Returning overpaid salary

TierneyRua

Hello!

I received a sickening email from my former employer today (Large contract recruitment agency).

So here's the story: I forgot to log my hours by cut off time one month and in these circumstances the company provides and advance for the month and then takes it back once your hours are logged and processed.

I finished with this company and they forgot to remove the sum of the advance from my final paycheck.

The final paycheck was for a number or weeks work and a lot of holiday pay so I didn't notice that anything was unusual when I seen the figure.

But today they contacted me advising that I was overpaid by €1800 and requesting repayment.

I intend to repay because fair is fair but my question is this: Is there a minimum sum that I will be required to repay montly or could I be chose this figure myself?

I'm about to move away for a year of traveling and this is a bad time for this to happen!

Advice appreciated!

davo10

You didn't notice you were paid €1800 extra?

You are going to need a reference from your employer so don't mess them around, also, you obviously have the money if you are going on holiday/travelling for a year, so, pay it back in one lump sum if you are not going to be around for 12 months, but ask them to correct your tax credits and give you the exact amount you have to return. If you don't do it, think what your reference will be and what they will say when contacted by a future employer.

daheff

davo10 wrote: »

You didn't notice you were paid €1800 extra?

You are going to need a reference from your employer so don't mess them around, also, you obviously have the money if you are going on holiday/travelling for a year, so, pay it back in one lump sum if you are not going to be around for 12 months, but ask them to correct your tax credits and give you the exact amount you have to return. If you don't do it, think what your reference will be and what they will say when contacted by a future employer.

The exact amount you need to return is the extra amount AFTER tax you received.

OMM 0000

Just be honest and reasonable. Let's say you tell them you can afford EUR 50 per week, and they disagree, it's not like they can take you to court - they would lose.

davo10

OMM 0000 wrote: »

Just be honest and reasonable. Let's say you tell them you can afford EUR 50 per week, and they disagree, it's not like they can take you to court - they would lose.

Op is going travelling for a year, to pay €50pw he/she would have the money in an account before he/she went, what's the logic of doing this?

Misguided1

If you didn't notice an extra 1,800 in your wages, it sounds like you can afford to pay it back in one go.
But yes - you can try to agree to pay it back in instalments but if they know you are going travelling, they may be reluctant to put this sort of arrangement in place.

davo10

daheff wrote: »

The exact amount you need to return is the extra amount AFTER tax you received.

Yes, €1800 presumably was the net, why would they give him a tax free payment? But they have to recalculate his tax credits to take into account that there has been an overpayment, this would have been part of the calculations to work out his/her final pay cheque.

beertons

Have you spent it already?

Avatar MIA

Misguided1 wrote: »

If you didn't notice an extra 1,800 in your wages, it sounds like you can afford to pay it back in one go.
But yes - you can try to agree to pay it back in instalments but if they know you are going travelling, they may be reluctant to put this sort of arrangement in place.

The OP going on a planned trip is irrelevant as a persuader to repay in full immediately, the opposite of anything. And an extra 1800 could be 900 after tax, so possibly not noticeable because of holiday pay.

If repaying the 900 or so net tax is going to affect his travel plans then he is entitled to repay as he can afford.

Op, I'd ask them to send you a corrected payslip and calculation of what is is required to be paid back. Pay back what you can afford when you can afford. Explain this to them and it should be fine.

davo10

OMM 0000 wrote: »

it's not like they can take you to court - they would lose.

Interesting, the public service issued a circular informing employees that failure to repay overpayments could result in legal proceedings and employee would be responsible for consequential costs, what do you base your certainty on?

CeilingFly

You could try a payment installment agreement, but then will you "off the record" references stop some further contract work?

I'd just pay it now and be done with it.

If tax was deducted from that, it would be the net amount that you would repay.

Ask them to recalculate the correct net figure by correcting the payroll from that month and to give you a copy of the new payslip with a breakdown of the difference.

