Paint peeling advice

bernard0368

Hi, I dropped my 2016 car in for repair in a main dealer. On collecting it their agent pointed out some paint peeling on the driver door.

Now i can put my hand on my heart and say I never saw it before and due to the size of same and it being on the drivers door there would be no way i could have missed it.

Anyway the rep said he would look into it.

Today I arranged to go with them to their body repair shop. The chap from there comes out and looks at the car, instantly saying to the main dealer that he is not going to likes this.

It turns out that the front, rear doors and wing on the drivers side have all been resprayed, and to his expert eye the work was "not great".

I bought this car direct from the dealer last year as a ex-demo confirmed at the time the car had never been damaged and was always in their stock.

The rep i was dealing with today states that they have no record of any work been carried out on the car other than service whilst they had it.

I have no great experience here so any advise would be appreciated.

What should I expect from the dealer who in fairness at the moment is being helpful.

How do I ascertain what damage and any devaluation on resale value the car. If a spray guy could see the work straight away.

bazz26

It sounds like the car was previously crashed and poorly repaired before you owned it. You say it was an ex demo you bought a year ago which would have made the car about a year old at the time you bought it. It's generally unusual for a dealer to keep a demo car for that length of time, demo models are usually sold after 3 months. It's very possible that the car was a hire/rental rather than a demo. Its very common these days that some dealers tell buyers that ex hire/rental cars are demos so not to put them off buying the car.

Regarding the problem you have now. Now I'm no expert but it's my understanding that a dealer is obliged to tell a buyer if the car was crash repaired. The story about the repair not being on their books would have little bearing on the fact they still sold you a car that they never informed you of that previous crash repair. It is also my understanding that they cannot claim that they didn't know about the repair. It's also my opinion they are deemed experts in their field of business to be able to identify a crash repaired car they are selling.

But before going in all guns blazing, what have they said around resolving the issue?

seagull

Someone's been less than honest. If it was always in their stock, they'd be aware of the damage. One possibility would be an employee crashed it, and sorted it on the quiet without recording it, but that doesn't seem very probable.

The first thing you need to do if possible is determine the extent of the repair that was carried out. Are these the original panels that have been repaired and resprayed, or are they replacement panels?

At the very least, I'd be expecting them to do a full repair at their expense, and provide you a replacement vehicle while that is being done. I'd also expect some kind of gesture like a free service.

What I think you should probably try for if they aren't helpful
Option 1 - Try to return the car and get a full refund out of them. I don't know how likely that is
Option 2 - They do a full respray and give a guarantee on it, and give you compensation to reflect the devaluation.

dense

Doesn't stack up.


Start taking notes about what is being claimed here because it could get messy.
What make car?

Toyotafanboi

I'd with with Bazz on this. More likely ex fleet than ex demo.

The paint shouldn't be peeling, you didn't damage it. It's 2016 so, the paint really shouldn't be making it's escape after 24 months, you bought it as undamaged and seeing as your anticipation is that would be covered by the manufacturers warranty, the dealer should really be putting this right for you.

The only thing to bare in mind is the difference between "crashed" and "damaged". The car could have been keyed, vandalised etc and a suitable cosmetic repair shouldn't compromise the car. The dealer does sound like a novice act from what you've said so far, so I'd be firm that you want this sorted. I'd expect they will without too much hassle as this is fairly embarrassing stuff.

bernard0368

Thanks
@Bazz26, the car was 7month old at the time with low milage, it matched details with other cars on the market at the time. All the paperwork showed it to be there car. They could have used it as a fleet car.
At the moment they are making the right sounds but its very early.

@Seagull, I agree if the car was theirs they should know it inside out. So yeah I am not sure I trust them in this. I am no expert, so ascertaining what damage was done I feel is going to be hard to determine.
If I go the full repair how do I know that the job they will do is up to standard, especially considering where we are now.

@ Dense, Yeah totally agree something does stink.

@Toyotafanboi, The body shop said the same it shouldn't be peeling and was likely a bad paint job. The dealer is talking of the warranty repair. As for the crashed damaged exactly any number of reasons can be given. Figuring out the truth may be difficult.
In fairness to the dealer they are regarded as reputable and have a good reputation. However the fact that they claim to know nothing about the repair is making me nervous and distrusting.
The fact that doors and a wing were repaired make me think this was more than cosmetic.

