Ground floor

skedaddling

Hi

Just looking for some advice, I'm a complete newbie in this but have followed this forum for a while. I'm about to move to Dublin and a small ground floor apartment. For insurance and ease of mind, id like to get an alarm installed. The apartment is wired but nothing is fitted yet.

I figure I need all the windows wired but how would a movement sensor work if i get up in the middle of the night? I think I'll need it monitored as I'm single and wont work anywhere near the apartment.

I'm not that worried about upfront costs but would like to minimise monitoring costs. Any advice would be appreciated. What should i look for that might be obvious to you but a newbie might miss?

kub

Hi OP, so the apartment is already wired for an alarm system?
You are correct with regard to getting your windows fitted, what we recommend is shock sensors and contacts, therefore should a force be applied to the glass/ frame, then the system will detect it and activate, also should one of the windows/ doors be opened then the system will activate as well so that is a belt and braces solution there.
With regard to the beam, or movement detector, it gets programmed accordingly so when you are in at night you turn the system on a different way and the system goes into a part guard mode whereby only the perimeter is active and the system will ignore the signals from the beam.

Then onto monitoring, well a system is only as good as the response it receives.
I would certainly recommend professional monitoring.
The best advice I would give you would be to get onto 3 licensed installers and get them to propose systems to you but in writing so you can prepare like with like.
Be very wary of any installer who mentions free notifications, these cannot transmit alarm activations in the event of a power cut.

KoolKid

skedaddling wrote: »

Hi

Just looking for some advice, I'm a complete newbie in this but have followed this forum for a while. I'm about to move to Dublin and a small ground floor apartment. For insurance and ease of mind, id like to get an alarm installed. The apartment is wired but nothing is fitted yet.

I figure I need all the windows wired but how would a movement sensor work if i get up in the middle of the night? I think I'll need it monitored as I'm single and wont work anywhere near the apartment.

I'm not that worried about upfront costs but would like to minimize monitoring costs. Any advice would be appreciated. What should i look for that might be obvious to you but a newbie might miss?

Hi
Get yourself a few quotations from some good licenced installers & discuss what systems suit you best.
Central station monitoring is good, but expensive enough. This works best if you have keyholders nearby that can respond quickly. Domestic alarms are not a priority for the Guards so that is where. where your self monitoring comes in.
Take a look at the sticky here there is some good information in it.
To break it down simply most systems like GSD, Siemens Vanderbilt & Risco offer apps that start with free options or you can have a GSM/GPRS back up if you are concerned about events re a power cut etc.
To say free systems don't notify you in the event of a power cut is not entirely correct.
Lets take a couple of examples of what might happen with say GSD.
Burglar gains entry through front door & unplugs modem or turns off the power . You will get an instant notification UNVERIFIED INTRUSION.
If the power is cut, without any alarm event you will get a notification after 5,10,15 minutes network down.
If you feel the need for GSM/GPRS back Up this is available at around €40 per annum. This will keep the app/notifications running in the event of a power cut. You will also still get network fail notifications in 5/10 or 15 minutes.
No lets compare to the HKC system where you must sign up for monthly/annual subscriptions.
App itself is €7.99
Subscriptions start at €4.99 per month
In the event of a power cut you will still get your notifications like the paid options suggested above.
The down fall is in the event of the network or service being down the notification comes 5 hours later.
You can pay a premium rate of €84 where total comms fail will be 90 minutes instead of 5 hours.
Myself, I would prefer 5 minutes.
Many combine this with central station monitoring where both IP & GSM/GPRS are monitored with comms fail notified in 15 minutes.


Again , different people have different needs & wants when it comes to this.
Get a few company's out to show you different systems with different options.
Go over all the details & options & see what suits. My advice would be start with free & add on what you require re back ups etc. This way you are not tied to subscriptions for the life of your system. However if you go the other way and sign up to a subscription only model you are tied to that for the life of your system.

kub

OP, with domestic systems and should you choose the HKC top class manufactured equipment you can actually get a GSM unit to which you can put your own SIM card into and you can self manage that.
So this mention of you having to pay to download an App and pay monthly is just a better option
Well to tell the truth it is actually much better than all those free items as mentioned above.
I know installers that have had terrible problems with two of those three manufacturers mentioned in that last post.
As for that rubbish about Gardai not responding to domestic intruder alarm activations, that is absolutely not true.

