Elderly farmer died & no will made

BronsonTB

Elderly Farmer dies with no will made.

After probate is completed, what happens to the land/assets that remain?
All his siblings are elderly & live abroad.

There is a farm hand who has helped the famer for over 25+ years. He is not family.

If the siblings were agreeable & he took over the farm & assets (tractor, equipment etc).
Would he be left with a huge tax bill because he's not direct family?

banie01

BronsonTB wrote: »

Elderly Farmer dies with no will made.

After probate is completed, what happens to the land/assets that remain?
All his siblings are elderly & live abroad.

There is a farm hand who has helped the famer for over 25+ years. He is not family.

If the siblings were agreeable & he took over the farm & assets (tractor, equipment etc).
Would he be left with a huge tax bill because he's not direct family?

Stranger in law so tax at 33% on everything over €32500.
Also without a specific bequest as a stranger in law, it would be very hard to lay any claim whatsoever to the estate.

I think distribution in this instance would be in line with the intestacy and succession acts.
As such you may not ever be entitled to a share no matter if all surviving relatives refuse theirs.
Easier to marry him alá the recent case in Dublin of a Geriatric and his long term career.

theyoungchap

banie01 wrote: »

Stranger in law so tax at 33% on everything over €32500.
Easier to marry him alá the recent case in Dublin of a Geriatric and his long term career.

I reckon the state will deem that a sham marriage yet. Yeah he'll have to pay 1/3 of it in inheritance tax.

banie01

theyoungchap wrote: »

I reckon the state will deem that a sham marriage yet. Yeah he'll have to pay 1/3 of it in inheritance tax.

I reckon the state will have an awful lot of trouble if they seek to strike out the marriage of 2 Irish citizens as a sham solely on the basis of it being prudent for tax avoidance.
2 people both Compus mentis and free of any immigration or other encumbrance that would restrict a right to legally marry.
Are fully entitled to enter into the contract of marriage should they so choose.
The state should they decide to fight that one would rapidly be on a hiding to nothing as the marriage as contracted was and is perfectly legal.

theyoungchap

banie01 wrote: »

I reckon the state will have an awful lot of trouble if they seek to strike out the marriage of 2 Irish citizens as a sham solely on the basis of it being prudent for tax avoidance.
2 people both Compus mentis and free of any immigration or other encumbrance that would restrict a right to legally marry.
Are fully entitled to enter into the contract of marriage should they so choose.
The state should they decide to fight that one would rapidly be on a hiding to nothing as the marriage as contracted was and is perfectly legal.

Maybe, but its no different to an immigrant marrying an Irish person for the prudence of a visa.....

The state might decide it is not worth following up in this situation though, you are probably right.

Under His Eye

It is only a sham marriage if being done for immigration purposes.

theyoungchap

Under His Eye wrote: »

It is only a sham marriage if being done for immigration purposes.

There are more circumstances than immigration for sham marriages.....

Under His Eye

theyoungchap wrote: »

There are more circumstances than immigration for sham marriages.....

Care to quote the law on that?

seamus

"Love" is not a legal requirement for marriage.

Marriage for the purposes of distributing resources and consolidating non-sexual relationships is as old as time itself; you'd have difficulty arguing that just because two individuals were not planning on having sex that their marriage is a "sham".

Once the relationship itself is genuine and intending to remain in place until the natural death of one or both partners, it's hard to see how a registrar could refuse to register it.

A "marriage of convenience" is specifically defined as one where at least one spouse is a foreign national and the purpose of the marriage is "solely for the purpose of securing an immigration advantage".

A marriage for inheritance purposes is not a "marriage of convenience" under the law and is not specifically disallowed.

Nekarsulm

I'm a farmer, and this is not uncommon.
(Despite 30 years of farm organisations urging people to make a will)
If the surviving relatives are in agreement, gift the long term worker some of the stock or machinery.
Sell the rest and split the proceeds.
Don't forget about the "entitlements" attaching to the land.

Here the owner is dead, so Dept. Ag. will freeze the herd number, making it impossible to sell the animals or avail of the EU payments.
This can turn into a major problem even when there is a surviving spouse .

evolving_doors

How can you marry a corpse lads? Read the thread title:pac:


Need clarification from the OP:

by 'took over' is this take to mean being given sole possession of the land/assets?
or
does it mean that the relatives would retain possession but have the farm-hand work the land with some arrangement about how profits/wages are to be divided.

BarryD2

Yep, maybe the relatives could inherit the assets and arrange to maintain the farm hand on the farm. Could they then sell it to same for a nominal price? Require goodwill of course.

Claw Hammer

Most relatives would just tell the farmhand to go and bugger off. They would then sell the farm and split the proceeds.

BronsonTB

Need clarification from the OP:

by 'took over' is this take to mean being given sole possession of the land/assets?

Yes, it might be a case of the land & assets being gifted to the farmhand who would become the sole owner. (Relatives are elderly & have no interest in the farm)

Since posting earlier, I've read more about the 'Agricultural relief' which would have a big impact on the tax that would be owed if that could be applied.

BattleCorp

What would happen if the elderly relatives did nothing and the farm hand kept working the land (i.e. doesn't own it but has exclusive use of it).

Would the farm hand be able to claim the farm through adverse possession once the required timeframe had elapsed?

Would this negate the need to pay a substantial tax bill (as the land wasn't inherited)?

Nekarsulm

BattleCorp wrote: »

What would happen if the elderly relatives did nothing and the farm hand kept working the land (i.e. doesn't own it but has exclusive use of it).

Would the farm hand be able to claim the farm through adverse possession once the required timeframe had elapsed?

Would this negate the need to pay a substantial tax bill (as the land wasn't inherited)?

Not really possible, because the Dept. Ag. will freeze the Herd Number, preventing any cattle movements , sales or registration of births.
Similarly, the EU funds are all paid by direct payment I to the farmers nominated bank account.
Payments will be frozen, as indeed will be the farmers bank accounts by the bank itself.

A neighbour dropped dead in his yard a few years ago, and all the above happened.
His widow and childen almost starved because of the burecratic mess caused by a) No will, and b) nothing in joint names.
Meanwhile everything had to be fed, supplies bought etc.
Took a year to sort out.

nuac

Nekarsulm wrote: »

Not really possible, because the Dept. Ag. will freeze the Herd Number, preventing any cattle movements , sales or registration of births.
Similarly, the EU funds are all paid by direct payment I to the farmers nominated bank account.
Payments will be frozen, as indeed will be the farmers bank accounts by the bank itself.

A neighbour dropped dead in his yard a few years ago, and all the above happened.
His widow and childen almost starved because of the burecratic mess caused by a) No will, and b) nothing in joint names.
Meanwhile everything had to be fed, supplies bought etc.
Took a year to sort out.

Most banks and/or credit unions will advance funds to pay necessities pending grant of Letters of Administration.