BMW now the least reliable car brand

Apparently

http://www.jdpower.com/press-releases/2018-uk-vehicle-dependability-study

How reliable are these car surveys?

MetzgerMeister

Deleted User wrote: »

How reliable are these car surveys?

Not as reliable as BMWs :pac:

James Bond Junior

We have 6 BMWs in the JBJ house ranging from 142 to 172 but one a 99. Not one issue between them all. There is a Hyundai floating around too and it's on its 3rd clutch.

Harry Palmr

JD Power are the daddy of owner surveys

HappyAsLarE

James Bond Junior wrote: »

We have 6 BMWs in the JBJ house ranging from 142 to 172 but one a 99. Not one issue between them all. There is a Hyundai floating around too and it's on its 3rd clutch.

The newer ones won’t last as long as the 99 one. Everything is plastic since th mid 00s.

boiledkitten

BMW and Renault are without doubt the best two brands of car......putting mechanics kids through college since way back when..:D

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime

Leaving the N47 timing chain issue aside

It's the same as with most cars these days

The more electronic , plastic gimmicky **** you put into a car the more that goes wrong

That seems to be the majority of faults with any modern car is electronics

But I don't believe that BMW are worst and Hyundai are best

I call complete bull on that

bazz26

When you see Skoda in 4th and Seat in 6th yet VW down in 13th despite the majority of all 3 brands sharing so much, you kind of get an idea of what this survey is all about - customer expectation, not how reliable or unreliable a brand is.

But then again that's won't stur as much sensation or outrage as I think this thread was designed to do.

Eric Cartman

its pretty simple

buy a new 7 series, adaptive cruise control radar gets dirty and throws an error, lad on 300k a year is going to send it to the dealer because he doesn't have the time to save 100 quid looking it up.

a Kia doesn't have adaptive cruise control, its owner won't give a garage a cent until the thing doesn't start.

by dealer visits stats kia looks better.

Silent Running

Eric Cartman wrote: »

its pretty simple

buy a new 7 series, adaptive cruise control radar gets dirty and throws an error, lad on 300k a year is going to send it to the dealer because he doesn't have the time to save 100 quid looking it up.

a Kia doesn't have adaptive cruise control, its owner won't give a garage a cent until the thing doesn't start.

by dealer visits stats kia looks better.

My Hyundai does, and lane keep assist, and a host of other stuff.

Harry Palmr

bazz26 wrote: »

When you see Skoda in 4th and Seat in 6th yet VW down in 13th despite the majority of all 3 brands sharing so much, you kind of get an idea of what this survey is all about - customer expectation, not how reliable or unreliable a brand is.

But then again that's won't stur as much sensation or outrage as I think this thread was designed to do.

Skoda were the star of the Top Gear/JD Power surveys back in the late 90s/early 00's. I think Renault were consistently poor and Vauxhall/Opels. You're right that people have different levels of expectation but if you pay 50k-60k you expect a reliable high quality build.

Eric Cartman

Silent Running wrote: »

My Hyundai does, and lane keep assist, and a host of other stuff.

well then surround cameras, a touchscreen key etc... for every option your Hyundai has you can multiply that by the number of the bmw series as to what it has. But the point still stands, if an error came up on the screen of your car would you look it up and try fix it yourself or blindly throw the car into the dealer and say 'fix that'

gctest50

Eric Cartman wrote: »

well then surround cameras, a touchscreen key etc...

Cameras and a touchscreen are not new technology

Eric Cartman

gctest50 wrote: »

Cameras and a touchscreen are not new technology

the touchscreen key on the 7 is :pac:

Silent Running

Eric Cartman wrote: »

well then surround cameras, a touchscreen key etc... for every option your Hyundai has you can multiply that by the number of the bmw series as to what it has. But the point still stands, if an error came up on the screen of your car would you look it up and try fix it yourself or blindly throw the car into the dealer and say 'fix that'

Throw it at the dealer and say 'fix that' under the 5 year warranty.

