electrical cert a dodge?

frankythefish

Hi folks,

I got an electrical cert some time back. We had the house rewired at time. I looked at it lately, and coupled with some stories I have recently heard re the individual I got it off, I am now worried it may be an illegitimate document. Is there any means I can check without going back to the individual asking 'is this legit'? On another note I see Electro-Technical Council of Ireland (ETCI) has since ceased to operate and I see they were mentioned somewhere on the cert

Thanks

Risteard81

frankythefish wrote: »

Hi folks,

I got an electrical cert some time back. We had the house rewired at time. I looked at it lately, and coupled with some stories I have recently heard re the individual I got it off, I am now worried it may be an illegitimate document. Is there any means I can check without going back to the individual asking 'is this legit'? On another note I see Electro-Technical Council of Ireland (ETCI) has since ceased to operate and I see they were mentioned somewhere on the cert

Thanks

It will have a serial number on it, along with Registration Number for the company and Qualified Certifier (QC) Number for the signatory.
It will have been sold by RECI with either "RECI Registered" on it or with the Safe Electric brand, or if an older cert might have been issued by a crowd called ECSSA.
It will make reference to the ETCI as it is based on the forms prescribed in the Wiring Rules (ET101) published by them. (Future Editions of the Rules will be published by the NSAI and will be Irish Standard 10101.)
So you can verify with these bodies that this company was registered with them - however, if they weren't then the certificate would never have been processed. So assuming that ESB involvement was required then you can be fairly certain that everything is hunky dorey with the cert.

frankythefish

Risteard81 wrote: »

It will have a serial number on it, along with Registration Number for the company and Qualified Certifier (QC) Number for the signatory.
It will have been sold by RECI with either "RECI Registered" on it or with the Safe Electric brand, or if an older cert might have been issued by a crowd called ECSSA.
It will make reference to the ETCI as it is based on the forms prescribed in the Wiring Rules (ET101) published by them. (Future Editions of the Rules will be published by the NSAI and will be Irish Standard 10101.)
So you can verify with these bodies that this company was registered with them - however, if they weren't then the certificate would never have been processed. So assuming that ESB involvement was required then you can be fairly certain that everything is hunky dorey with the cert.

Regards esb involvement I am not aware if there was involvement but I assume on rewire of a house there has to be? Cert only turned up month or 2 after works finished. Guy who did electrics apparently got somebody else to inspect works and issue cert. Safe electric on the cert.

Risteard81

frankythefish wrote: »

Risteard81 wrote: »

It will have a serial number on it, along with Registration Number for the company and Qualified Certifier (QC) Number for the signatory.
It will have been sold by RECI with either "RECI Registered" on it or with the Safe Electric brand, or if an older cert might have been issued by a crowd called ECSSA.
It will make reference to the ETCI as it is based on the forms prescribed in the Wiring Rules (ET101) published by them. (Future Editions of the Rules will be published by the NSAI and will be Irish Standard 10101.)
So you can verify with these bodies that this company was registered with them - however, if they weren't then the certificate would never have been processed. So assuming that ESB involvement was required then you can be fairly certain that everything is hunky dorey with the cert.

Regards esb involvement I am not aware if there was involvement but I assume on rewire of a house there has to be? Cert only turned up month or 2 after works finished. Guy who did electrics apparently got somebody else to inspect works and issue cert. Safe electric on the cert.

Doesn't necessarily have to be ESB involvement for a rewire. Depends really on the type of meter fitted.
As for someone else inspecting the works and issuing the certificate, was this person from the same company? If not, was this person a RECI Inspector (i.e. an employee of RECI and not a Registered Electrical Contractor)? When did the rewire take place?

Sleeper12

frankythefish wrote:

Regards esb involvement I am not aware if there was involvement but I assume on rewire of a house there has to be? Cert only turned up month or 2 after works finished. Guy who did electrics apparently got somebody else to inspect works and issue cert. Safe electric on the cert.

Safe electric sounds like a recent cert. Despite what the law might say it doesn't matter who issued the cert, they are responsible. So long as its a real cert the person who issued it is responsible /liable.
I saw an electrician sell a cert a few years ago to another "electrician". RECI made the guy that issued the cert totally rewire three flats because he issued the certs but the work wasn't up to standard. He would have made a few hundred by selling the cert but it cost him thousands in the long run.
People's livelihoods are on the line now. There is very little selling certs going on in the last 5 years or so

frankythefish

Risteard81 wrote: »

Doesn't necessarily have to be ESB involvement for a rewire. Depends really on the type of meter fitted.
As for someone else inspecting the works and issuing the certificate, was this person from the same company? If not, was this person a RECI Inspector (i.e. an employee of RECI and not a Registered Electrical Contractor)? When did the rewire take place?

