I love eCars!!!

DrPhilG

Actually no, no I bloody well don't.

The range of benefits for us EV drivers are great. Cheap fuel, cheap tax, usually cheaper insurance, fantastic driving experience with loads of torque.

Unfortunately the range of problems are just as numerous. Selfish drivers hogging chargers, range issues, expensive cars etc.

So it annoys me so much that the goofballs at eCars are so utterly useless.

Some issues I can understand. They are short on funding, they don't make any money from the network etc. But the irritating thing is their complete incompetence and foolish decision making.

They boast about installing new triple head chargers. That's great, always good to see a CCS availability increase especially since I'm considering switching to a CCS car. But why replace instead of adding? I get that the older chargers are less reliable and hard to get parts for, but bloody hell at least leave them there alongside the new ones until they conk out? Why remove and dump a functional charger of any kind???

Why remove the accompanying SCPs from FCP sites? Single point of failure is the biggest flaw that the system has. I was in Applegreen Castlebellingham yesterday. Tesla was charging but the charger stopped working. So what did he do? He moved one of the other 7 chargers and continued! Meanwhile the clever folks at eCars have removed the SCPs from ALL the M1 Applegreens (I think) and also from Topaz Monaghan.

And then the jewel in the crown of eCars frustration... Find a faulty charger, report it to eCars, they refuse to mark it down on the map so everyone else shows up assuming that it's fine. I've just had to get the staff at the hotel I'm staying at to follow me to town to charge and then drop me back afterwards because the ESB charger on site is down.

If it had been marked as down I would have arranged in advance to granny charge on site somewhere. Instead I had to rely on the kind offer by staff to help out. The same staff who informed me that not only had users complained to eCars, the hotel themselves have contacted them repeatedly. Still the app says its fine.

God I hate eCars.

ewj1978

and the same crowd got the contract to run a large network in the UK. beats me how that makes sense.

ted1

ewj1978 wrote: »

and the same crowd got the contract to run a large network in the UK. beats me how that makes sense.

That’s a commercial venture. Very different.

DrPhilG

ted1 wrote: »

That’s a commercial venture. Very different.

Any idea what they charge for their UK network?

cros13

DrPhilG wrote: »

Why remove and dump a functional charger of any kind???

Because they under specified the grid connections to the site, it would probably need to be upgraded at an average cost per site of €30-50k.

Aaaaaargh!

Round Cable

DrPhilG wrote: »

Any idea what they charge for their UK network?

29p per kWh or 25p per kWh plus £4 a month standing charge. Similar charges in Ireland would be welcome.

ELM327

Round Cable wrote: »

29p per kWh or 25p per kWh plus £4 a month standing charge. Similar charges in Ireland would be welcome.

29c/kWh or 25c/kWh would be very welcome.

Padraig Mor

ELM327 wrote: »

29c/kWh or 25c/kWh would be very welcome.

I don't agree. As I've said before, simply equalling the cost of home charging (~8c per kWh for a night meter user) will get rid of the vast bulk of 'parasite' charging - why would you go out of your way to use the public network if it saves you nothing compared to charging at home? In practice, this can be implemented by simply linking EV owners' charge cards to their electricity account - you get your charge on your home bill; AFAIK there is no technical obstacle to this being implemented. This also avoids 'punishing' those who cannot install a charger at home (apartments, renters, etc) as they will pay the same as everyone else.

liamog

I could live with those prices.

Are those prices by ESB, or are they TfL prices, with ESB paid for providing the infrastructure and SLA's around availability etc... would be a similar model to London Bus services.

ELM327

Padraig Mor wrote: »

I don't agree. As I've said before, simply equalling the cost of home charging (~8c per kWh for a night meter user) will get rid of the vast bulk of 'parasite' charging - why would you go out of your way to use the public network if it saves you nothing compared to charging at home? In practice, this can be implemented by simply linking EV owners' charge cards to their electricity account - you get your charge on your home bill; AFAIK there is no technical obstacle to this being implemented.

8c/kWh is cheaper than the domestic day rate and considering the peak MIC needed for 50kW (more if the charger can charge AC and DC at the same time), the realistic cost of purchase, install and maintenance, the real cost is much higher.


We need this to be commercially viable to allow the market to grow.

Padraig Mor wrote: »

This also avoids 'punishing' those who cannot install a charger at home (apartments, renters, etc) as they will pay the same as everyone else.