KoolKid

You are constantly making claims about other systems people are having trouble with.
It would be helpful if maybe you could tell people which panels you are claiming are so bad.
All panels discussed. conform to EN50131.
I have discussed free & paid for options & I have explained the differences for the OP.
So lets examine like for like here. If both systems have GSM /GPRS back up what will happen in the event of a power cut & GSM being jammed.
As for Garda response , everyone knows how that goes. Domestic alarms are not priority calls unless its a Panic Alarm.

kub

KoolKid wrote: »

You are constantly making claims about other systems people are having trouble with.
It would be helpful if maybe you could tell people which panels you are claiming are so bad.
All panels discussed. conform to EN50131.
I have discussed free & paid for options & I have explained the differences for the OP.
So lets examine like for like here. If both systems have GSM /GPRS back up what will happen in the event of a power cut & GSM being jammed.
As for Garda response , everyone knows how that goes. Domestic alarms are not priority calls unless its a Panic Alarm.

As always and as I have recently mentioned on another thread here, you could not help yourself yet again having a pop at HKC.


Thank you for proving my point.


With regard to issues with other manufacturers products, then instead of boring the OP, go over to Facebook and have a look at what other professional installers in our field have to say about some of those other manufacturers.


As for Garda response, you speak for everyone do you?


If that was true then the likes of Phonewatch who are always advertising and mentioning notifying Gardai etc, could be done for false advertisement.


Look your free this that and the other, your incessant pops at HKC have all been demonstrated here on this thread.


OP my apologies about this, the other poster here as usual is demonstrating his inability to give people all the options.


As i have said, just go and have a chat with at least 3 licensed installers and have a chat directly with them.

KoolKid

I am not having a pop at any company I am simply comparing the options different company's offer.

You are now using Facebook as a defence?
As you referring to the installers page?
1) It's private so others here wouldn't be able to view it.
2)HKC have gotten quite a hammering there in recent times over the service outages as you know.
3)Facebook, where anything can be said.

Again if you are going to refer to problems about other systems you don't like at least name them so others here know what you are talking about.

As for Garda response. PW were taken to hand over claiming Garda response and claiming response times. That's why their adverts no say GUARDS NOT Gardai.Everyone in the industry knows that.
I was comparing like with like on systems with GSM back up, yet you still go on with the free grievance.
So again if both these systems also have GSM back up what will be the result of a power cut and GSM being jammed?
Do you not think it is important that this vulnerability be explained to people?

Del2005

kub wrote: »

Hi OP, so the apartment is already wired for an alarm system?
You are correct with regard to getting your windows fitted, what we recommend is shock sensors and contacts, therefore should a force be applied to the glass/ frame, then the system will detect it and activate, also should one of the windows/ doors be opened then the system will activate as well so that is a belt and braces solution there.
With regard to the beam, or movement detector, it gets programmed accordingly so when you are in at night you turn the system on a different way and the system goes into a part guard mode whereby only the perimeter is active and the system will ignore the signals from the beam.

Then onto monitoring, well a system is only as good as the response it receives.
I would certainly recommend professional monitoring.
The best advice I would give you would be to get onto 3 licensed installers and get them to propose systems to you but in writing so you can prepare like with like.
Be very wary of any installer who mentions free notifications, these cannot transmit alarm activations in the event of a power cut.

On monitoring. Unless you have someone next door constantly it's not much use. My Sister has a paid system and after her and her husband are called I'm next. The Gardaí won't respond to a domestic alarm unless it's a confirmed burglary so they will be well gone as I'm at least 20 minutes away.

A few cameras inside and out will at least let you see who robbed you. Monitoring just lets you know you are being robbed.

kub

Using Facebook as a defence, what are you on about at all?
Granted the OP cannot see the page but at the same time and with respect to the OP, I wonder is this getting a bit boring for him / her.