EPAndlee

An awful lot of cars are repainted before they reach the dealer. It could have easily been damaged during transit and repaired by the transport company. The likes of NVD do this sort of work, dealers often get cars delivered and are damaged. Transport company could have done a quick repair and the dealer didn't notice when the car was delivered. Or it was damaged as a demo or maybe a courtesy car

Foxhole Norman

EPAndlee is very correct. I've worked on multiple new cars this year and I'd say maybe only 2/3 had no signs of painting on some panel somewhere! It's quite common for them to be damaged in transit and like he says, not be noticed by the dealers. Most staff in dealers wouldn't have the eye to spot it.

wonski

There are those paint thickness meters available, are they not using it as a part of accepting 25k+ goods?

Serious questions as I can't believe this.

I work near dealer network and the cars appear to be protected well before being dropped off the transporter (some kind of cover on most panels).

Foxhole Norman

wonski wrote: »

There are those paint thickness meters available, are they not using it as a part of accepting 25k+ goods?

Serious questions as I can't believe this.

I work near dealer network and the cars appear to be protected well before being dropped off the transporter (some kind of cover on most panels).

No, most dealers wouldn't have a paint thickness gauge, dealers don't even correctly wash cars, they're not going to be able to read paint :pac::D

wonski

Foxhole Norman wrote: »

No, most dealers wouldn't have a paint thickness gauge, dealers don't even correctly wash cars, they're not going to be able to read paint :pac::D

Not like it cost a fortune to buy it. I guess sponge is expensive these days

colm_mcm

You need to get onto the dealer principal first and demand an explation. Your issue is going to be that you bought the car on the basis that it was a demo model and not a damaged repaired rental car or fleet car. There’s no possible way the garage wouldn’t have known that it wasn’t a demo. Also it’s unlikeky they wouldn’t have noticed the repair if it came back from rental. It’s even possible they did the repair themselves. Next step would be to contact the distributor for the brand and lodge a complaint, as they’ll likely have a used car programme which has a 60 point check or whatever.

Realistically, what you should be aiming for is a change to a similar car which hasn’t been repaired. A refund isn’t likely.

bazz26

EPAndlee wrote: »

An awful lot of cars are repainted before they reach the dealer. It could have easily been damaged during transit and repaired by the transport company. The likes of NVD do this sort of work, dealers often get cars delivered and are damaged. Transport company could have done a quick repair and the dealer didn't notice when the car was delivered. Or it was damaged as a demo or maybe a courtesy car

Foxhole Norman wrote: »

EPAndlee is very correct. I've worked on multiple new cars this year and I'd say maybe only 2/3 had no signs of painting on some panel somewhere! It's quite common for them to be damaged in transit and like he says, not be noticed by the dealers. Most staff in dealers wouldn't have the eye to spot it.

To be fair lads, the OP says that the front, driver's side wing and rear doors were painted. That sounds alot more than scratches or a tip gotten during transport unless the car actually fell off the transporter. I'm not saying the car was definitely involved in a road traffic accident but it seem plausible that the side of it was possibly torn to require a both doors and a wing, etc to be repainted.

The OP also should not accept that the selling dealer didn't know about it when the OP bought it. While it is possible that the sales guy didn't have a clue I have my doubts that nobody at the dealership new the car was repainted especially if the car was with them from day one. Imo the selling garage is still responsible for not disclosing the fact that the car was damaged and repainted to the buyer, at the time of sale. I'd imagine a car dealer whose profession is buying and selling cars would be deemed an expert in that profession and claiming ignorance or not knowing it was repaired wouldn't wash in front of a judge.

It does sound like the car was ex hire or fleet that was repaired and mis-sold to the OP as a non disclosed repaired ex demo at a higher price than a disclosed repainted ex hire or fleet car.

OP, what mileage was on the car when you bought it?

JoeA3

I’d disagree Bazz tbh! It really does not take a lot of damage to neccesitate an extensive repaint.

The damage that necessitated the respray may well have been very light and cosmetic. Something as small as a light parking scuff or keying vandalism. It may even have been confined to just one panel. But any decent professional repair almost always involves blending the new paint / lacquer into adjoining panels to ensure a perfect match.

The issue here is that the repair wasn’t very good at all. This sounds like lacquer peel which is indicative of poor prep work before the painting was done. So called smart repairs are notorious for this problem.

I think the best you can probably hope for is for a proper professional respray of the affected side of the car. If it’s done right it’ll be fine and you won’t be able to tell it was touched.