The other side of the coin is that they should have noticed the error and I'm sure they added plenty of fees and if you get them to go to a certain amount of effort to give you the correct figure, then it may go on the long finger.

CeilingFly

OMM 0000 wrote: »

it's not like they can take you to court - they would lose.

That is probably the worst unsubstantiated advice I've seen on boards for a long long time.

They would win hands down as they can prove it was overpaid and the OP would have a further few thousand in legal fees.

OMM 0000

CeilingFly wrote: »

That is probably the worst unsubstantiated advice I've seen on boards for a long long time.

They would win hands down as they can prove it was overpaid and the OP would have a further few thousand in legal fees.

You are completely incorrect. Two reasons:

1. A company would never take someone to court over a small claim like this. The legal fees would cost the company significantly more than EUR 1800.

2. Have you never seen what happens when a bank takes someone to court for not paying their mortgage in full? As long as the person is making an attempt to pay back the mortgage, and the amount they're paying back is reasonable, the judge sides with the home owner.

Judges almost always side with the person who is making an honest attempt to pay back a debt. And when you consider this situation - it was the company's mistake and the OP has agreed to pay back the full amount over a period of time, the company would lose.

eagle eye

I'd offer them a 5 euro per week repayment schedule. You don't need to pay it all back in a hurry. They messed up so they should be happy to accept repayment of all funds in a manner that suits you.

davo10

OMM 0000 wrote: »

You are completely incorrect. Two reasons:

1. A company would never take someone to court over a small claim like this. The legal fees would cost the company significantly more than EUR 1800.

2. Have you never seen what happens when a bank takes someone to court for not paying their mortgage in full? As long as the person is making an attempt to pay back the mortgage, and the amount they're paying back is reasonable, the judge sides with the home owner.

Judges almost always side with the person who is making an honest attempt to pay back a debt. And when you consider this situation - it was the company's mistake and the OP has agreed to pay back the full amount over a period of time, the company would lose.

So they can take you to court and they can win?

In doesn't cost that much to take a case, and if the employee is responsible for consequential costs...........

Mortgage court cases are very different, and emotive types, I wouldn't hold them up as an example to back up your opinion about something like this.


But look, chances are this would never result in a court case to recover overpayment, the issue, and it's a huge one, is the reference, piss them off and the reference suffers. By the way, I don't believe for a second that a €1800 overpayment went unnoticed by the op.

Avatar MIA

davo10 wrote: »

So they can take you to court and they can win?

Why is this relevant to the OP, he's willing to pay back in installments. The judge is going to agree to that. 100%. It will also be awkward to arrange a court date what with the OP shin deep in mud traipsing the back end of Borneo. :pac:

irelandrover

Do you really want to be dealing with the possibility of a court case on your travels? Could cost you more to just fly back as well as legal costs.

davo10

Avatar MIA wrote: »

Why is this relevant to the OP, he's willing to pay back in installments. The judge is going to agree to that. 100%. It will also be awkward to arrange a court date what with the OP shin deep in mud traipsing the back end of Borneo. :pac:

It isn't, it only became a topic for discussion when someone posted that the employer could not take a case and would lose hands down.

The only concern for the op should be his/her reference.

Kenny B

eagle eye wrote: »

I'd offer them a 5 euro per week repayment schedule. You don't need to pay it all back in a hurry. They messed up so they should be happy to accept repayment of all funds in a manner that suits you.

The company didn't make a mistake, he never logged his hours so they took him at face value, he should pay it back in a hurry, I struggle to believe €1800 would not be noticed.

If he has the money - pay it back asap, If he doesn't - cut a quick deal, I can't imagine going on holidays leaving this hang, he knows what the right thing to do is - So just do it.

diggerdigger

Avatar MIA wrote: »

Why is this relevant to the OP, he's willing to pay back in installments. The judge is going to agree to that. 100%. It will also be awkward to arrange a court date what with the OP shin deep in mud traipsing the back end of Borneo. :pac:

The fact that the discrepancy came about because the OP did not log his hours correctly, could be portrayed as an intentional act, so could actually be made a fraud case by his employer if not dealt with. In court, holidaying in Borneo will be seen as a discretionary expense, funded by the money the OP should not have.

