Blocking Charger for the day

TCP/IP

Hi All,

Firstly I don't own an EV or have an interest in one at all but something is bugging me and I thought this was the place to ask the experts.

So I drive to the local Newbridge train station and park for the day then head to Dublin for work. Every morning there is a Gen 2 leaf parked and plugged in charging and it stays there for the entire day.

I get back into the station at 6pm and as I am driving out it is still parked up taking one of two charging points. Now it does not affect me at all but I think what about other people that want to charge.

I have even thought in my head to leave a note about taking a charger for the day but I would love to know your thoughts.

Cheers,
TCP/IP

slave1

If it’s at the train station then it gets free parking all day if charging, could be as low as a 7kw charger so nothing out of the ordinary, you can hardly expect someone commuting to work to come back half way through the day to unplug after all.

colm_mcm

So I wonder will they increase the number of these chargers in line with EV sales?

TCP/IP

slave1 wrote: »

If it’s at the train station then it gets free parking all day if charging, could be as low as a 7kw charger so nothing out of the ordinary, you can hardly expect someone commuting to work to come back half way through the day to unplug after all.

So it means that nobody else can access a charger for the whole day seems a bit unfair to other EV drivers. I did not know that you get free parking if charging. IMO you should be clamped if taking up a whole day.

creedp

slave1 wrote: »

If it’s at the train station then it gets free parking all day if charging, could be as low as a 7kw charger so nothing out of the ordinary, you can hardly expect someone commuting to work to come back half way through the day to unplug after all.

Don't disagree with you but it is extremely frustrating for other EV owners who are also Iaranroid Eireann customers that the very limited number of charges are blocked up all day even if car is no longer charging. In my case with a L30 with 6.6kwh charger, I can charge from 0% to 100% in approx. 4 hrs so if I get the train at 8am the car is full charged by 12pm at the latest yet the precious charger is blocked until I pick up the car which could be 6 to 8 hours later.

Now if chargers are installed so that up to 4 cars could access a single charger, then at least up to 3 others could potentially use the charger once the previous car is fully charged. Alternatively, the chargers could be programmed to stop charging when a car hits 80% or 90%. This would be much fairer allowing more efficient access to a necessary and extremely scarce resource. Basically, IMO its unfair and inefficient that once driver can hog a charger all day even when his/her car is not charging.

irishgrover

I think destination charges, especailly in the case of train stations, it's fair enough that people plug in and charge all day. Ultimately, this is what the use case design is. Drive to station in EV, plug in, do rest of commute on train, return at end of day to charged car. So in this case I have no issue whatsoever with the CP being "hogged" all day. For destination charging at train stations I think the onus is on CIE to provide more charge points. There are relatively cheap (compared to fast chargers) to install and maintain and should be much higher in number.

Gumbo

TCP/IP wrote: »

So it means that nobody else can access a charger for the whole day seems a bit unfair to other EV drivers. I did not know that you get free parking if charging. IMO you should be clamped if taking up a whole day.

The charger is a slow charger / Destinantion charger. Its designed for people to park and charge for hours on end.
Nobody else would require use of it, as you cannot pull up and get a quick charge and move on. You need 2-3 hours at it just to get may 30% charge.

If it was a fast charger, then that's a different kettle of fish altogether.

ELM327

Destination charger being used as intended, nothing wrong with that at all.
Solution is more chargers...

I'd imagine train station charge points were intended for to be used most of the working day.

But as batteries hold a lot more energy since 2011 I would expect all day charging isn't necessary today. In fact again, I would imagine it's locals using them and most likely a full charge would do them a week from their home charge point.

stesaurus

Also chargers at train stations are supposed to be for Iarnroid Eireann customers. How many customers would have a trip into town etc. and be home within 2-3 hours, very few, hence why commuters should be free to park up all day. Thats the intended user in this case.

unkel

colm_mcm wrote: »

So I wonder will they increase the number of these chargers in line with EV sales?

No. Public slow (destination) chargers are not a scalable solution. What is a scalable solution is fast charging stations with multiple bays. Exactly like the current petrol stations

Shefwedfan

colm_mcm wrote: »

So I wonder will they increase the number of these chargers in line with EV sales?