The facts are, the systems which you have mentioned are up on that page and professional installers are saying it as it is.

As for me mentioning what issues are with what manufacturer, well now, I know someone here will be straight onto one of them should I say it as it is with that company. Now that does not bother me as I would not dare use their equipment anyway, but I am not going down to your own level here and bad mouthing a manufacturer.
Suffice to say, we only install HKC equipment, which I know upsets you.
If it's any consultation we occasionally install another manufacturers equipment in certain premises.
So your one trick ponies comment will not stand here so don't bother mentioning it.

Yet again you are demonstrating your inability to see beyond the issue that HKC had with their GSM provider, this issue also affected payment terminals, something HKC do not manufacturer or have anything to do with.
Before you say it as well, they were not out for hours on end either.

I am of course mentioning this as it is quite clear from the way you are mentioning it that you have no clue about this issue, it just goes to prove again you or the company that you work for have no HKC systems out there because if they did then you would be aware of the situation 2 weeks ago and what exactly occurred.

Interesting that for someone who likes to think he gives all the options.

The OP in this instance never mentioned Free, on you came as always and banged the free drum and rubbished HKC because they charge
You failed of course to mention the possibility of a GSM Q being connected to the HKC panel to which the OP could put in their own self managed pay as you go SIM.
Rather you said they had to subscribe and that they had to pay for HKC.

The fact is they don't.

Again thank you for proving my point about how you cannot help yourself when someone comes on here and queries a new alarm installation.

Also once again what you said about Garda response is absolute rubbish.

Are you resorting to that here now to promote your free options?

kub

Del2005 wrote:

On monitoring. Unless you have someone next door constantly it's not much use. My Sister has a paid system and after her and her husband are called I'm next. The Gardaí won't respond to a domestic alarm unless it's a confirmed burglary so they will be well gone as I'm at least 20 minutes away.

Del2005 wrote:

A few cameras inside and out will at least let you see who robbed you. Monitoring just lets you know you are being robbed.

If someone can break into that house that you mentioned and not cause a verified alarm activation, then I would go back to the original installer and get it repaired as the Garda response criteria with regard to intruder alarm response came about in 2005.
That criteria mentions keyholder response time and I hope you will be glad to know that your 20 minutes is within that time frame.

Interesting though that from your own experience that Gardai will attend to alarm activations.

KoolKid

I agree it's probably getting boring. Listening to advertisements for the one company will do that to most people.
So I won't dissect your post with the same over and over.
Can you show me where I have slated or attacked HKC please.?
Funny how you are happy to mention brand when you are promoting what you want, but you won't mention brand when you can't stand over your comments.
It's a public forum that is viewable to everyone. Why would you be concerned about what someone might pass on when anyone can see it anyway.
Also amazing that you see what you want to see on the installers page and ignore everything else.
It's a pity it's a private page because it is much more balanced with much more diverse opinions.
You are still going on about free when I have twice said we are comparing like with like on GSM options.
You ignored that.
I pointed out about PW and claims of Garda Response.
You ignored that.
I have again asked you what would happen your options in the event of a power cut and GSM jammed.
You ignored that.
You clearly only want to point out the positives on the HKC system that you wish to sell.
In the event of a power cut and GSM not available HKC will notify communication fault in 5 hours. 90 Minutes if you pay more.
GSD can notify in 5 minutes.
Siemens Vanderbilt can be even quicker.
On Garda response times to domestic alarms everyone knows the reality. Even Gardai members will tell you the same.
Why do you feel I would be upset with what systems you install? We are comparing manufacturers, why personalise that?
Again you seem more concerned in making comments about the company I work for.
False comments at that.
We do install HKC. I have never said we don't.
I'd say we easily have 1000 plus HKC systems out there.
It's just people want choice, and that's not what everyone wants.
People might not want monitoring that's up to them.
People might not want to pay for app GSM back up. That's up to them.
People may not even want self monitoring that's up to them.
This forum is about giving people information and letting them choose. Not attacking anyone and everyone who is not promoting or selling what you want.

kub

KoolKid wrote: »

I agree it's probably getting boring. Listening to advertisements for the one company will do that to most people.