At the very least, its likely the employer will win the case for the 1800, and will get costs awarded, significantly increasing the costs to the OP.

OP should pay back the money that is not theirs and be done with it. Postpone the extended holiday if needed.

CeilingFly

OMM 0000 wrote: »

Just be honest and reasonable. Let's say you tell them you can afford EUR 50 per week, and they disagree, it's not like they can take you to court - they would lose.

OMM 0000 wrote: »

You are completely incorrect. Two reasons:

1. A company would never take someone to court over a small claim like this. The legal fees would cost the company significantly more than EUR 1800.

2. Have you never seen what happens when a bank takes someone to court for not paying their mortgage in full? As long as the person is making an attempt to pay back the mortgage, and the amount they're paying back is reasonable, the judge sides with the home owner.

Judges almost always side with the person who is making an honest attempt to pay back a debt. And when you consider this situation - it was the company's mistake and the OP has agreed to pay back the full amount over a period of time, the company would lose.

You really really think that?

Banks have to comply with certain onerous legislation that is allowing dishonest people get away with paying little or nothing and the variable rate payers are paying for these people.

An €1800 uncontested debt (you must show a court an arguable case - there is none here) would be easily turned into a judgement with costs of €300-€500 added and then with such judgement the OP would have difficulties for many many years in obtaining any sort of credit facility or loan.

So, I reiterate, your advice is utterly stupid and ridiculous and no-one should heed such abject stupidity

diggerdigger

CeilingFly wrote: »

An €1800 uncontested debt (you must show a court an arguable case - there is none here) would be easily turned into a judgement with costs of €300-€500 added and then with such judgement the OP would have difficulties for many many years in obtaining any sort of credit facility or loan.

So, I reiterate, your advice is utterly stupid and ridiculous and no-one should heed such abject stupidity

100% Agree with this, except the costs would be higher than 300-500.

TierneyRua

Thanks for the advice everyone. I know it seems like a large sum to have not noticed but the final sum I received was for 1.5 months work and a significant number of holiday days so was large figure. Personally, I not very good with calculate tax/rate of pay/ holiday pay so I genuinely didn't question it.

If I was intending to stay in my current role I would just pay it back right away but I have already resigned with a finite sum of money to move abroad to work (not a holiday, I should have been clearer on this).

Not only have I resigned but have given notice to my landlord, bought a one way ticket and have my visa.

I didn't consider the reduction in the sum which could take place once my tax credits are adjusted (again, not great with these things).

Paying in full would mean losing a significant chunk of the money I have saved to move.

CeilingFly

TierneyRua wrote: »

I didn't consider the reduction in the sum which could take place once my tax credits are adjusted (again, not great with these things).

.

It possibly put you on the high rate of tax, hence add prsi, usc + paye and the €1800 overpayment is a net €900

Ask them to rerun the payroll and calculate the real overpayment and after that come to an agreement.

You may find its too much hassle for them

diggerdigger

TierneyRua wrote: »

Paying in full would mean losing a significant chunk of the money I have saved to move.

Sorry to say this isn't really money you saved to move. It was a mistake.

Id ask for a full breakdown of whats due from them including a copy of the what the new final payroll slip would look like.

Then I'd talk to them and explain that you don't have it as per you description above, and try to agree a repayment schedule. They may be open to it. Or they might not bother and suck it up. Depends on the employer.

OMM 0000

CeilingFly wrote: »

An €1800 uncontested debt (you must show a court an arguable case - there is none here) would be easily turned into a judgement with costs of €300-€500 added and then with such judgement the OP would have difficulties for many many years in obtaining any sort of credit facility or loan.

