Death of the rim brake looming?

jon1981

So are we seeing that start to the end of the rim brake now UCI have approved disc brakes? Also will this be an excuse for a new bike in a few years time when manufacturers stop making rim brakes

micar

jon1981 wrote: »

So are we seeing that start to the end of the rim brake now UCI have approved disc brakes? Also will this be an excuse for a new bike in a few years time when manufacturers stop making rim brakes

Watching tdf and just noticed disc breaks on one on the bikes.

Time for an upgrade

jon1981

micar wrote: »

Watching tdf and just noticed disc breaks on one on the bikes.

Time for an upgrade

Quite a few of them i see

Brian?

No.

Pros are riding them because they’re paid to.

andy69

Brian? wrote: »

No.

Pros are riding them because they’re paid to.

...and in all the years (since mid 80's) I'm in cycling as a sport, and all the people I've met though road racing, sportives, in clubs, out on the roads, in social situations/conversations etc etc., I've never ever, e.v.e.r. once heard someone say "ye know what would be great? Disc brakes".
So in my little limited exposure to bike world, my experience is that no one 'wanted' them.
Pushed by the industry I reckon, and as I've said before, IMHO they're simply a solution looking for a problem*.

I have to say though... much as I dislike them, I'm beginning to crack. That aero Cannondale bike launched last week looks amazing. First time I've thought that about a bike equipped with Discs.

If only we could get to a point where they didn't need heat guns, baking in an oven, balancing, bleeding, decontaminating, kid gloves when your wheel is out and bike's in your car in case the lever got pushed and the pads stuck together... :eek:

It's alright for the Pro's, they don't shive-a-git what they ride and they have a team of mechanics on hand to maintain them.


*ok, admittedly I have heard that full carbon rims leave a lot to be desired when it comes to braking, so improving on those might feel like something great perhaps. Alu braking surfaces is at my end of the market so I'm happy with the current braking, it's never let me down.

Zen0

On last year’s Wicklow 200 coming down the Shay Elliot in torrential rain my rim brakes left a lot to be desired. I nearly ran into the guy in front of me. And no, they are not cheap or poorly set up brakes. So I don’t accept that they are a solution looking for a problem. My commuter has discs and I suspect that my next road bike will have them too.

andy69

Zen0 wrote: »

On last year’s Wicklow 200 coming down the Shay Elliot in torrential rain my rim brakes left a lot to be desired. I nearly ran into the guy in front of me. And no, they are not cheap or poorly set up brakes. So I don’t accept that they are a solution looking for a problem. My commuter has discs and I suspect that my next road bike will have them too.

guess we're just different then - never happened to me. For the record I use Swisstop pads...maybe they're just great....maybe I just handle the bike differently...maybe my light weight makes it that way for me (I've often got to work *hard* on downhills, and I never really got this whole 'free energy' thing that Bäckstedt often talks about ). I'm certainly not shy when it comes to descending though. Not in the slightest.

smacl

andy69 wrote: »

guess we're just different then - never happened to me. For the record I use Swisstop pads...maybe they're just great....maybe I just handle the bike differently...maybe my light weight makes it that way for me (I've often got to work *hard* on downhills, and I never really got this whole 'free energy' thing that Bäckstedt often talks about ). I'm certainly not shy when it comes to descending though. Not in the slightest.

Rider weight certainly makes a difference. At 88kg I find the full hydro disc brakes to be excellent. Took a bit of setting up and right pads (sintered all the way for me) but they behave brilliantly. Downside is they weigh more, they can be noisy, and bleeding is new skill to learn. Also the hoods on my Ultegra hydro setup tend to slip forward regularly which is a pain.

ted1

Well my last fall was because it rim brakes wearing the wheel.
I’ll be going disc in future. I’m also 100kg and commute all winter and find rims brakes suck in winter

jon1981

Looking like the tide is turning in favour of discs, alot more articles popping on cycling websites supporting them over rim brakes. I can see why bicycle shops would enjoy the shift to discs... would drive up servicing revenue.

https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/latest-news/future-wont-see-road-bikes-without-disc-brakes-will-325026

Rm brakes will be obsolete and disc brakes used on all road bikes in the future, according to the head of one of the world’s biggest bike brands.