Touchscreen key? I don't even see my key. It's in my pocket. And there it stays. Nissan have surround cameras on their Leaf.

mickdw

The point being made is that the BMW owner wants a premium experience and anything that doesn't met that will go down as a negative.
The kia driver is largely looking for value for money. Therefore a broadly reliable kia will likely have its owner smiling from ear to ear even if it meant a couple of trips to dealer under warranty.
A BMW needing similar attention might be viewed as poor by its owner who is expecting better.
Add in the additional tech, the shorter warranty and it's easy to see why a BMW owner might not enjoy the experience so much if things start to go wrong.

RustyNut

They're not known as BM trouble yous for no reason.

myshirt

The Ultimate Driving Machine my arse.

Let me tell you, there is zero driving pleasure to be had from the passenger seat of a flatbed truck picking up your BMW.

Timing chain issue was a disgrace. They should have just taken it on the chin and said we are BMW, we don't make ****e cars, we're sorry. But they didn't. And apparently they are the only ones that can service s BMW. Every one else can't. You know what I'm on about.

bazz26

bazz26 wrote: »

When you see Skoda in 4th and Seat in 6th yet VW down in 13th despite the majority of all 3 brands sharing so much, you kind of get an idea of what this survey is all about - customer expectation, not how reliable or unreliable a brand is.

But then again that's won't stur as much sensation or outrage as I think this thread was designed to do.

Really?

I was curious to see if it would descend into an EV fan promo like the thread for the best car in the survey.

myshirt

myshirt wrote: »

The Ultimate Driving Machine my arse.

Let me tell you, there is zero driving pleasure to be had from the passenger seat of a flatbed truck picking up your BMW.

Timing chain issue was a disgrace. They should have just taken it on the chin and said we are BMW, we don't make ****e cars, we're sorry. But they didn't. And apparently they are the only ones that can service s BMW. Every one else can't. You know what I'm on about.

I doubt even the most fervent BMW driver believes they were referring to a four cylinder diesel when they wrote that tag line.

Philb76

Should every manufacturers bread and butter engine not be the most reliable one

myshirt

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I doubt even the most fervent BMW driver believes they were referring to a four cylinder diesel when they wrote that tag line.

And nor do I. I know it's only a 4 pot. It doesn't take away from the point.

What are you driving? And is it really necessary to be getting into a dick measuring contest?
We can't all drive a M5.

Eric Cartman

Philb76 wrote: »

Should every manufacturers bread and butter engine not be the most reliable one

the 530i / 530d is probably the biggest volume seller between almost all US / UAE sales being petrol and the taxi/ fleet market in other countries opting for more poke

Johnnyhpipe

I used to drive an e46 for 3 years then an e92 for another 3. I should have taken out shares in my local mechanics!

Both great cars to drive, but personally had so many problems with them I would never consider another BMW.

CalamariFritti

Its nothing new. I was only little when I asked my dad would he ever buy a BMW and he replied BMW = Bring mich Werkstatt -> Bring me workshop. Thats...erm...a good while ago.

Having said that. I drove an E39 for nearly 14 years and she was terrific and reliable. I now have an F31 and its excellent so far, not a beep.

Edit: Just noticed my own wording. Five years with no trouble and 'it' may even get promoted to 'she', too.

AlphaOmega1

Silent Running wrote: »

Throw it at the dealer and say 'fix that' under the 5 year warranty.

Touchscreen key? I don't even see my key. It's in my pocket. And there it stays. Nissan have surround cameras on their Leaf.

But can you take out your key and pull the car out of a tight parking spot with the touchscreen controls while you stand there?

Silent Running

AlphaOmega1 wrote: »

But can you take out your key and pull the car out of a tight parking spot with the touchscreen controls while you stand there?

Pure gimmickery! You don't need a touchscreen key to do that. You can do it on your phone with a Tesla. The very idea of a touchscreen key is the epitome of backward thinking. Why not use the touchscreen phone that surely every BMW driver has, even if it is an Apple.

tossy

Its JD power, the QVC of surveys - weren't these the shower that were rating Subura as the most desirable car maker in the UK for years until it was discovered they were only surveying Subaru owners

Hyuandai most reliable.
BMW least reliable.

