du-plantier-death-1.3482935

Asked if he was expecting to be convicted in his absence, which would lead to another attempt by the French to extradite him to France on a European Arrest Warrant as a convicted person to serve a sentence, Mr Bailey said he would face that challenge if it arises, but it could be some time away.

“There has to be a trial in absentia and that could take between several months and two years and I don’t know the outcome of that – I would anticipate down the lane that if I am tried in my absence and convicted then there would be a third European Arrest Warrant issued for me.

“So, yes I am braced for that possibility and a knock on the door late some night to find An Garda Siochana there again with another European Arrest Warrant but I’ve lived with that for a long time now and I will cross that bridge when I come to it.”

Peregrinus

Daithi_115 wrote: »

Sorry if this is the wrong thread

While abroad US citizens are subject US law while traveling by a US Passport. E.g if prostitution is legal in one country, but the US citizen comes from a state where prostitution illegal. If there is evidence that that person partook in prostitution that person could be arrested in the US for a crime they in a country where it was perfectly legal.

Does the same apply for Irish Citizens, must I abide by Irish laws and the laws of the country I am in?

Your premise is not correct. Most US laws do not apply outside the US; there are exceptions where the law expressly states that it applies outside the US, or where by necessary implication it must apply. US laws against sex tourism are one of the exceptions; they expressly apply to US residents no matter they are in the world. It does not matter whether the US resident is or is not a US citizen, or whether they travel on a US or another passport, or what state they come from.

The position in Ireland is similar; Irish laws apply only in Ireland, but there are exceptions which may be express or arise by necessary implication. There are Irish laws on counterfeiting, money laundering, terrorism, child sex tourism and female genital mutilation which apply abroad, among others.

GM228

Pat Mustard wrote: »

Certain crimes have extra territorial effect and can be prosecuted at home although committed abroad.

+1.

OP, see for example S71, S72 and S74 of the Criminal Justice Act 2006 and the AG vs Lee [2017] IESC 68 Supreme Court case on the matter. An important point to take from the Lee case is the court confirmed that an offence abroad is not "deemed" to have been committed in Ireland.

We also touched on the subject very briefly before:-

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=102154763

Another important Act worth noting is the Criminal Law (Jurisdiction) Act 1976 which allows for certain crimes in Northern Ireland to be tried here also.

Also Article 29.8 of the Constitution:-

The State may exercise extra-territorial jurisdiction in accordance with the generally recognised principles of international law.

coylemj

Daithi_115 wrote: »

While abroad US citizens are subject US law while traveling by a US Passport. E.g if prostitution is legal in one country, but the US citizen comes from a state where prostitution illegal. If there is evidence that that person partook in prostitution that person could be arrested in the US for a crime they in a country where it was perfectly legal.

What you're claiming is that if I am a US citizen from a conservative state like Utah and (let's assume) prostitution is illegal in my home state, this means that I can be convicted of engaging in prostitution in a foreign country where it might be perfectly legal for a local citizen to do so.

What about if I go to an adjacent state like Nevada where it's legal? Am I expected to observed the laws of my home state only when I leave the US or do I have a code of behaviour that follows me around the US based on my home state?

Can a citizen of Texas be convicted of exceeding the Texas speed limit (assume there is a statewide limit) when driving in Florida?

phildin

I don't think it applies between US states, my understanding is that it's a provision put in place by the federal government (not state) that applies to US residents when they are outside of the US. I guess it's possible that a state could try to legislate what you can do in another state; I don't think there's precedent for that but my legal knowledge of the US comes from reading the occasional law blog so take it with a pinch of salt.

As regards Irish law, my understanding is that women who have travelled abroad to get a termination of pregnancy are not considered to have broken any Irish law in doing so and that this is how you should expect Irish law to work in general unless there's some specific provision to the contrary.

coylemj

Daithi_115 wrote: »

Does the same apply for Irish Citizens, must I abide by Irish laws and the laws of the country I am in?

I read once that if you are in a foreign country and you board a Irish-registered ship or plane which is destined for Ireland then you can be prosecuted under the laws of Ireland if you commit a crime like assaulting a member of the crew or a fellow passenger. That would (if I read it correctly) still apply even if the plane was still on the runway or the ship had not yet sailed. If you did something that was illegal in the foreign country but which was not a crime in Ireland then they would have to call the local cops to haul you off and charge you in the local courts.

Under His Eye

I believe there are laws regarding the use of Irish passports that does apply abroad.

phater phagan

If a person visits Amsterdam and smokes marijuana, for instance, they cannot be prosecuted here in Ireland for it.

whomitconcerns

It would only be for certain federal offences. Not for state laws. If it don't involve the FBI don't worry about it.

coylemj wrote: »

Daithi_115 wrote: »

While abroad US citizens are subject US law while traveling by a US Passport. E.g if prostitution is legal in one country, but the US citizen comes from a state where prostitution illegal. If there is evidence that that person partook in prostitution that person could be arrested in the US for a crime they in a country where it was perfectly legal.

What you're claiming is that if I am a US citizen from a conservative state like Utah and (let's assume) prostitution is illegal in my home state, this means that I can be convicted of engaging in prostitution in a foreign country where it might be perfectly legal for a local citizen to do so.

What about if I go to an adjacent state like Nevada where it's legal? Am I expected to observed the laws of my home state only when I leave the US or do I have a code of behaviour that follows me around the US based on my home state?

Can a citizen of Texas be convicted of exceeding the Texas speed limit (assume there is a statewide limit) when driving in Florida?