Mike Sinyard, the CEO of Specialized, dismissed concerns about the safety of disc brakes, and said that he expected all road bikes to be sold with disc in future.

colm_mcm

Weepsie wrote: »

When manufacturers see that people don't have to buy wheels because of rim wear every few years there'll be an about face of sorts

The markup on a disc is huge though.

jon1981

Looking at the Giant range of bikes, every bike from road to cx to gravel has disc brakes... not even the entry level bike has rim brakes.

smacl

Weepsie wrote: »

When manufacturers see that people don't have to buy wheels because of rim wear every few years there'll be an about face of sorts

I suspect very many bikes are bought with a fit of enthusiasm but don't get enough use to wear out anything much. The additional up front cost of discs is likely to outweigh the lost revenue for wheel longevity. It would be interesting to know what percentage of wheels sold are due to replacing worn rims versus being shipped with a new bike or bought as an upgrade.

magicbastarder

colm_mcm wrote: »

The markup on a disc is huge though.

i was perusing the genesis website recently; an equilibrium 20 frame is STG£500, but the disc version is STG£350 *extra*. that's basically going to invove a beefier fork and the bosses for the brakes. that's a hell of a markup for that.

Andy Magic

Either way I just hope the manufacturers keep producing both and don't retire rim brakes eventually.

I currently ride rim brakes all year round on all my bikes (road). I rented a bike for a week in Majorca recently and it had discs, it was good to try them out but the braking was too good for me, i locked up and skidded descending from the lighthouse. I did get more used to them as the week went on but they were almost too good for me I'm afraid.

Anyway each to there own, as I said above I just hope they keep producing both.

CrowdedHouse

As I think someone said in another thread, I'm looking forward to the giveaway priced high end rim braked bikes and wheelsets

jon1981

Andy Magic wrote: »

I rented a bike for a week in Majorca recently and it had discs, it was good to try them out but the braking was too good for me, i locked up and skidded descending from the lighthouse.

To be fair this can happen with decent rim brakes like Ultegra...perhaps technique is a factor? But agreed it's more likely to happen with disc brakes given the pull power available

jon1981

You can't retro fit disc brakes onto a frame designed for rim brakes right? So an upgrade is going to be an entire new bike...this will probably slow down the death of the rim brake!

magicbastarder

no, you can't retrofit.

C3PO

I would be very surprised if road bikes don't go the way of mountain bikes with disc brakes becoming standard issue!

Lemming

magicbastarder wrote: »

no, you can't retrofit.

Unless the frame designers had the foresight to put Post/IS mounts on the frame, you're out of luck. If they did, it should* just be a matter of matching up the correct mounting bracket to play nicely between frame & disc.


* Disclaimer: YMMV

jon1981

C3PO wrote: »

I would be very surprised if road bikes don't go the way of mountain bikes with disc brakes becoming standard issue!

Seems to be the case with Giant bikes.

Andy Magic

jon1981 wrote: »

To be fair this can happen with decent rim brakes like Ultegra...perhaps technique is a factor? But agreed it's more likely to happen with disc brakes given the pull power available

Funny you say that, I currently run Ultegra brakes on all 3 of my road bikes. I have the latest Ultegra on my 2018 TCR and I find the brakes brilliant. I don't think it's technique either, I'd consider myself a half decent descender.

jon1981

Andy Magic wrote: »

Funny you say that, I currently run Ultegra brakes on all 3 of my road bikes. I have the latest Ultegra on my 2018 TCR and I find the brakes brilliant. I don't think it's technique either, I'd consider myself a half decent descender.

That must be the last TCR they made with rim brakes? Couldn't see one one their site.

magicbastarder

i went to the site (https://www.giant-bicycles.com/ie) and the first two road bikes displayed are rim brake versions.

jon1981

My bad! Still hope so!

Sinbad_NI

Discs all the way for me going forward.

dahat

There is a technique to braking on a bike be it rim or disc brakes that needs to be practised.

I'll never use rim brakes on carbon rims due to my fat arse plus the normal damp weather so if I get a new bike it's carbon & discs or rim & alu for me..

2018 TCR with discs is €400 dearer than rim version, far too big a mark up for me as others have said.

doozerie

jon1981 wrote: »

So are we seeing that start to the end of the rim brake now UCI have approved disc brakes?

That's really two questions wrapped up in one:

* Will we all get rid of our rim-braked bikes and wheels in order to move to disc? I won't, but obviously I'll only be able to continue with rim brakes as long as replacement brake pads, etc., remain available.

