roommate problems in shared apartment

greencurry2018

Hi all.

I moved into a shared apartment very recently.
The apartment is being rented out by an agency, and one person in the apartment (who I'll name Emma), handles the payment of rent/bills each month. Emma added the listing for the shared room on daft.ie, and accepted me into the room after I did a viewing of the apartment and agreed to some rules relating to a cleaning roster that everyone in the apartment would follow.

There are 6 people in the apartment (3 male, 3 female), and three rooms:
- a double room - Emma stays in this room.
- a twin room (two single beds).
- a room with three single beds - I stay in this room.

I found that, compared to other places I've seen in Dublin city, the apartment was nice, and in a great location.

So I moved into the apartment less than a month ago.
Upon moving in, I learned that I was replacing someone else (and apparently that person wasn't leaving on good terms with Emma).
Also I learned there was another roommate moving in (call him James) at the same time as me.

I got chatting to all of the roommates over the first two days, and found they were all very friendly and welcoming. Each of us is from a different country, which makes for interesting conversation and food.

Moving into the apartment came with the agreement that each member would have their own week where they would clean the apartment. This seemed very reasonable to me.

On the second day of moving in, James began his first cleaning session. I heard what sounded like a little bit of agitation from the kitchen as I sat in the sitting room.
Emma then came into the sitting room and told me to follow her to the kitchen where she would give myself and James a full demo of how to clean the apartment. It appeared that James was in the process of doing his first cleaning, and Emma was agitated by the method he was using to clean. She did not seem seriously agitated, but her tone towards James seemed to be a little more direct than I would expect to hear from someone instructing a new arrival how to properly clean.

So Emma started with the kitchen. To summarize the kitchen cleaning demo: the expected cleaning was surprisingly thorough. Apart from what I had expected would be typical for a kitchen cleaning, i.e. cleaning of the floor, dishes, removing rubbish etc., Emma covered almost everything that could be cleaned in the kitchen. What seemed to me a little excessive was that she expected the fridge to be completely cleaned out each week with cleaning liquid. She demonstrated removing all of the items in the fridge, one shelf at a time, thoroughly scrubbing after rinsing each shelf with cleaning liquid. She demonstrated cleaning the counter tops, oven, microwave, windows. Emma appeared to be getting more agitated as she progressed through the demo.

We were next shown how to clean the shared toilet. James said he had finished cleaning this in the previous two hours. Emma pointed to the sink and challenged James that it was not cleaned properly. At this point, James, perhaps feeling belittled, began to offer respectful responses to Emma's increasingly stern challenges. He said it's possible someone used the toilet since he had cleaned it, and suggested that that may have been why there was a hair in the sink. With the attention on the sink, Emma then crouched down and rubbed her finger on the floor behind the sink, and raised her finger out to us both, the finger now covered in a grey dust. She said that the cleaning had not been done correctly.

In the sitting room, Emma began further scrutinizing James recent cleaning. She began to move the couches into the center of the room and point to the dirt that had not been cleaned from under the furniture. She showed us how to dust the fireplace mantel, and walked the perimeter of the room to highlight some of the dust that had been left on the edges of the carpet and the wall skirting. The demo finished with an instruction on how to use the hoover. Emma showed us how to remove and reattach the hoover bin and said, in what sounded like a bitter/challenging tone, 'I want to see the both of you do this after me'. I was relieved to accomplish the task, feeling that I was being tensely watched.

Over the next few days I began reassuring myself that the cleaning thing would work out, that Emma perhaps had good reason to be strict, and that, should my own cleaning efforts turn out not to be satisfactory, I could suggest that we put our money together to get someone to clean the apartment weekly.

James was asked to redo the cleaning and so spent another 2 hours cleaning the apartment the following day. In total he said he had cleaned for about 4 hours. He confided in me that he felt Emma seemed rude, and the amount of cleaning she expected seemed excessive.

Over the next week I learned some more details about the cleaning arrangement.
James and I discovered that Emma, and one of the other roommates, do not partake in the weekly cleaning. Instead they have the duty of managing the recycling bins, and each week walking the rubbish bin out to the recycling center (apparently takes ~40 mins). James said to me that he felt this seemed to be unfair. He felt that we should rotate the cleaning/recycling among everyone. Trying to see from the perspective of Emma and the other housemate, I thought that perhaps the recycling chore may require considerable effort also. It did occur to me that Emma mentioned very little, if any, of this part of the arrangement until after the cleaning demo.

I continued to get along very well with all the housemates, including Emma. Though Emma is ~15 years older than James and myself (both of us being mid 20s), we share similar tastes in music and food, so we all seem to bond well in the evening times when we sometimes play music and share dinner. So most of the time things feel grand.