So, I reiterate, your advice is utterly stupid and ridiculous and no-one should heed such abject stupidity

But why are you changing what I said so you can argue a point I'm not making?

It's not an uncontested debt.

The OP accepts he/the company both made a mistake.
The OP is willing to pay back the overpayment.
He can only afford to pay X per week, so that's what he is offering to pay.

The OP is being completely reasonable and any judge would agree with him.

The OP would not have to pay the company's legal fees, which would be way higher than EUR 300 - 500.

I have direct experience with this. At an old employer, 14 years ago, we brought a customer to court for around EUR 2000. Our legal fees were something like EUR 1200, and our company fees (time lost on the case) were way more than that.

The company barely has a case, and it is not in their interest to lose money over this issue.

You really need to chill with your personal insults.

davo10

TierneyRua wrote: »

Thanks for the advice everyone. I know it seems like a large sum to have not noticed but the final sum I received was for 1.5 months work and a significant number of holiday days so was large figure. Personally, I not very good with calculate tax/rate of pay/ holiday pay so I genuinely didn't question it.

If I was intending to stay in my current role I would just pay it back right away but I have already resigned with a finite sum of money to move abroad to work (not a holiday, I should have been clearer on this).

Not only have I resigned but have given notice to my landlord, bought a one way ticket and have my visa.

I didn't consider the reduction in the sum which could take place once my tax credits are adjusted (again, not great with these things).

Paying in full would mean losing a significant chunk of the money I have saved to move.

Ya, but having already received an advance payment, surely you checked to see if it had been deducted from your final pay? This isn't a "saving" and you obviously have the money, so It's just a case that you don't want to pay this back now, not that you can't.

But leaving all that aside, the 2 questions that you have to ask yourself.

1. Will you not returning the money promptly effect your employers opinion of you?

2. Will you need a reference in the future?

_Brian

So, how does someone not notice €1800 extra in their pay, its hard to beleive, it really is. Particularly finishing employment people check their last pay carefully to ensure they've not been left short by an employer.



OP is only going travelling for a year, its not unreasonable that they will have to return to work for this employer or at the least ask for a reference. Taking the urine over this is bad form, they accidently gave you the money and now you won't return it, morally its not that far from stealing the money.



I don't know the business but have worked as a contractor and its not hard to blacken someones reputation in business circles, it happens a fair bit actually.


OP needs to stump up the money.

eagle eye

Kenny B wrote:

The company didn't make a mistake, he never logged his hours so they took him at face value, he should pay it back in a hurry, I struggle to believe €1800 would not be noticed.

If you don't call it a mistake then it's a bad policy. Either way they messed up so they should be happy to get the money back and not in a hurry.

NinjaTruncs

eagle eye wrote: »

If you don't call it a mistake then it's a bad policy. Either way they messed up so they should be happy to get the money back and not in a hurry.

Who is they? As the only person to mess up was the OP. it seems the company is good enough to have a policy where they will pay a full months pay if someone doesn't complete their time cards, this would be advantageous to someone who works a full month and forgets to complete their card, or could be exploited by someone who doesn't work a full month and then gets paid for the full month. If anything, not paying the money back quickly could make the company change their policy, in which case we would have had the OP here saying "I worked two weeks and the company didn't pay me, how do I get my money from them", do you think an offer from the company to repay the OP €5 a month would be fair?

IMO the money should be repaid over the same duration it was overpaid, so in the OPs case, within a month.

eagle eye

If the op was at fault, or had a bad policy then he should be happy to accept whatever arrangement is made.

TierneyRua

Well to make things clear, I did not say at any time that I'm not going to repay the money. That would be dishonest and not something that I would do.

I came here to ask advice about the size of the repayments I would make and if there was a minimum, what that might look like.

Most people probably do review their final paycheck carefully but I didn't. I assumed the payroll staff would have that taken care of.

A ****e lesson learned I suppose!