* Will manufacturers stop producing rim-braked framesets and components and remove the choice from the consumer? If they see more profit in doing so, then presumably they will (case in point, if there is one thing Specialized like, it's profit, hence their litigious nature, personally I think any predictions by them are based entirely on their own best interests and they'll say anything to further them).

CramCycle

I think there are enough small builders out there that an out and out death is unlikely. What is more likely is that innovations and weight savings will stop. I have never ridden Carbon rims, and to be honest, I don't currently have a need to either. In the wet there is about an extra metre in my stopping distance if I haven't been clearing the rims but so far there is no benefit for me and considering the price differences, I'd sooner do the short term cheapskate thing and just replace wheels or rims when needed.

This said, I still see people who have to squeeze their brakes to the bars to get them to stop, this is not the fault of rim brakes, this is poor set up. If they can't maintain rim brakes, lord help them maintaining discs.

Lumen

CramCycle wrote: »

This said, I still see people who have to squeeze their brakes to the bars to get them to stop, this is not the fault of rim brakes, this is poor set up. If they can't maintain rim brakes, lord help them maintaining discs.

Or cantis!

Hydro discs require less maintenance. You can ride them until you hear metal on metal and then take it to a shop.

I've also not touched my brake lines since I bought the bike, maybe three years ago.

DirkVoodoo

Lumen wrote: »

Or cantis!

Hydro discs require less maintenance. You can ride them until you hear metal on metal and then take it to a shop.

I've also not touched my brake lines since I bought the bike, maybe three years ago.

You should remind people here that whenever we have gone out for a jaunt around Howth, I can't ride behind you because you can come to a complete stop before I've had time to react. The idea of that happening in a race terrifies me, at least if everyone has the same level of braking performance, it's somewhat predictable. Now you need to be aware if you're following a guy on discs who can brake later and harder in a corner. If he's in front of you, you risk going into the back of him, if he's behind you, he might go into the back of you because he's not expecting you to brake.

It's not the discs that scare me, it's the mixed performance. And I don't find my carbon rims are that much worse than alloy ones. The gap to hydraulic discs is much, much greater.

In an A4 bunch where some lad buys his new disc-equipped TCR and has his first experience of a bunch in 2019. May God have mercy on us all...

Lumen

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

You should remind people here that whenever we have gone out for a jaunt around Howth, I can't ride behind you because you can come to a complete stop before I've had time to react.

Ah sure, but those (wet) rides involve coming to a complete halt at junctions. The only time you brake like that in a race is when someone has crashed in front of you, and under those circumstances it's every braker for themselves.

The gap between wet carbon rim brakes and wet alu rim brakes hasn't led to calls to ban either in races.

Macy0161

CramCycle wrote:

I think there are enough small builders out there that an out and out death is unlikely. What is more likely is that innovations and weight savings will stop.

I think that's already happening. A few manufacturers are claiming the disc brakes are more aerodynamic than rim, for example.

Can't see unavailability of replacements being an issue for a long time. It may start to slow at the top if there's clear standards and all the pro teams go disc.

smacl

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

It's not the discs that scare me, it's the mixed performance. And I don't find my carbon rims are that much worse than alloy ones. The gap to hydraulic discs is much, much greater.

Pad material also seems to have a big effect here, where resin and teflon pads in my experience have much less stopping power than metal / sintered. I find going back to using rim brakes after well set up disc brakes can be unnerving.

magicbastarder

smacl wrote: »

teflon pads

not heard of these before. isn't teflon, eh, non-stick?

jon1981

Be interesting to see what the feedback is from the Tour de France, mix of rim and disc in the peleton.

smacl

magicbastarder wrote: »

not heard of these before. isn't teflon, eh, non-stick?

My pad, just looked at a set here, kevlar not teflon.

CramCycle

jon1981 wrote: »

Be interesting to see what the feedback is from the Tour de France, mix of rim and disc in the peleton.

Wouldn't really be relevant as braking will be minimal and in really dry conditions for the most part. Bikes will be in such good condition and riders so adept, it would be a near non issue at that level for that type of race.

More interested to hear feedback from UK amateur races that had people turn up with discs in the last year

comanche_cor

CramCycle wrote: »

Wouldn't really be relevant as braking will be minimal and in really dry conditions for the most part. Bikes will be in such good condition and riders so adept, it would be a near non issue at that level for that type of race.