This is really very common. There’s not many cars on dealer forecourts that haven’t had at least some minor work done!

bazz26

Hopefully the OP gets a satisfactory resolution either way.

bernard0368

@ Bazz26 The fact that the whole side was redone certainly makes me wary as to what damage was there originally. The car had less than 15k km on the clock when I got it.
As experts yeah I would have thought that someone would have seen it originally.

@ JoeA3, I agree that a good body shop wuld blend the paint work. However their body shop described the paint work as not great and wavy. This would suggest to me anyway it was done on the cheap so the damage may have been more extensive.
You mention a proper repaint on the damaged side should I not go for the full car. Also if I go to sell the car what if someone notices the respray that will surely damage the resale value.
Also if they are responsible for the first repair what confidence can I have in their paint shop.

A few people mentioned NVD in fairness the dealer said they would be asking them have they a history on any repair.

bazz26

I can tell you now what NVD will say, they will tell you they have no record and will not want anything to do with it that might suggest they are liable. Your argument will be with the dealership you bought it from.

Also you won't find a dealer demo being sold with 15k km on the clock or 7 months old, dealers don't let their demo models get that much mileage rack up on them or keep them that length of time as it affects resale value.

EPAndlee

My guess would be it was a hire car for 6 months which woud explain the mileage and cheap bodywork repair

JoeA3

bernard0368 wrote: »

@ Bazz26 The fact that the whole side was redone certainly makes me wary as to what damage was there originally. The car had less than 15k km on the clock when I got it.
As experts yeah I would have thought that someone would have seen it originally.

@ JoeA3, I agree that a good body shop wuld blend the paint work. However their body shop described the paint work as not great and wavy. This would suggest to me anyway it was done on the cheap so the damage may have been more extensive.
You mention a proper repaint on the damaged side should I not go for the full car. Also if I go to sell the car what if someone notices the respray that will surely damage the resale value.
Also if they are responsible for the first repair what confidence can I have in their paint shop.

A few people mentioned NVD in fairness the dealer said they would be asking them have they a history on any repair.

No, if you engage the services of a reputable professional bodyshop they will do a great job on it and you should not be able to tell it was ever repaired. Generally they will only paint the affected side. And they don't really fully repaint the entire side, they do what is known as a "blow in" - i.e. a blending technique into the adjoining panels. However, if the original repair is particularly bad quality, they may be forced to strip all that off and the re-paint might need to be a bit more extensive.

Bodyshops are pretty good these days in getting perfect paint matches. They don't rely on the paint code, they'll use special cameras etc to ensure its spot on.

It does sound like a "smart" repair was carried out on your car on what was probably minor enough parking damage. Main dealers use these smart repair guys a lot, just to tidy up cars on the forecourt, make them look presentable for sale. The repair looks OK for a while but later on problems start, as in your case.

You'll need to insist on picking your bodyshop of choice - don't let them farm it out to just anyone! Find local recommendations for the best around. If you're in the West, there's one or two I'd highly recommend.

tcawley29

bazz26 wrote: »

Also you won't find a dealer demo being sold with 15k km on the clock or 7 months old, dealers don't let their demo models get that much mileage rack up on them or keep them that length of time as it affects resale value.

You're absolutely incorrect on this as I personally know one was sold to my father in 2016 with either 16k or 18k on the clock, ex demo but also used as a courtesy car and mechanics used it too.
He can confirm himself it was a demo car as he saw it sitting in the showroom a few times as he works in the area.
One day he went in when the 162s were about to come out/or were already out (something like that) and said I'll take that one.
As regards any mechanical issues on the car - absolutely none
There was a bit of bumper damage, which he saw in the dealership and the dealer fixed it before it was sold as agreed.

bazz26

tcawley29 wrote: »

You're absolutely incorrect on this as I personally know one was sold to my father in 2016 with either 16k or 18k on the clock, ex demo but also used as a courtesy car and mechanics used it too.
He can confirm himself it was a demo car as he saw it sitting in the showroom a few times as he works in the area.
One day he went in when the 162s were about to come out/or were already out (something like that) and said I'll take that one.
As regards any mechanical issues on the car - absolutely none
There was a bit of bumper damage, which he saw in the dealership and the dealer fixed it before it was sold as agreed.

I've bought one or two ex demonstrator cars in my time from different brands and they have been about 3 months old with about 3k/4k miles on them.