Ah this old chestnut again.
I rented for over a year with an EV, most of that time it was our only car and did 60k km. Charged at home via a granny cable to external socket.


Have now purchased an apartment and am having a charger installed at my parking spot.

liamog

Padraig Mor wrote: »

I don't agree. As I've said before, simply equalling the cost of home charging (~8c per kWh for a night meter user) will get rid of the vast bulk of 'parasite' charging - why would you go out of your way to use the public network if it saves you nothing compared to charging at home? In practice, this can be implemented by simply linking EV owners' charge cards to their electricity account - you get your charge on your home bill; AFAIK there is no technical obstacle to this being implemented. This also avoids 'punishing' those who cannot install a charger at home (apartments, renters, etc) as they will pay the same as everyone else.

Adding the fee to you home electricity bill seems pointlessly complicated, it would be like providing telephone boxes linked to your home phone service instead of coin operated.

A simple pay & go using contactless with the option of a subscription for more regular users seems logical. Not every driver has a home electricity bill.

ELM327

liamog wrote: »

Adding the fee to you home electricity bill seems pointlessly complicated, it would be like providing telephone boxes linked to your home phone service instead of coin operated.

A simple pay & go using contactless with the option of a subscription for more regular users seems logical. Not every driver has a home electricity bill.

+1
The old "KISS" process applies here (Keep It Simple Stupid).
PAYG at point of "sale". No need for silly add ons like linking to domestic bill etc.

ted1

Padraig Mor wrote: »

ELM327 wrote: »

29c/kWh or 25c/kWh would be very welcome.

I don't agree. As I've said before, simply equalling the cost of home charging (~8c per kWh for a night meter user) will get rid of the vast bulk of 'parasite' charging - why would you go out of your way to use the public network if it saves you nothing compared to charging at home? In practice, this can be implemented by simply linking EV owners' charge cards to their electricity account - you get your charge on your home bill; AFAIK there is no technical obstacle to this being implemented. This also avoids 'punishing' those who cannot install a charger at home (apartments, renters, etc) as they will pay the same as everyone else.

There’s infrastructure costs and staffing costs. Associated with providing and maintaining the chargers.

And to be honest if you don’t have a home charger you should be punished. In the next few years the number of EVs will shoot up. And there quite frankly isn’t the road space to provide chargers for those that can’t charge at home.

Padraig Mor

ELM327 wrote: »

8c/kWh is cheaper than the domestic day rate and considering the peak MIC needed for 50kW (more if the charger can charge AC and DC at the same time), the realistic cost of purchase, install and maintenance, the real cost is much higher.

Infrastructural costs should be borne by the central electricity fund which pays for street lights etc (can't recall the name)

We need this to be commercially viable to allow the market to grow.

The market will not grow if EV drivers are being asked for fork out ~€1500 per year each solely to fund the ongoing maintenance of the network (the rough cost at the moment), not to mind paying multiples of the electricity cost. Could be revisited down the line when EVs are rather more numerous

Ah this old chestnut again.
I rented for over a year with an EV, most of that time it was our only car and did 60k km. Charged at home via a granny cable to external socket.


Have now purchased an apartment and am having a charger installed at my parking spot.

That may work for you, but certianly not for everyone

liamog wrote: »

Adding the fee to you home electricity bill seems pointlessly complicated, it would be like providing telephone boxes linked to your home phone service instead of coin operated.

A simple pay & go using contactless with the option of a subscription for more regular users seems logical. Not every driver has a home electricity bill.

Not complicated at all, and my understanding is that it can be done right now with little issue. Of course, the ESB pushed through legislative changes such that charge point users are not considered 'end users' of the electricity to undermine this.


FYI, this all makes little difference - literally 99% of my charging is done at home.

ELM327

Padraig Mor wrote: »

Infrastructural costs should be borne by the central electricity fund which pays for street lights etc (can't recall the name)
.

Why?
I don't need a handout for my ice car, why do I need a handout for the EV? When the free current subsidised mess has shown that the populous at large cannot be trusted.
I'd gladly pay €1500 a year to have access to a reliable, always on fast charge network with 4+ units per site. Like Tesla.


When the Ionity sites come in that will be the start, and you'll see how some people will pay a premium for that.

ELM327

Padraig Mor wrote: »

FYI, this all makes little difference - literally 99% of my charging is done at home.