Would there not be an advantage on some of the big descents - being able to brake later and far more controlled braking?

CramCycle

comanche_cor wrote: »

Would there not be an advantage on some of the big descents - being able to brake later and far more controlled braking?

GCN doen a comparison (OK considering their procedures of evaluation, not much good for scientific evidence) but maybe gives an indication. Personally I watched it and thought, I'll stick with rim brakes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0hKMgUEku4

I could be wrong but the discs were faster on the straights and the rims were faster through the corners (I should have rewatched this before posting).

ford2600

From a manufacturers point of view disc brakes are as good as it gets for making kit obselete; all those spares you have frames, wheels, hubs, levers, calipers are now worthless.

While there is an improved braking performance, for the ordinary rider there is so much fruit lower down on tree to put you in a position where you don't need anything other than rim brakes; road position, perception, reaction, braking technique etc etc.

An awful lot of people will of course want to "fix" something immediately than put time into training/learning. Good shortcut have a chat with a motorcycle rider still alive north of 40.

The bicycle is a simple device; adding discs to road bikes is a deviation from that and a fcuk you to the ordinary rider.

I've toured with 20kg loads and rims, descending HC climbs in the wet and "I need better braking" was never my takeaway.

Lumen

It's a bit difficult to argue simultaneously that (a) rim brakes are just as powerful and so disc brakes are pointless, and (b) disc brakes will cause racing carnage because discs are much more powerful.

seamus

I've always liked discs, but never enough to be bothered about retrofitting them, or buying a new bike because I had to have them.

Tbh, v-brakes were touted as the cantilever killer 25 years ago, and yet you'll still have no issues getting your hands on spares for cantis. So I wouldn't go too hard on the idea that your spare parts become obsolete overnight. Indeed, road frames will continue to come with mount points for calipers for a long time yet, because things like mudguards are also dependent on it. So if you really dislike the discs, you can remove them and use your spares instead

As someone who does all my own maintenance, discs are incredibly appealing because they're easier to adjust and require less frequent work. But for the ordinary Joe it probably represents something they need a bike shop to do for them.

I'll likely upgrade next year, so that should be just in time for the mid-level bikes to be produced with discs and Di2.

Alanstrainor

ford2600 wrote: »

The bicycle is a simple device; adding discs to road bikes is a deviation from that and a fcuk you to the ordinary rider.

The same argument could have been said when we moved from single speed bikes to geared bikes to be fair. A bike can be as simple as you want, and any enthusiast will have the option to buy or build their version of the ideal.

I moved to discs a year ago. I've covered 5k km and changed my rear brake pads once, the front pads will be done soon. The performance is fantastic, wet or dry and all in all I'm a fan. I do have my old single speed with v-brakes which perform fine, but not as well as my discs.

sin_26

All in all discs on road bike looks just crappy. Sorry but i`m out so

harringtonp

smacl wrote: »

I suspect very many bikes are bought with a fit of enthusiasm but don't get enough use to wear out anything much. The additional up front cost of discs is likely to outweigh the lost revenue for wheel longevity. It would be interesting to know what percentage of wheels sold are due to replacing worn rims versus being shipped with a new bike or bought as an upgrade.

I've owned a lot of wheels but only ever remember getting to the point of a worn rim once

Borderfox

Its just another choice, I changed to discs two winters ago and will not be going back to rim brakes anytime soon.

magicbastarder

harringtonp wrote: »

I've owned a lot of wheels but only ever remember getting to the point of a worn rim once

i think you may be undermining your own point here...

CramCycle

harringtonp wrote: »

I've owned a lot of wheels but only ever remember getting to the point of a worn rim once

Always the freehub or similar, never the rim, but I always used to buy cheap wheels bar my dynamo ones so I couldn't repair them even though the rim was fine.

Now I have expensive wheels, I will have to wait and see.

kenmc

Commuting through the winter, I'd have gone through a set of pads a year, set of rims at least every 2. Built a disc braked commuter in 2012. Haven't looked at rims or brakes since. Guaranteed stopping power, with a kid on the back, is vital, rather than waiting for the rims and pads to dry sufficiently to take effect.

From that perspective, discs are invaluable. Good road bike wise, either or, currently have rims. If I was replacing it, I'd probably go disc so I'd be able to swap and change if need be