Maybe those in the trade here can confirm either way but my understanding is that there is a distinction between a dealer demonstrator car and a dealer courtesy car so different practices maybe be applied to both. Demonstrators are just that to give customers a test drive in and are usually higher spec to show buyers what's on offer. Courtesy cars are given to customers when their own car is in the dealer's workshop either for servicing /warranty work or to the dealership staff. Generally courtesy cars tend to be kept longer and lead a harder life than demonstrators.

tcawley29

bazz26 wrote: »

I've bought one or two ex demonstrator cars in my time from different brands and they have been about 3 months old with about 3k/4k miles on them.

Maybe those in the trade here can confirm either way but my understanding is that there is a distinction between a dealer demonstrator car and a dealer courtesy car so different practices maybe be applied to both. Demonstrators are just that to give customers a test drive in and are usually higher spec to show buyers what's on offer. Courtesy cars are given to customers when their own car is in the dealer's workshop either for servicing /warranty work or to the dealership staff. Generally courtesy cars tend to be kept longer and lead a harder life than demonstrators.

Don't get me wrong I found the whole situation strange myself but it was a 161 demo purchase I'm almost certain when 162 was coming.
It had been seen in the showroom and also staff used it and I think I was told a courtesy car occasionally as well which would explain all the mileage.
As regards extras it has pretty much everything I could think of (headunit, alloys, a/c, c/c etc). Pretty much whatever upgrades are available for the corolla it had and its an absolute dream to drive too.
Maybe he was just lucky with it, maybe it came down to his history with the dealer. I don't know if it was even advertised for sale when he looked at it. He just decided he was changing the current car, went in to look and when the sales guy came over and asked him what he would like he just pointed and said that one. He didn't even test drive it :pac:

Toyotafanboi

The cars that the staff drive themselves are what I would usually consider a "demo" and these will be religiously replaced every time the reg changes. They will have average mileage on them though as staff will use them as their personal cars.

Same with courtesy cars, replaced with every reg change and will have thousands of one on them. All our 181 demos and courtesy cars are on the forecourt now and to be fair id say half are already sold, as soon as the plate changes they are off The fleet within a week max.

The only zero mileage stuff you'd get that is already registered really are pre-regs or ex showroom display cars from time to time.

tcawley29

Any update here OP?

dingding

EPAndlee wrote: »

My guess would be it was a hire car for 6 months which woud explain the mileage and cheap bodywork repair

Purchased a year old car recently 25K on the clock found a a slip from a hire company in the boot where Sixt had hired the car probably for about six months.

There are certain VRT incentives to support this.

The car may have been ex rental and fixed up before it was returned to the garage.

bernard0368

A little update, the dealer is making all the right sounds. It turns out car was leased and then sold to me. They are still trying to ascertain what damage was done. 4 panels have been resprayed.
They have offered to replace the doors and respray that side.
That is a concern why replace the doors? By respraying one side that is going to show up when I go to resell no?

JoeA3

bernard0368 wrote: »

That is a concern why replace the doors? By respraying one side that is going to show up when I go to resell no?

How would it show up? A professional repair by a competent body shop and it’ll be near on perfect. No one will be any the wiser it had a repair done. Replacing the doors will at least ensure you don’t have panels full of filler.

mickdw

A repainted car can always be spotted. A good repair means it's not something to worry about but it can be picked up.

Esel

I think a replacement vehicle is in order at this stage. I could well be wrong though?

tcawley29

Esel wrote: »

I think a replacement vehicle is in order at this stage. I could well be wrong though?

I'd be asking for the same or a refund too to be honest. It may not be the dealers fault but at the same time it's not what you thought you purchased so it's not your problem either

kermitpwee

JoeA3 wrote: »

How would it show up? A professional repair by a competent body shop and it’ll be near on perfect. No one will be any the wiser it had a repair done. Replacing the doors will at least ensure you don’t have panels full of filler.

Tbh Joe you don't seem to know a lot about painting cars. I can spot the best repair. There​ never factory. A lot of modern cars from the factory have orange peel, it's virtually impossible for a body shop to replicate this.

JoeA3

kermitpwee wrote: »

Tbh Joe you don't seem to know a lot about painting cars. I can spot the best repair. There​ never factory. A lot of modern cars from the factory have orange peel, it's virtually impossible for a body shop to replicate this.