I know which one i'd choose and i'm a VAG ninja FFS

AlphaOmega1

Silent Running wrote: »

Pure gimmickery! You don't need a touchscreen key to do that. You can do it on your phone with a Tesla. The very idea of a touchscreen key is the epitome of backward thinking. Why not use the touchscreen phone that surely every BMW driver has, even if it is an Apple.

but you already need a key, now you need to use your phone too? Thats stupid. Stop pretending you Korean scrap is = a 7 series in technology. recognize the bmw has much more features (that can break) and their owners are more likely to drop it into a dealer at the first sign of fault

btkm8unsl0w5r4

Athletes visit the doctor and physiotherapist a lot more than your average person the same age. If JD power did a survey they would claim being a couch potato was better for your health. If taking this at face value make you feel better about your purchasing decisions then work away.

I have a 28 year old BMW and its still on the road because its owners over the years could be bothered fixing it. I doubt in 26 years Hyuandai will say the same thing

Silent Running

AlphaOmega1 wrote: »

but you already need a key, now you need to use your phone too? Thats stupid. Stop pretending you Korean scrap is = a 7 series in technology. recognize the bmw has much more features (that can break) and their owners are more likely to drop it into a dealer at the first sign of fault

Ah right. You're that type of poster. Nuff said.

AlphaOmega1

Silent Running wrote: »

Ah right. You're that type of poster. Nuff said.

You're just annoyed I made a valid point that your car will be on the scrap heap before a bmw of the same age has even hit middle age. But i see you like to attack the poster when you the post beats you

Silent Running

AlphaOmega1 wrote: »

You're just annoyed I made a valid point that your car will be on the scrap heap before a bmw of the same age has even hit middle age. But i see you like to attack the poster when you the post beats you

I'm not in the least annoyed. I stopped driving bangers many years ago. And you didn't make a valid point. Tesla doesn't need a key.

I didn't attack the poster either. You did that all by yourself with the childish posting style.

CalamariFritti

Ah well AO, while I partially agree with you it must be said that BMW hasn't been immune to the race to the bottom 'optimisations' either. Everything and everyone is under the stress of having to make things cheaper and for more profit all the fkn time. BMW cars or any car for that matter aren't an exception to that.

So a nowadays BMW is not the same as an E34 or E39 was. They were bulletproof tanks. Throw in the fact that everything becomes more electronic and has added features all the time its near impossible for anyone to even retain quality and durability standards. Plus I'd say with the profit pressure its not even desired. Car makers don't actually want your car to last 25 years any more. They need you to buy a new one in 7 years time or ideally earlier.

Thats just the world we live in.

Cienciano

Silent Running wrote: »

Throw it at the dealer and say 'fix that' under the 5 year warranty.

Touchscreen key? I don't even see my key. It's in my pocket. And there it stays. Nissan have surround cameras on their Leaf.

So if an error came up that could possibly take you 2 minutes to fix you'd call the dealers, arrange a date to book in, take the time to drive there, check your car in, get a courtesy car if they have one, if not arrange a lift, do your days business and then go out of your way to call back in, wait till you can talk to someone that can check the car back out and drive home? Yeah, that's an amazing use of the 5 year warranty, far easier than sorting it yourself!

Silent Running

Cienciano wrote: »

So if an error came up that could possibly take you 2 minutes to fix you'd call the dealers, arrange a date to book in, take the time to drive there, check your car in, get a courtesy car if they have one, if not arrange a lift, do your days business and then go out of your way to call back in, wait till you can talk to someone that can check the car back out and drive home? Yeah, that's an amazing use of the 5 year warranty, far easier than sorting it yourself!

You'll need to show me where I said I wouldn't sort out a minor thing myself. I would use the warranty appropriately, If the car needed dealer attention. If a bulb blows, I would change it myself. In the event of the car needing dealer attention, I would book it in and take a courtesy car, if the issue needed some time.