Thanks for the advice.

_Brian

TierneyRua wrote: »

Well to make things clear, I did not say at any time that I'm not going to repay the money. That would be dishonest and not something that I would do.

I came here to ask advice about the size of the repayments I would make and if there was a minimum, what that might look like.

Most people probably do review their final paycheck carefully but I didn't. I assumed the payroll staff would have that taken care of.

A ****e lesson learned I suppose!

Thanks for the advice.

Start with an €1800 payment and take it from there.

Sir Ophiuchus

If it'd cause you financial difficulty to pay it off in one lump, contact payroll and ask if you can arrange to pay it back in instalments. Then see what options they offer you.

CeilingFly

_Brian wrote: »

Start with an €1800 payment and take it from there.

Start with getting the agency to reissue the payroll based on the correct gross figure so that the correct overpayment amount is calculated.

daheff

davo10 wrote: »

Yes, €1800 presumably was the net, why would they give him a tax free payment? But they have to recalculate his tax credits to take into account that there has been an overpayment, this would have been part of the calculations to work out his/her final pay cheque.

My point is because the employer might ask for the gross amount back....in which case you would be out of pocket until your taxes get sorted. Only repaying what was net received puts the onus on them to sort out your taxes

bobbysands81

davo10 wrote: »

Interesting, the public service issued a circular informing employees that failure to repay overpayments could result in legal proceedings and employee would be responsible for consequential costs, what do you base your certainty on?

I could be wrong here but I think there’s a legislative basis regarding overpayments in the Civil Service.

The way overpayments are treated in the CS is a disgrace. Until recently if you were overpaid by up to 10 days you had 2 paypackets in which to pay this back... and this is not a case of a huge one-off sum being deposited in your account but people overpaid a very small amount every week for a long time.

bobbysands81

TierneyRua wrote: »

Well to make things clear, I did not say at any time that I'm not going to repay the money. That would be dishonest and not something that I would do.

I came here to ask advice about the size of the repayments I would make and if there was a minimum, what that might look like.

Most people probably do review their final paycheck carefully but I didn't. I assumed the payroll staff would have that taken care of.

A ****e lesson learned I suppose!

Thanks for the advice.

8% of your weekly wage is generally the starting point when paying back money in this way. If you can’t afford that then negotiate.

If you want your job back after travelling then tell them that you’ll start paying them back when you return from travelling and get your old job back.

davo10

bobbysands81 wrote: »

8% of your weekly wage is generally the starting point when paying back money in this way. If you can’t afford that then negotiate.

If you want your job back after travelling then tell them that you’ll start paying them back when you return from travelling and get your old job back.

Have you read the thread?

The op has the money, it's not that he can't afford it, he considers the overpayment as part of his "savings" to use when abroad.

The legislative basis applies to all employers, not just the CS, it's covered in the Payment of Wages Act.

Why on earth would they agree to firstly hold his job, and secondly allow him to pay it back in a year? There is no guarantee that he will come back or that he wouldn't take a different job elsewhere.

Op worked for a recruitment agency, he has zero chance of getting a job with them not a reference if the money is not paid back on their terms.

fritzelly

I don't think it would be unreasonable to offer to pay it back over 12 months if they are agreeable...
...but as others have said it was money you were not expecting so how did you work out your budget whereby you need this extra money now?
In all likelihood they could demand full payment (how long ago were you paid?)
If they want it now and you refuse it could be said that by retaining the money you are committing theft/fraud - think of the times ATM's gave more money than they should - and you don't really want that hanging around your neck in the future

micks

CeilingFly wrote: »

That is probably the worst unsubstantiated advice I've seen on boards for a long long time.

They would win hands down as they can prove it was overpaid and the OP would have a further few thousand in legal fees.

why not quote the full post?

OMM 0000 wrote: »

Just be honest and reasonable. Let's say you tell them you can afford EUR 50 per week, and they disagree, it's not like they can take you to court - they would lose.