Rewire mid to late 2016. I don't think individual certifying was working for the same business/company as guy who did works. Cert gives impression that certifier worked for registered electrical contractor eg certifier named Joe bloggs and contractor named Frank Smith Ltd.

Risteard81

frankythefish wrote: »

Risteard81 wrote: »

Doesn't necessarily have to be ESB involvement for a rewire. Depends really on the type of meter fitted.
As for someone else inspecting the works and issuing the certificate, was this person from the same company? If not, was this person a RECI Inspector (i.e. an employee of RECI and not a Registered Electrical Contractor)? When did the rewire take place?

Rewire mid to late 2016. I don't think individual certifying was working for the same business/company as  guy who did works. Cert gives impression that certifier worked for registered electrical contractor eg certifier named Joe bloggs and contractor named Frank Smith Ltd.

If the work was carried out in 2016 then if the company carrying out the work was not a Registered Electrical Contractor then they have committed a criminal offence. There is no lawful way for the work to be certified by another company (or by a RECI Inspector).

frankythefish

Risteard81 wrote: »

If the work was carried out in 2016 then if the company carrying out the work was not a Registered Electrical Contractor then they have committed a criminal offence. There is no lawful way for the work to be certified by another company (or by a RECI Inspector).

I am happy having done my checks that company named on cert is that of a registered contractor. However, on the signature part, name of certifier is written it. It is not actually a signature per say. My name on top of doc is written in same manner as his 'signature'. I have googled the name of individual certifying hoping to get tie between him and company but had no luck.

Risteard81

frankythefish wrote: »

Risteard81 wrote: »

If the work was carried out in 2016 then if the company carrying out the work was not a Registered Electrical Contractor then they have committed a criminal offence. There is no lawful way for the work to be certified by another company (or by a RECI Inspector).

I am happy having done my checks that company named on cert is that of a registered contractor. However, on the signature part, name of certifier is written it. It is not actually a signature per say. My name on top of doc is written in same manner as his 'signature'. I have googled the name of individual certifying hoping to get tie between him and company but had no luck.

The QC must be an employee or principal of the company named on the cert. Is the company named on the cert the same as the company which carried out the rewire?

frankythefish

Risteard81 wrote: »

The QC must be an employee or principal of the company named on the cert. Is the company named on the cert the same as the company which carried out the rewire?

Company named on cert has no connection to the individual who carried out the work as far as I know.

Risteard81

frankythefish wrote: »

Risteard81 wrote: »

The QC must be an employee or principal of the company named on the cert. Is the company named on the cert the same as the company which carried out the rewire?

Company named on cert has no connection to the individual who carried out the work as far as I know.

If that is correct then all is not OK. It would mean that a criminal offence had been committed by the non-REC (carrying out Restricted Electrical Works without being a Registered Electrical Contractor, and also potentially acting in a manner likely to portray himself as a Registered Electrical Contractor without being one), and that the REC was in breach of RECI Rules of Registration. It would also essentially render the certificate invalid, null and void.

frankythefish

Risteard81 wrote: »

If that is correct then all is not OK. It would mean that a criminal offence had been committed by the non-REC (carrying out Restricted Electrical Works without being a Registered Electrical Contractor, and also potentially acting in a manner likely to portray himself as a Registered Electrical Contractor without being one), and that the REC was in breach of RECI Rules of Registration. It would also essentially render the certificate invalid, null and void.

Is safe electric the place for me to go to query the validity of the cert? I have one copy, would they have another or who would?

Risteard81

frankythefish wrote: »

Risteard81 wrote: »

If that is correct then all is not OK. It would mean that a criminal offence had been committed by the non-REC (carrying out Restricted Electrical Works without being a Registered Electrical Contractor, and also potentially acting in a manner likely to portray himself as a Registered Electrical Contractor without being one), and that the REC was in breach of RECI Rules of Registration. It would also essentially render the certificate invalid, null and void.