I'm going by what my dealer assures me. I've never needed to use the dealer for any repair.

Philb76

Have to agree thing's are built to a price now no coincidence that older bmw wer more reliable but they wer very expensive second hand held value well especially in the late 90s and if you had one u wer doing alright now every man and his dog has one so understandable corners Will be cut same can be said for Mercedes and audi

pa990

it ain't called a B M troWble you for nothing

btkm8unsl0w5r4

Like you would not give your left nut for my Beemer, and probably the right too

CalamariFritti

pa990 wrote: »

it ain't called a B M troWble you for nothing

Wha?

gctest50

Nala Rough Architect wrote: »

Like you would not give your left nut for my Beemer, and probably the right too

yeah but ........

Nala Rough Architect wrote: »

..........

I have a 28 year old BMW and its still on the road because its owners over the years could be bothered fixing it. .......

you have a 28 year old one that wasn't owned by donkeys

selectamatic

gctest50 wrote: »

yeah but ........




you have a 28 year old one that wasn't owned by donkeys

There's many a 28 year old bmw getting horsed around the country yet they're still kicking.

CrankyHaus

Philb76 wrote: »

Have to agree thing's are built to a price now no coincidence that older bmw wer more reliable but they wer very expensive second hand held value well especially in the late 90s and if you had one u wer doing alright now every man and his dog has one so understandable corners Will be cut same can be said for Mercedes and audi

I heard on ad for them on the radio the other day, it ended with something like "you can always afford a BMW". I can't imagine that does much for their aspirational image.

Some beautiful cars, that drive very well, but at some point people expect a premium car to be at least as well built as mass market stuff. If it offers more functions then take the time to make them work reliably.

btkm8unsl0w5r4

gctest50 wrote: »

yeah but ........
you have a 28 year old one that wasn't owned by donkeys

Yep its a stunner, have done a lot of work since this photo tidying it up and getting back to factory, Its now a totally stock neon design edition e30 cab. One of only 200 made, pardon my other car in shot, its very distracting. PM me and I will give you the address to send all severed testicles to.

RustyNut

Nala Rough Architect wrote: »

Yep its a stunner, have done a lot of work since this photo tidying it up and getting back to factory, Its now a totally stock neon design edition e30 cab. One of only 200 made, pardon my other car in shot, its very distracting. PM me and I will give you the address to send all severed testicles to.

That's feckin lovely. And I'm no beemer fan.

kdevitt

I think its probably a fair place for BMW given the rather public issues some of their cars have had. They're a big volume manufacturer now, and the quality is lacking on some of the models. Doesn't matter one bit if the fault lies with external parts suppliers or not, BMW are responsible for the end product. You can't sell a 50k+ car to someone and them them to expect regular dealers visits to fix issues.

That said, out of all the BMW's I've owned, I only had serious trouble with one of them - a complete lemon of a 330i - but I could see how owning a troublesome one would put you off them for life.

mikeecho

I dive a Hyundai for work, and bmw's at home

I know what I prefer.

I prefer the drive home.

rabbitinlights

CalamariFritti wrote: »

So a nowadays BMW is not the same as an E34 or E39 was. They were bulletproof tanks.

They were not.

I owned and loved my E39 for 8 years and compared to the E60 they felt like they were hewn from stone but bulletproof they were not - it's cooling system was made of chocolate, drank oil, tappets gave jip and the gear boxes were sensitive if you didn't flush em.

But I loved it and I still check out 530i in the UK

I've had my F11 for nearly 2 years now and apart from a €80 suspension sensor it's been perfect and has lived a much tougher life so far with a young family.

Leonard Hofstadter

rabbitinlights wrote: »

They were not.

I owned and loved my E39 for 8 years and compared to the E60 they felt like they were hewn from stone but bulletproof they were not - it's cooling system was made of chocolate, drank oil, tappets gave jip and the gear boxes were sensitive if you didn't flush em.