However, I observed over time that Emma has a tendency to give orders to the other housemates. Often in an aggressive/condescending tone, with a habit of throwing in a curse word. She challenges James about small things, such as leaving the light on in the kitchen.
On that issue, James left on the light because he had thought the other housemates may still be using the kitchen, that was reasonable given that it was only about 9pm and there were 5 of us in the apartment at that point. By this point James had become too familiar with challenges and having to explain himself.

I now feel that Emma is perhaps deliberately intimidating the other housemates, and that they don't really seem to challenge her or defend themselves, even when it would seem reasonable for them to do so. I think this may be because they each happen to be in difficult life situations, all of them seem not to be in their desired line of work, and don't seem to be financially secure; which I suspect may be partly why they fear getting on the wrong side of Emma. It seems Emma has made it known to everyone that she has kicked out previous housemates because they weren't cleaning properly.

So my cleaning week hasn't come around yet, and I anticipate it may not go so smootly.
I talked with James about the idea of us getting a cleaner and he said that he was thinking of the same thing after the cleaning demo that Emma had given. I talked with Emma and she said that she doesn't want a cleaner because she can't trust anyone else coming in to the apartment. I feel like if I asked the other 2 housemates that are part of the weekly cleaning roster, they may support getting a cleaner. But I'm doubtful that even having the majority support getting a cleaner would change Emma's position.

Finally, to get to the issue that inspired me to get some advice.
This weekend, James contacted me while I was away from the apartment and said that Emma had challenged him about not properly washing a glass, his defense was that someone else had used the glass, and that's why it wasn't clean. Emma apparently wasn't happy with this. He said she cursed at him and started banging the dishes, and threatened to kick him out of the apartment.

This seems to me to be completely unacceptable. James is an extremely friendly and respectful person, and gets on well with everyone in the apartment, so I'm certain that he didn't deserve to be challenged in such a way over this issue. He said that he doesn't think he can put up with it for much longer, and may move out of the apartment. I said we can talk to her together and try to resolve the problems. We've agreed that if we can't resolve the problems we'll both move out and find our own apartment to share.

Would much appreciate any thoughts/advice on this! Thanks.

tinpib

Hi OP.

Good thorough post. My own thoughts on this is that Emma is never, ever going to change no matter what you do. She also sounds exactly like the type of person that should never, ever, ever share with other people.

You sound very reasonable and level headed. None of which will do you any good living with her.

You possibly know deep down that this may not work out for you. I'd start keeping an eye out for some place else to live but of course that is easier said than done, you probably don't have many options.

All your suggestions are reasonable, you can try them out but be prepared for absolutely nothing making life easier. But for your sake I hope it does.

Sardonicat

Emma sounds like a very nasty piece of work. I think yourself and James should focus on moving out of there as soon as you can so you're not constanly living in fear of being evicted by this bully. Talking to her will get you nowhere. She comes across as unbalanced.

johnty56

Sounds likke Emma is a wagon. Best to move on. Her attitude won't change

Unanimous

I can't believe what I just read.

I would advise you to move out of that place. Start looking for another place and get her to kick you out when your rent expires.

Everyone should clean and be involved in everything. If she doesn't clean the house, she should not be giving a demo on how to clean the house.

I like cleaning thoroughly and I would understand the reason for cleaning a house thoroughly but there should be consideration of other people's time as well. If she would not get get someone to clean the place then she has no right to dictate how other people should do it. I can't believe she was complaining about dust behind the sink. I clean thoroughly but I go that deep once a month.

Please don't take that **** from her please!

fritzelly

So you all have a contract with the agency - Emma is the exact same as you
No excuse for her not doing her share of the cleaning, also why does she get a double bedroom to herself? Wouldn't be surprised if the rent is equally divided 5 ways.
I'd say get the other 3 housemates and have a meeting - if she wants a double room she pays 2 shares of the rent, she also has to do cleaning etc etc.

Sounds very much like you are paying for her lifestyle whilst being an inconvenience she puts up with.

the_syco

greencurry2018 wrote: »

The apartment is being rented out by an agency, and one person in the apartment (who I'll name Emma), handles the payment of rent/bills each month. Emma added the listing for the shared room on daft.ie, and accepted me into the room after I did a viewing of the apartment and agreed to some rules relating to a cleaning roster that everyone in the apartment would follow.

It sounds like Emma is subletting the house to you, and thus for all things considered; is your landlord.

And thus could probably evict you on a whim. And for little or no reason.

Leave if you can.