Is safe electric the place for me to go to query the validity of the cert? I have one copy, would they have another or who would?

Yes, RECI (Safe Electric) is the place to check this. Obviously unless you tell them who carried out the work then they wouldn't be able to investigate.

frankythefish

Risteard81 wrote: »

Yes, RECI (Safe Electric) is the place to check this. Obviously unless you tell them who carried out the work then they wouldn't be able to investigate.

As long as they have copy of cert on file, and are content with its authenticity, then I am not too concerned that the individual who did works did not do certification. If I am correct the certifier will have done nothing wrong, and has given me peace of mind with certification, but the guy who did wiring was the guilty party.

Risteard81

frankythefish wrote: »

Risteard81 wrote: »

Yes, RECI (Safe Electric) is the place to check this. Obviously unless you tell them who carried out the work then they wouldn't be able to investigate.

As long as they have copy of cert on file, and are content with its authenticity, then I am not too concerned that the individual who did works did not do certification. If I am correct the certifier will have done nothing wrong, and has given me peace of mind with certification, but the guy who did wiring was the guilty party.

The certifier absolutely has done something wrong. It is prohibited to certify someone else's work. (The exception to this being a successful application for a Change of Contractor by you. This would not be conceivable if a non-REC had carried out the original work as that is already a criminal offence.) The cert is invalid if that has happened.

It is a very serious breach of RECI Rules of Registration and subject to disciplinary action including expulsion. Potentially it could also be unlawful (although I am not a lawyer).

Both parties are guilty.

2011

frankythefish wrote: »

If I am correct the certifier will have done nothing wrong, and has given me peace of mind with certification, but the guy who did wiring was the guilty party.

Not quite, and that is not the way RECI would see it. Exceptional cases excluded a registered electrical contractor is not permitted to certify someone else’s work.

Risteard81

2011 wrote: »

frankythefish wrote: »

If I am correct the certifier will have done nothing wrong, and has given me peace of mind with certification, but the guy who did wiring was the guilty party.

Not quite, and that is not the way RECI would see it. Exceptional cases excluded a registered electrical contractor is not permitted to certify someone else’s work.

Indeed, and the CRU would also take a very dim view on this.

frankythefish

Okay I see. Not good practice by either party. But from my point of view my concern is having a cert on file with safe electric/reci(I really hope they actually got a copy) that they see no issue with. True they do not actually know the identity of actual party who did work. They believe party who certified did the work.
In my head I am trying to remind myself that if I bought a house in morning, and had no idea re history of electrics, I could get someone out to certify that electrics were okay.
What I have gotten here is the same peace of mind.

Risteard81

frankythefish wrote: »

Okay I see. Not good practice by either party. But from my point of view my concern is having a cert on file with safe electric/reci(I really hope they actually got a copy) that they see no issue with. True they do not actually know the identity of actual party who did work. They believe party who certified did the work.
In my head I am trying to remind myself that if I bought a house in morning, and had no idea re history of electrics, I could get someone out to certify that electrics were okay.
What I have gotten here is the same peace of mind.

You haven't. The person coming afterwards cannot see what is hidden etc. That is why a Completion Certificate is a certificate (certifying compliance) and a Periodic Inspection Report is only a report and not a certificate. (It doesn't certify anything.)

Test only certificates are only for reconnections. The certificate you have is invalid and fraudulently issued. There is also every chance that whoever carried out the work on your installation is uninsured and perhaps also unqualified. It's a serious matter.

2011

frankythefish wrote: »

Okay I see. Not good practice by either party. But from my point of view my concern is having a cert on file with safe electric/reci(I really hope they actually got a copy) that they see no issue with.

Let’s assume they have a copy. So what? They will not have looked at it. Why would they? If what you suspect is true the certificate is null and void anyway. It’s not worth the value of the paper it is written on.

In my head I am trying to remind myself that if I bought a house in morning, and had no idea re history of electrics, I could get someone out to certify that electrics were okay.
What I have gotten here is the same peace of mind.

Just because you have a certificate does not mean that corners have not been cut.

meercat

Risteard81 wrote: »

Doesn't necessarily have to be ESB involvement for a rewire. Depends really on the type of meter fitted.
As for someone else inspecting the works and issuing the certificate, was this person from the same company? If not, was this person a RECI Inspector (i.e. an employee of RECI and not a Registered Electrical Contractor)? When did the rewire take place?