But I loved it and I still check out 530i in the UK

I've had my F11 for nearly 2 years now and apart from a €80 suspension sensor it's been perfect and has lived a much tougher life so far with a young family.

+1, I think there is a bit of rose tinted glasses going on, BMW have had plenty of quality issues going all the way back to the 90s. Even the much revered E34 had its problems, such as the Nikasil one on the V8s. The E36, E39 and E46 have plenty of suspension design flaws, too, and let's not forget the chocolate cooling system and oil leaks on all the six cylinder engines (apart from the early M52s with the Nikasil, the six cylinder engines are otherwise bulletproof, though).

The one thing the older cars have, which the newer ones don't, is a much more widespread availability of six cylinder plus engines (naturally aspirated of course), and far more cars were available with manual gearboxes, too.

There wasn't such a focus on X models either and we didn't hear press briefings about making the cars more comfort focused (as we are hearing about the G20 3 series), there was a time when BMW was all about making the cars drive as well as they possibly could - literally making them the 'Ultimate Driving Machine'. The way they involve the driver in every aspect of the driving experience after all is what makes a BMW special and a cut above the rest - that lovely feel through all the beautifully weighted controls, the driver angled centre console, the red-orange backlighting to minimise distraction and fatigue for the driver at night (which is gone now unfortunately), the fantastic multi cylinder engines, the oh-so communicative steering and the rear wheel drive handling.

fancy pigeon

rabbitinlights wrote: »

They were not.

I owned and loved my E39 for 8 years and compared to the E60 they felt like they were hewn from stone but bulletproof they were not - it's cooling system was made of chocolate, drank oil, tappets gave jip and the gear boxes were sensitive if you didn't flush em.

But I loved it and I still check out 530i in the UK

I've had my F11 for nearly 2 years now and apart from a €80 suspension sensor it's been perfect and has lived a much tougher life so far with a young family.

Every BMW I've had has had some sort of electrical issue. I had a V8 535i that went on fire when I turned on the key, that was the worst one.

My most recent one, a 330d, refused to start one day and intermittently decided when it wanted to go. Broke it for parts eventually

I have an E34 almost 12 years, it's a car I always wanted from a young age. I had it about 3 months before it developed an intermittent starting issue, then one day died completely. Turns out it required a rewire at the back of the car. Since then it developed a parasitic battery drain, this is cured by disconnecting the battery if I've stop driving it for more than a few hours. These days, the lights like to flick on and off, the wipers work intermittently (I must devote a weekend chasing these faults) and always had an issue with the tail lights regarding firing up blown bulbs that didn't exist. Apart from that, it has just been wear and tear, apart from rusty jacking points it's needed just servicing and the odd timing belt...

Everyone's view will be different. Would I buy another BMW? Parts E34 if I could get one yes, daily driver is a maybe; I wouldn't rule it out completely

CalamariFritti

rabbitinlights wrote: »

They were not.

I owned and loved my E39 for 8 years and compared to the E60 they felt like they were hewn from stone but bulletproof they were not - it's cooling system was made of chocolate, drank oil, tappets gave jip and the gear boxes were sensitive if you didn't flush em.

But I loved it and I still check out 530i in the UK

I've had my F11 for nearly 2 years now and apart from a €80 suspension sensor it's been perfect and has lived a much tougher life so far with a young family.

I had an E39 for almost 14 years. Never any trouble with gear box (auto). Never flushed anything or replaced any transmission oil. Never any cooling issues. No oil issues between regular oil changes. Never saw an oil light. Only one warning light in all those years (ABS).

Ok, I had some issues over the years but not much considering how long I drove that car.
Suspension didn't like speed bumps, bushing were quite soft. Replaced them twice. And the interior fan got a little noise (bearings). Couple of seed sensors.
Only slightly bigger problems were I had to have the alternator refurbished at some point and I replaced the ABS module in the latter years. Would have been a little expensive had I not known how to get a Bosch OEM one from the UK. And a fuel pump which was the only time she actually broke down on me.

All in all very decent for such a long time. You dont get much better. She felt pretty bullet proof.