I think I know as much, and hopefully a little more than the average man on the street. I’m very particular and fussy myself and I’ve seen very good repairs and bad ones both to my own cars and to others. A good quality repair will be very very difficult to spot unless really looking for it imo.

Certainly I wouldn’t worry about a salesman in a dealers in X years time spotting it. They wouldn’t see it if it was on the tip of their nose and besides, they won’t really care. It’s kinda expected / accounted for that a fair % of cars have had cosmetic work at one time or another.

All that being said, this damage was not the fault of the OP and is right to be aggrieved!

TheBoyConor

Could OP just ask for compensation for the damage and keep the car as is?

Like if it is mechanically fine and just a bit of cosmetic imperfection wouldn't it be more advantageous to try nail the dealer for a few thousand euro to compensate for the misrepresented sale and just drive the car away anyway. Like cars will pick up scratches and dents anyway, so getting a full respray is kind of futile because you're going to have dings and stuff in the future anyway.

bernard0368

JoeA3 wrote: »

. Replacing the doors will at least ensure you don’t have panels full of filler.

Aye but if the damage required fillers again how severe was the damage. What about the B pillar etc.

@ Theboyconor. The car may be mechanically fine what about the structure is that sound? I am not out to screw anyone here, I just need to be confident in the car I am driving, the fact they can not figure out or unwilling to disclose what damage was done to the car is a concern.
The car will of course have dings etc but the Lacquer is starting to peel so a respray would be essential either way.

seagull

The issue is that the dealer probably has no idea what happened to the car, and how bad the damage was. I'm presuming it happened while the car was on lease, and that the dealer wouldn't see the damage report. It seems strange that they're offering to replace the doors. That would suggest they suspect significant damage. If that's the case, then surely they should be offering a replacement.

There's also the fact that they somehow managed to miss it having been out on lease. How did they manage to get that small detail wrong? There's a difference in expectation between buying a demo car, and one that's been on lease. I think that would also typically be reflected in the price.

bazz26

I'd say there is a fair amount of filler in the doors which is probably why they want to replace rather than repair again.

seagull

LIGHTNING wrote: »

I'd be asking either for a refund or a replacement car.

Likewise. You have the dealer by the short and curlies. They sold you an ex-lease car as a demo, which is a lie, and then they didn't mention the repairs. That might be because they genuinely didn't know about them.

bernard0368

Ok, this has taken a turn today. Whilst the dealer is saying the right things and giving assurances on the safety of the car.
Certain evidence I have to hand has caused a massive break down in trust so everything has gone to the solicitors.

tcawley29

bernard0368 wrote: »

Ok, this has taken a turn today. Whilst the dealer is saying the right things and giving assurances on the safety of the car.
Certain evidence I have to hand has caused a massive break down in trust so everything has gone to the solicitors.

I'd do the same thing OP.

Personally I think the dealer is a fool to not have offered a refund or replacement vehicle here.

Best of luck with the case and please keep us updated at the end

GreeBo

@OP
How did you prove that you didnt damage/repair the car since you bought it from them?

Seems like someone in there already knew about it, otherwise why would they believe you?

bernard0368

@Greebo, never came up. They were quick offering to fix it. Leads me to believe they were aware of the damage.

EPAndlee

bernard0368 wrote: »

@Greebo, never came up. They were quick offering to fix it. Leads me to believe they were aware of the damage.

Thats not proof? It's easier for them to just fix the damage. You don't want a customer onto you complaining so their thoughts are probably get the car fixed and get you out the door

colm_mcm

Don’t let them near it till you’ve had it looked at. It’s easy for them to play it down once they’ve hidden the damage better by repainting and realigning

GreeBo

EPAndlee wrote: »

Thats not proof? It's easier for them to just fix the damage. You don't want a customer onto you complaining so their thoughts are probably get the car fixed and get you out the door

Really?
So anytime a customer comes in and makes a complaint that could lead to you having to give them a new car you would just honour that and not check that their complaint is valid?

Seems like a quick way to end a business!

EPAndlee

GreeBo wrote: »

Really?
So anytime a customer comes in and makes a complaint that could lead to you having to give them a new car you would just honour that and not check that their complaint is valid?

Seems like a quick way to end a business!

I was saying because they've already offered to fix it

TomOnBoard

Get the car examined by a professional who will conduct a detailed assessment.

tcawley29

TomOnBoard wrote: »

Get the car examined by a professional who will conduct a detailed assessment.

Great advice actually