I’m surprised there was no Esb involvement
If the house needed a rewire then it most likely needed its tails upgraded
Agree it depends on what type of meter was fitted but I’d be surprised if meter was upgraded previously

Op,you should have brown and blue cables connected directly into the meter
Any chance of pic of meter and cables.

frankythefish

meercat wrote: »

I’m surprised there was no Esb involvement
If the house needed a rewire then it most likely needed its tails upgraded
Agree it depends on what type of meter was fitted but I’d be surprised if meter was upgraded previously

Op,you should have brown and blue cables connected directly into the meter
Any chance of pic of meter and cables.

I can see that brown and blue are indeed there

Sleeper12

2011 wrote:

Let’s assume they have a copy. So what? They will not have looked at it. Why would they? If what you suspect is true the certificate is null and void anyway. It’s not worth the value of the paper it is written on.

If it's a counterfeit copy I'd totally agree but if it is a genuine cert then wouldn't they hold the person who issued the cert responsible? Make them going back & rewire the job from scratch?

I only ask because I have seen them do this about 15 years ago. My sister got three apartments renovated. Turns out the builder bought a cert. When things started frying reci had no real interest in who actually did the job. I'm guessing they couldn't be traced but they treated the guy who sold the cert as if it were his work. He had to redo all the work. I'm only guessing here but I doubt they renewed his reci membership after that

2011

Sleeper12 wrote: »

if it is a genuine cert then wouldn't they hold the person who issued the cert responsible? Make them going back & rewire the job from scratch?

I have no idea.


The point is that an electrical installation can pass the electrical tests required and on the surface can appear to be fully compliant, however this does not mean that all of the regulations have been adhered to. Only the person that actually carried out the work will know if a few short cuts were taken.


The other issue I suspect is that in the event of a serious incident the insurance policies that the electrical contractors involved have may not pay out.

frankythefish

Contacted safe electric today. Checking if they ever got copy of cert. They did nt. They did nt seem to think it an issue. I asked if I would forward a copy of one I had in my possession. I was told there was no point as unless esb require it there is no need. Does this sound right? So was I the only one that needed to be given copy?

Risteard81

frankythefish wrote: »

Contacted safe electric today. Checking if they ever got copy of cert. They did nt. They did nt seem to think it an issue. I asked if I would forward a copy of one I had in my possession. I was told there was no point as unless esb require it there is no need. Does this sound right? So was I the only one that needed to be given copy?

You aren't explaining to RECI properly what the issue is. (And I pointed out at the start that ESB involvement may not have been required.) But even so, if a Cert No. 3 was issued then RECI must be sent a copy. But that's really not the major issue in this. What you need to explain to RECI is that you have reason to believe that the work was not carried out by a Registered Electrical Contractor, and you believe that someone else certified the job on their behalf in breach of RECI Rule No. 15 as well as the crime committed by the person who did the installation work. So it's not really about whether RECI have a copy of the cert on their system now or not - that's really irrelevant.

frankythefish

Risteard81 wrote: »

You aren't explaining to RECI properly what the issue is. (And I pointed out at the start that ESB involvement may not have been required.) But even so, if a Cert No. 3 was issued then RECI must be sent a copy. But that's really not the major issue in this. What you need to explain to RECI is that you have reason to believe that the work was not carried out by a Registered Electrical Contractor, and you believe that someone else certified the job on their behalf in breach of RECI Rule No. 15 as well as the crime committed by the person who did the installation work. So it's not really about whether RECI have a copy of the cert on their system now or not - that's really irrelevant.

I am holding off on telling them full story yet.
I know you are saying irrelevant if they got copy or not. I am still unclear about whether other parties other than i should have gotten copy though. I thought safe electric would take a copy for their file at least but of no interest to them. The cert is still an important doc though. A contractor is named on there. An individual is named on there as certifier. The installer may have put their details in without their knowledge. I have previously mentioned concern about the signature.

Risteard81

frankythefish wrote: »

Risteard81 wrote: »

You aren't explaining to RECI properly what the issue is. (And I pointed out at the start that ESB involvement may not have been required.) But even so, if a Cert No. 3 was issued then RECI must be sent a copy. But that's really not the major issue in this. What you need to explain to RECI is that you have reason to believe that the work was not carried out by a Registered Electrical Contractor, and you believe that someone else certified the job on their behalf in breach of RECI Rule No. 15 as well as the crime committed by the person who did the installation work. So it's not really about whether RECI have a copy of the cert on their system now or not - that's really irrelevant.