OP should make an offer - if refused OP would win in court

Pelvis

Tbh, the op is not currently working so if in his position I would say I'll pay it back in instalments but won't be paying a cent until settled in new place with a job secured with regular income.

micks

_Brian wrote: »

Start with an €1800 payment and take it from there.

Start with a request for what is owed post tax not gross

then OP make an offer on what they deem they can afford

1800 gross is approx 900 after tax

that's approx 16 payments of 50 euro - if that is what OP can afford it is not unreasonable



OP you will also be due tax back if you're not working for the rest of the year - that will cover the payments weekly while away - revenue reimburse weekly/monthly AFAIK


As for references - Only an employer would use that as a threat
The majority of companies dont issue official references anymore
most references are on a personal level with an ex manager / co worker / client
I wouldnt worry about that

davo10

micks wrote: »

As for references - Only an employer would use that as a threat
The majority of companies dont issue official references anymore
most references are on a personal level with an ex manager / co worker / client
I wouldnt worry about that

Only the naive would underestimate its importance. It's the personal chat that the op has to keep in mind, a recruitment agency who feel they got stiffed is hardly going to be in a rush to find a job for that person or to recommend him/her to a new employer.

The op can afford it, the money hasn't been spent, it's part of his "savings".

micks

davo10 wrote: »

Only the naive would underestimate its importance. It's the personal chat that the op has to keep in mind, a recruitment agency who feel they got stiffed is hardly going to be in a rush to find a job for that person or to recommend him/her to a new employer.

The op can afford it, the money hasn't been spent, it's part of his "savings".

A recruitment agency that remembers 900 euro in a years time is prob not worth worrying about

fritzelly

micks wrote: »

A recruitment agency that remembers 900 euro in a years time is prob not worth worrying about

You forget how small Ireland is...was in a job where it was mentioned about me to, at the time, my current employer and I was like how do you know them! The two businesses had no dealings with each, just in the same kind of field of work, and I hadn't included my work there due to it being such a short stint.

davo10

micks wrote: »

A recruitment agency that remembers 900 euro in a years time is prob not worth worrying about

It is when it's the one you are looking for a reference from. Employers often forget the ones that were no bother, but the remember the ones who owe them money.

CeilingFly

Here's your letter...


Dear Recruitment Agency

Thanks for the information, I had not realised that there had been an overpayment. Obviously this was taxed and PAYE, PRSI & USC was applied to it, thus the net benefit to me was substantially smaller that the gross amount.

Can you arrange for your payroll dept to rerun the payroll from that period and then revert to me with the correct net figure overpaid and I will arrange payment.

Also, as you may be aware, that the reason for me finishing the contract was that I am embarking on a period of travel and that commences at the end of next week.

As this has come as a surprise to me and I have pr-paid my travel plans, I would hope that the repayment could be in stages, or as a single payment on my return in December when I hope to re-register with yourselves

Regards

OP





Now, you may find they feel its their error and will say its a bonus

Tzardine

Had a similar situation a couple of years back. Woke up one morning to an extra €3000 in my account that I was not expecting. I did not recognise the company name that paid it. Like it is for most people most people, €3000 is a lot of money for me.

Turned out that a company I worked for a year earlier was sold to a UK company. The new owners made a bags of the payroll and paid me €3k thinking I was still on the books. (God knows how)

I got a call a few days later from the company explaining what had happened. Friends and family gave the same advice I am seeing here, do not pay it back, give them €5 a week. I paid it back to them in full within a couple of days of being asked.

I work in a pretty niche industry. This UK company turned out to be a big player in Ireland - and I actually ended up working for them for a while. No way they would have took me on if I stumped them for 3 grand.

My advice, pay the money back in full and as quick as you can. Aside from the fact that they could pursue you for the debt legally, or pass it to a debt collector, you do not want to get a bad name with the recruitment agency. Chances are it will come back to bite you.