It depends. the likes of Tesco shops and Blanchardstown shopping centre are planning on installing more slow chargers. It makes sense for these places to keep people as long as possible in the area. So you arrive at Blanch at 9, plug into slow charger.....spend 4-5 hours shopping and come back to car......makes sense

Hopefully the likes of M3 train station would end up with a bank of 20 slow chargers or more for commuters. The requirement at the moment does not warrant this

unkel

unkel wrote: »

No. Public slow (destination) chargers are not a scalable solution. What is a scalable solution is fast charging stations with multiple bays. Exactly like the current petrol stations

Most are 22 Kw AC points, it's the cars that have the slow chargers at the end of the day.

At least the i3 94 Ah, Zoe and any Model S with dual 10 Kw chargers can get the true potential out of the AC network.

Even the i3 94 Ah can get 22 Kwh in 2 hrs which is a 24 kwh leaf charged to 100% , brand new battery.

Ioniq, Leaf , E-Golf etc have the slow chargers the 22 Kw AC points are not even chargers, they supply the AC power only it's the Ioniq for instance that has the slow charger.

unkel

Shefwedfan wrote: »

It depends. the likes of Tesco shops and Blanchardstown shopping centre are planning on installing more slow chargers. It makes sense for these places to keep people as long as possible in the area. So you arrive at Blanch at 9, plug into slow charger.....spend 4-5 hours shopping and come back to car......makes sense

Agreed it makes commercial sense for shopping centres to keep people there for hours. It also costs very little to install slow chargers and the electricity costs are almost nothing

Combine that with premium parking (right beside the entrance like in Dundrum shopping centre - I was charging myself there the last time I was there next to a brand new EUR150k Tesla Model X) with decent enforcement and I won't complain. Still not very scalable though. There are 3 or 4 chargers at Dundrum which is just about OK for now. By the end of next year there would have to be about 30 of them and in 10 years time about every other car parking space in Dundrum would need an EV charge point. Get my drift?

DrPhilG

Any charger that is in use longer than the car is charging is a poor use of the resource. A charger being blocked for 9-10 hours when the car is full in 3 is a bloody disgrace.

I hate the term destination charger because people see it as an open invitation to abuse it like this. There should not be any chargers at commuter train stations.

Slow chargers should be used as described above, while someone is in a shopping centre for a few hours, at the cinema, out for a meal etc.

liamog

Slow charging at a commuter station is a perfect use case.

Charging for a couple of hours at a shopping center is a bit daft.
For it to work the chargers need to be away from the doors making it annoying.
Why bother when I can either a) charge at home or b) charge quickly somewhere I can grab a quick coffee.

Parasitic charging stops making sense now that cars have bigger batteries and faster rapid charging.

ELM327

DrPhilG wrote: »

Any charger that is in use longer than the car is charging is a poor use of the resource. A charger being blocked for 9-10 hours when the car is full in 3 is a bloody disgrace.

I hate the term destination charger because people see it as an open invitation to abuse it like this. There should not be any chargers at commuter train stations.

Slow chargers should be used as described above, while someone is in a shopping centre for a few hours, at the cinema, out for a meal etc.

See I understand what you are saying, but what if your car finished charging in 1 hour and you were watching a Titanic rerun in the cinema (~3 hours + say 30 mins before for trailers and buying overpriced crap food!). Do you expect me to leave the film to move my car or is it acceptable to leave it the 2.5 hours parked not charging.
If 2.5 is acceptable, is 3,4,5,6 etc etc


It's a destination charger.

DrPhilG

If the trailers are really long or its an extra long film or I plugged in at 40% there might be an hour of dead space and that's unfortunate but fairly mild in the grand scheme of things.

It's not the same situation as leaving the car on a slow charger for 3 times as long as it takes to fill up! 6+ hours of dead space as opposed to 1.

And I'm offended that you think I would go watch Titanic...

stesaurus

DrPhilG wrote: »

Any charger that is in use longer than the car is charging is a poor use of the resource. A charger being blocked for 9-10 hours when the car is full in 3 is a bloody disgrace.

I hate the term destination charger because people see it as an open invitation to abuse it like this. There should not be any chargers at commuter train stations.

Slow chargers should be used as described above, while someone is in a shopping centre for a few hours, at the cinema, out for a meal etc.

There most definitely should be chargers at train stations. Perfect use case. Stops people from driving into a city and instead using public transport. Then head home in your fully charged up EV instead of burning fossil fuels.
When I had a full EV I used to drive the 70-80km to a train station outside the city and then a short trip to the office by train. I didn't have the range to not charge and there was no way I was able to return once charged to move it. Then some of the train stations put up 3 hours max signs and i couldn't get to work this way anymore. The locals got their wish so they can have free leccy and I'm in a PHEV as a result to get to work.