I am holding off on telling them full story yet.
I know you are saying irrelevant if they got copy or not. I am still unclear about whether other parties other than i should have gotten copy though. I thought safe electric would take a copy for their file at least but of no interest to them. The cert is still an important doc though. A contractor is named on there. An individual is named on there as certifier. The installer may have put their details in without their knowledge. I have previously mentioned concern about the signature.

I made clear that RECI should have been sent a copy of any cert - whether a Cert No. 1 (DSO involvement required) or Cert No. 3 (no DSO involvement required). But that administrative issue is not the important issue in all of this. From what you told RECI they believe that all you are trying to ascertain is whether they now have a copy of that cert. And that is what I am suggesting is irrelevant.

2011

frankythefish wrote: »

Contacted safe electric today. Checking if they ever got copy of cert. They did nt.

Why do you see this as important?

They did nt seem to think it an issue.

Yup, I would see it as being pretty insignificant too.

As Risteard81 has pointed out the real issue is whether the certificate was issued illegally. From you have said and the fact that you "holding off" sharing this information with RECI suggests that you do not appreciate the significance of this.

Sleeper12

frankythefish wrote:

Contacted safe electric today. Checking if they ever got copy of cert. They did nt. They did nt seem to think it an issue. I asked if I would forward a copy of one I had in my possession. I was told there was no point as unless esb require it there is no need. Does this sound right? So was I the only one that needed to be given copy?

I find Safe Electric difficult to deal with. I've followed many threads here & they constantly try to avoid taking action. They once famously said we don't deal with builders only electricians. It's usually builders doing the illegal works. I have seen cases where safe electric had to be practically beaten over the head with a big stick before they took action.

OP keep on their case. Explain like you would to a small child. Don't assume that they understand what you are saying or that they are on the same page. Once they are on the same page they will follow this like a dog with a bone.

2011

@Sleeper12 the OP has not raised any significant issue with Safe Electric / RECI so they have had no reason to take action.

Sleeper12

2011 wrote:

@Sleeper12 the OP has not raised any significant issue with Safe Electric / RECI so they have had no reason to take action.

Agreed. Point taken. Maybe I'm skured by past threads. If fairness to Safe Electric once they do actually latch onto a case they are very thorough.

frankythefish

My highlighting of what really happened to reci opens a huge can of worms. House torn apart to be rewired. Various people/businesses in trouble and me on the end of their venom likely. And likely financial costs will come my way. I appreciate it illegal for contractor to sign off on someone elses install. My 'cert' is really just a periodic inspection report. There is also a small possibility that the installer and certifier both work for the company that is the registered contractor which would make things legal if I am correct.

2011

frankythefish wrote: »

My highlighting of what really happened to reci opens a huge can of worms. House torn apart to be rewired.

I would think it unlikely that the house would be rewired. If it was my house safety would trump inconvenience.

Various people/businesses in trouble and me on the end of their venom likely.

If they deceived you then you shouldn't be loosing any sleep.

There is also a small possibility that the installer and certifier both work for the company that is the registered contractor which would make things legal if I am correct.

Why not check this out? It couldn't be that hard. Then only report of there is something to report.

frankythefish

The only way I get the safety you mention is through a rewire surely. Harder than you think to prove they both work for same company.

2011

frankythefish wrote: »

The only way I get the safety you mention is through a rewire surely.

.....or it passes a far more detailed inspection.

Harder than you think to prove they both work for same company.

No proof required, just satisfy yourself.

meercat

Who inspected your house previously.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=106164755

frankythefish

meercat wrote: »

Who inspected your house previously.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=106164755

This was installer having to go through the works with certifier

meercat

frankythefish wrote: »

This was installer having to go through the works with certifier

Oh sorry,I read it as an inspection by safe electric on the rec which they do annually
Either way as others have already said it’s not permitted to certify someone else’s work

On a rewire there should be 1 certificate with 3 copies
1 Original to customer (with all tests completed pre/post connection)
2 pre connection to esbn(to facilitate connection to meter)
3 post connection to safe electric (with all tests completed)
4 contractors copy(to match test records)

I’ve never come across a rewire where esbn weren’t required to connect into the meter