Well then you've got no experience.
0% of my charging is done at home right now. Pretty much all of my charging is done at work, with the odd top up at the weekend if I need to do more than 150km.

liamog

Why is it always the people who hardly ever charge in public that want it added to their home bill?

You'd need to tie an eCars membership card to an MPRN and then send the usage numbers back to their home supplier for inclusion on their bill. Technically I'm sure it can be done, but I really don't see any benefit.
You'll still need a pay&go system for out of staters (visitors or rental cars), shared dwellings (I'm sure housemates won't want to pay for each others travel costs).

Zenith74

Tying it in to your home electricity bill brings no benefits that I can see, but as others have said adds complexity for setting it up etc. I can already activate an eCars charger with my credit card or ApplePay, why not just bill that card and you’re done? The other downside to tying it into your electricity bill is the effect on tourists who now need to jump through hoops to charge here, again credit card solves the problem. We already have a globally standardized highly robust payment mechanism, no need to “fix” that...

Padraig Mor

ELM327 wrote: »

Why?
I don't need a handout for my ice car, why do I need a handout for the EV?

Do you (directly) pay to use the street lighting on the roads you drive? No, because it's part of the national infrastructure - a handout to all drivers, incl the 99% ICE if you like. Any driver in the country is capable of taking advantage of such an 'EV handout' (which is small change when divided nationally)by simply buying an EV.

I'd gladly pay €1500 a year to have access to a reliable, always on fast charge network with 4+ units per site. Like Tesla.
.

€1500 (approx) per EV driver is the cost of simply maintaining the current network. A "reliable, always on fast charge network with 4+ units per site" will of course cost multiples to maintain. For the vast majority of people, they will not consider moving to EV unless it's cheaper than ICE. We will never have an EV population capable of supporting commercial charging if people are told they must fork out €1500 (or considerably more) just for the privilege of driving an EV. In tandem with exorbitant public charging costs, I can think of little else that would kill EV adoption stone dead.

ELM327

Padraig Mor wrote: »

Do you (directly) pay to use the street lighting on the roads you drive? No, because it's part of the national infrastructure - a handout to all drivers, incl the 99% ICE if you like. Any driver in the country is capable of taking advantage of such an 'EV handout' (which is small change when divided nationally)by simply buying an EV.

Everyone pays for street lighting via the PSO levy.
I'm not sure why that is relevant to one subset of drivers expecting free fuel.

Padraig Mor wrote: »

€1500 (approx) per EV driver is the cost of simply maintaining the current network. A "reliable, always on fast charge network with 4+ units per site" will of course cost multiples to maintain. For the vast majority of people, they will not consider moving to EV unless it's cheaper than ICE. We will never have an EV population capable of supporting commercial charging if people are told they must fork out €1500 (or considerably more) just for the privilege of driving an EV. In tandem with exorbitant public charging costs, I can think of little else that would kill EV adoption stone dead.

Interesting. Because that's not the private cost for any user in the UK/NL/NO, where private charging is common place. The highest tariff is in the UK with 49c/kWH at shell locations. Electric Highway is not so expensive. Norway is not as expensive as 49c/kWh either.


You have to remember when using a fast charger that you are using a 50k piece of equipment, and using electricity (usually) that is more expensive per unit than your domestic supply.


PS: EV adoption cannot be killed stone dead. There's not even 1% on the road now. It's not alive yet.

ted1

Padraig Mor wrote: »

ELM327 wrote: »

Why?
I don't need a handout for my ice car, why do I need a handout for the EV?

Do you (directly) pay to use the street lighting on the roads you drive? No, because it's part of the national infrastructure - a handout to all drivers, incl the 99% ICE if you like. Any driver in the country is capable of taking advantage of such an 'EV handout' (which is small change when divided nationally)by simply buying an EV.

I'd gladly pay €1500 a year to have access to a reliable, always on fast charge network with 4+ units per site. Like Tesla.
.

€1500 (approx) per EV driver is the cost of simply maintaining the current network. A "reliable, always on fast charge network with 4+ units per site" will of course cost multiples to maintain. For the vast majority of people, they will not consider moving to EV unless it's cheaper than ICE. We will never have an EV population capable of supporting commercial charging if people are told they must fork out €1500 (or considerably more) just for the privilege of driving an EV. In tandem with exorbitant public charging costs, I can think of little else that would kill EV adoption stone dead.

Can you park under a lamp post and block everybody else’s light ?
The light uses only 250 Watts. Your analogy I seriously flawed