GreeBo

OP other than paying the bills Emma is on the same footing as the rest of you.
However, as the longest tennant she seems to have decided that she has power of the rest of you.

She doesnt.
I would suggest that you talk to all the other flatmates and agree on a roster or whatever method of distributing all the chores. Its nonsense that 2 people just bring out the bins while everyone else gets 2 hours of cleaning.

You are all being taken for a ride and its only working because you are all letting it work.
If you have reasonably and fairly cleaned the house when its your turn, then I would be ignoring any attempt at her to rub your nose in it like a bold dog.
You are both adults of equal footing, she can have a discussion if she wants, but its a discussion amongst equals, perhaps she needs reminding of that.

I would also enquire talk to the letting agency, they dont want to be replacing 3 people so quickly and might have no idea that Emma is the cause of all of this.

Bottom line, Emma is a bitch.
Are you 100% sure that she is not involved with the property ownership somehow?

PressRun

She sounds like a control freak. She doesn't want to do the cleaning, but also can't handle people doing things in a way that's different to her. It sounds like she has given you both the cleaning job because you're new and she feels she shouldn't have to do it because she was living there before you. She hasn't been transparent about the recycling issue either, so don't be surprised if she isn't being transparant about other things too.

Why does she have so much power/say over everything that happens in the house anyway, including getting people evicted? People shouldn't feel intimidated or under the thumb in their own apartment.

Honestly?
Run

Axwell

the_syco wrote: »

It sounds like Emma is subletting the house to you, and thus for all things considered; is your landlord.

And thus could probably evict you on a whim. And for little or no reason.

Leave if you can.

The apartment is rented out by an agency, just because she looks after paying the rent and bills makes her in no way considered the landlord. She is a tennant there the same way as anyone else.

OP if you like the property then you have the option of getting the group together and challenging Emma over the cleaning/recylcing duties assuming everyone feels the same way.

Failing that contact the agency - Emma has an attitude problem and is on a power trip because she is the longest tennant there. She has no authority over anyone or right to challenge how people clean the place or giving orders. If the group all feel the same way contact the agency and complain, you cant be expected to pay ren and live in some concentration camp run by a housemate.

Failing all that just leave but personally I wouldnt let some wagon be the reason I left without challenging her as a group or having the agency have a word. She has absolutely no power over anyone and there are 5 of you and 1 of her, she would quickly adjust her attitude if the agency was getting 5 people complaining about her.

James 007

There is cobwebs in the corner of the walls & ceiling. I think you need to clean this too.

someyoke

Willing to bet other housemates are dismayed at her behaviour too but probably not comfortable rocking the boat.

10 years older than you OP and have shared with a few people like this, as other posters pointed out she's a control freak and sounds poisonous.

You and James should definitely approach the other housemates, explain your positions and canvass opinions on cleaning/bin removal rotas plus the general attitude of this individual.

What she's doing is equivalent of a dog marking territory.

See what the other guys think, majority will rule at the end of the day. If she doesn't like any new plans you come up with she'll be off.

gwalk

How far away are the bins if it takes 40 minutes to take them out?

fritzelly

gwalk wrote: »

How far away are the bins if it takes 40 minutes to take them out?

Do you believe someone seriously walks that far with bin bags. 3 euro for a recycling bag you leave on the street

Browney7

Tell her to take a long walk off a short pier and find somewhere else to live. Life is too short

Mrs OBumble

Axwell wrote: »

The apartment is rented out by an agency, just because she looks after paying the rent and bills makes her in no way considered the landlord. She is a tennant there the same way as anyone else.

This may not be true. We know that Emma, not the agency, listed the place on Daft and made the decision on who would move in. She may well be the leaseholder.

OP did you sign any paperwork with the agency? If not then you're a licensee and have no rights.

Either way, if you don't like the setup, them moving will be way easier than any other option.

Dr Turk Turkelton

Mod edit

This is not after hours. Keep the posts civil or do not post at all.

vectorvictor

Your paying to live with this manipulator ? She sounds like a complete weapon. how could you ever feel comfortable living in an environment like that.

Sounds like Monica, i mean Emma, has found a nice little niche in having people pay to be her little runabouts and with the current housing situation in this country there will be no shortage of applicant's.

All I can suggest during your cleaning round is that you refill her shampoo with a nice pink hair dye.