In your case the only people who can realistically be allowed to use chargers at train stations are locals who can park up and walk home or those who will need a short trip into town. I guess retired people or stay at home parents. I'm guessing that would be a max of what 10% of those train users?

I know you're from up North so maybe don't understand Dublin's congestion and pollution problems but encouraging people to commute to large car parks outside the city and instead travel by public transport can only be a good thing.

creedp

As I suggested earlier, if the chargers locations were designed in a manner which allowed say 4 cars to park in a circular format around them and once a car is fully charged the next person could remove the cable and plug it into their own car this would facilitate maximum efficiency for all EV drivers.

Is there any reason why this couldn't be done?

liamog

It could make sense to install 4 port slow charge points at the center of 8 parking bays.
It would give 50% coverage of parking bays at a park and ride site, positioning may not be ideal but most should be able to park in the outer bays and still charge.

As a park and ride there isn't much call for more than 16A charging, in that time you should be able to take on nearly 30kWh during a day. Should cover anybody who needs to commute 150km to the park and ride site.

ELM327

Yes. At a destination charger, particularly at a workplace or train station a myriad of 16a chargers would be a better use of resources than 1 two port 22kW charger. for sure.

ArrBee

creedp wrote: »

As I suggested earlier, if the chargers locations were designed in a manner which allowed say 4 cars to park in a circular format around them and once a car is fully charged the next person could remove the cable and plug it into their own car this would facilitate maximum efficiency for all EV drivers.

Is there any reason why this couldn't be done?

Or why not allow them all to be plugged in simultaneously instead of needing to move the plug?

You could even have the charger divert power automatically between cars as they become charged.

ELM327

ArrBee wrote: »

Or why not allow them all to be plugged in simultaneously instead of needing to move the plug?

You could even have the charger divert power automatically between cars as they become charged.

A 4 point charger is a lot easier to install than an 8 one I guess.

DesperateDan

Very nice of you to consider EV owners here OP, now imagine an EV user's frustration when the only charger for miles is blocked by a diesel car

p15574

ArrBee wrote: »

Or why not allow them all to be plugged in simultaneously instead of needing to move the plug?

You could even have the charger divert power automatically between cars as they become charged.

Exactly as I was thinking, except perhaps it should be a 'multitasking' charger, giving each car 10 minutes charging in a round-robin manner repeatedly. This way it's shared equally instead of 1 car getting fully charged and other maybe not getting any at all.

ELM327

p15574 wrote: »

Exactly as I was thinking, except perhaps it should be a 'multitasking' charger, giving each car 10 minutes charging in a round-robin manner repeatedly. This way it's shared equally instead of 1 car getting fully charged and other maybe not getting any at all.

That would throw "charger error" in most cars.
Certainly the first gen 11-17 leaf and the Zoe.

Orebro

p15574 wrote: »

Exactly as I was thinking, except perhaps it should be a 'multitasking' charger, giving each car 10 minutes charging in a round-robin manner repeatedly. This way it's shared equally instead of 1 car getting fully charged and other maybe not getting any at all.

I certainly wouldn't want that type of charging regime on my battery either- something tells me it wouldn't do any good.

p15574

Orebro wrote: »

I certainly wouldn't want that type of charging regime on my battery either- something tells me it wouldn't do any good.

Sorry, I don't know the technical details of batteries and how they work, just trying to imagine how to distribute the charger more fairly. Does the amperage or whatever you'd call it have to be at a particular constant level, or could it be shared? Eg if it was 80 amps, if 2 cars plugged in they'd get 40 amps, 4 => 20 amps?

ELM327

p15574 wrote: »

Sorry, I don't know the technical details of batteries and how they work, just trying to imagine how to distribute the charger more fairly. Does the amperage or whatever you'd call it have to be at a particular constant level, or could it be shared? Eg if it was 80 amps, if 2 cars plugged in they'd get 40 amps, 4 => 20 amps?

Loadsharing works fine at the superchargers.


A situation where it is "off and on" will not work so well.
Once you are using a dedicated charger and not a granny cable, load variance should not be a problem once there's a minimum load of say 13a

And I don't think any cars can take 80a, generally 32a is the max for a non Zoe