On a serious note some people are ocd about cleanliness, I am too and for that reason do my own cleaning nobody will do it how I want it done but her delivery sounds shocking.

homerjay2005

i would call a house meeting and insit that either everybody cleans their equal share or nobody does it and get a cleaner. sounds like Emma wants people to clean everything like a professional, but does f all herself. the fact she is doing nothing and is acting like this, is a disgrace to be honest and she needs to be called up on it.

funningly enough, i used to live with a woman like this....her name actually was Emma.

gwalk wrote: »

How far away are the bins if it takes 40 minutes to take them out?

she sounds like the laziest person in the world so taking 40 mins to do a simple task, wouldnt surprise me.

cassid

She is not going to change, time to go elsewhere.

Everybody has different ideas on cleaning, my husband and mine are very different. If he does a room, when he is gone, i will go in and do the bits he missed. There is no point making an issue about it. In 15 years, i dont think he has ever cleaned a toilet brush ,wooden blinds or the top of the microwave.

The thing i dont get is why she is not doing her share of cleaning, people in glass houses should not throw stones. If i was fussy with cleaning, i wud prefer to do it myself and let the person who cleans the worst drop the items to recycle, so it makes no sense that she wont clean herself.

Find somewhere nice, life is too short, you had parents at home you had to follow their rules, your adults now.

I hope she pays the most with a double room for herself

fritzelly

People clean toilet brushes?

tuxy

cassid wrote: »

Find somewhere nice, life is too short, you had parents at home you had to follow their rules, your adults now.

Unfortunately someone who has to take a room with 3 single beds probably isn't financially in the best position to find somewhere nice.

fritzelly

tuxy wrote: »

Unfortunately someone who has to take a room with 3 single beds probably isn't financially in the best position to find somewhere nice.

And well she knows it

Pinch Flat

Emma sounds like fruit case who enjoys control and is also a germaphobe. I’d be keeping an eye on an alternative and getting a little plan B in place asap.

Axwell

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

This may not be true. We know that Emma, not the agency, listed the place on Daft and made the decision on who would move in. She may well be the leaseholder.

OP did you sign any paperwork with the agency? If not then you're a licensee and have no rights.

Either way, if you don't like the setup, them moving will be way easier than any other option.

Being the leaseholder still does not make her the landlord. She is simply the person whos name is on the lease if that was the case. From the ops description she most likely is living there the longest and over time has took control of everything when the original people she lived with moved out. If she is the house owner and renting out rooms then yes it would be a different story. Or if she had a contract which allowed her to sublet, which is unlikely.

She has by the sounds of it given herself the easy jobs, no cleaning duties, the bigger room for which she probably doesnt pay fair rent and feels as she is there the longest has the right to dictate things. If you have a signed lease with the agency then I wouldnt hesitate in talking to the others and confronting her or going to the agency. She needs to be taken down a peg or two and start treating people as equals and doing her share of the chores. Otherwise just start looking elsewhere asap.

Graham

It is quite possible that the lead tenant (for want of a better description) is the only tenant, the other occupants being licensees of that tenant.

Fol20

Graham wrote: »

It is quite possible that the lead tenant (for want of a better description) is the only tenant, the other occupants being licensees of that tenant.

This is more than likely the setup. Since Emma found the tenant, she will ore than likely be on the contract and paying the rent while everyone else gives her the money. As others have mentioned I don’t think there is any point rocking the boat as it will more than likely force the eviction of you rather than her as you mentioned other people are on a financial low and may not have the confidence to stand up to this person.

Personally if you can afford it, I would endure it and move out ASAP. If you can’t afford it ,compartmentalize her crap and just get by until you can get away from this person.

This type of person should be living on their own with that type of ocd, however at 40 years of age I suspect they can’t afford it and could picture them having a dozen cats when their older. She is completely abusing everyone else in the house especially as you mentioned everyone else is from different countries as most Irish wouldn’t stand for that type of stuff.

handlemaster

OP. Best to move on. This person will never change. But you could have some fun first winding her up !! She should be doing the cleaning also. Anyhow do as you wish and dont listen to her.

j4vier

Sounds like yourself and James should look for renting another apartment and getting out of there. I never shared so don't have experience, but I think your habits should be similar to the people you share with and clearly Emma is on another level.

Nobody should be facing this level of stress going home after a long week in work.

Jesus christ I could feel myself getting annoyed just reading this. Tell Emma to get stuffed. She's bullying everyone in the house because she keeps getting away with it.

yannakis

Your "Emma" needs my "Emma" as her next challenge.

She moved in a 2-bed apt with me, after my friend flatmate moved to another country. She was keeping her dirty dishes in a bucket in a cupboard until we ran out of something (forks/plates). She'd then fill it up with hot water, sprinkle some soap on top, take them out, and let them drip-dry. Scrubbing was so last year. In the beginning I was polite, asking her to be more thorough. When I confronted her about her method, she told me I might have to move out because I was too pushy..