That is correct and read the thread again, no one mentioned any manufacturers until you came along.
But the thing about HKC of course is that with regard to domestic installations well they tick all the boxes, your options do not tick as many and some of the manufacturers as you mentioned just are not as good in the quality stakes.

KoolKid wrote: »

So I won't dissect your post with the same over and over.
Can you show me where I have slated or attacked HKC please.?

But i will dissect yours as here we are yet again and you are demonstrating exactly as i said you do in the sticky thread, you know, the one you bailed out of ?


So as i have said previously, no one mentioned any manufacturers until you came along with this:


To say free systems don't notify you in the event of a power cut is not entirely correct.
Lets take a couple of examples of what might happen with say GSD.
Burglar gains entry through front door & unplugs modem or turns off the power . You will get an instant notification UNVERIFIED INTRUSION.
If the power is cut, without any alarm event you will get a notification after 5,10,15 minutes network down.
If you feel the need for GSM/GPRS back Up this is available at around €40 per annum. This will keep the app/notifications running in the event of a power cut. You will also still get network fail notifications in 5/10 or 15 minutes.
No lets compare to the HKC system where you must sign up for monthly/annual subscriptions.
App itself is €7.99
Subscriptions start at €4.99 per month
In the event of a power cut you will still get your notifications like the paid options suggested above.
The down fall is in the event of the network or service being down the notification comes 5 hours later.
You can pay a premium rate of €84 where total comms fail will be 90 minutes instead of 5 hours.
Myself, I would prefer 5 minutes.


Which is wrong, you DO NOT HAVE TO SIGN UP FOR MONTHLY/ ANNUAL SUBSCRIPTIONS WITH HKC.


Please get your facts right and do as you claim you do and do please give people all the options.

KoolKid wrote: »

Funny how you are happy to mention brand when you are promoting what you want, but you won't mention brand when you can't stand over your comments.

Actually you will find upon reading back in this thread that it was YOU who firstly mentioned different manufacturers, not me :rolleyes:.


As for HKC, they do not need me to promote them, as you well know they manufacturer quality security equipment and that is why they have over 80% of the market.


I use them, I fit their gear, it does what it says, gives me no issues and lasts for years.

KoolKid wrote: »

It's a public forum that is viewable to everyone. Why would you be concerned about what someone might pass on when anyone can see it anyway.
Also amazing that you see what you want to see on the installers page and ignore everything else.
It's a pity it's a private page because it is much more balanced with much more diverse opinions.

See what i want to see and ignore everything else, sorry but is it the way you can read my mind or what?
Indeed it is a pity it is a private page as I would love to let people read about the technical issues with some of your recommendations.
As for it being viewable to everyone, I bet this must be boring reading and i cannot imagine many, except your own fan base of course, having much interest in these spats.

KoolKid wrote: »

You are still going on about free when I have twice said we are comparing like with like on GSM options.
You ignored that.

Oh no you did not:


Here have another read of this, your own words:


To say free systems don't notify you in the event of a power cut is not entirely correct.
Lets take a couple of examples of what might happen with say GSD.
Burglar gains entry through front door & unplugs modem or turns off the power . You will get an instant notification UNVERIFIED INTRUSION.
If the power is cut, without any alarm event you will get a notification after 5,10,15 minutes network down.
If you feel the need for GSM/GPRS back Up this is available at around €40 per annum. This will keep the app/notifications running in the event of a power cut. You will also still get network fail notifications in 5/10 or 15 minutes.
No lets compare to the HKC system where you must sign up for monthly/annual subscriptions.
App itself is €7.99
Subscriptions start at €4.99 per month
In the event of a power cut you will still get your notifications like the paid options suggested above.
The down fall is in the event of the network or service being down the notification comes 5 hours later.
You can pay a premium rate of €84 where total comms fail will be 90 minutes instead of 5 hours.
Myself, I would prefer 5 minutes.


So show me there where you did that please?

KoolKid wrote: »

I pointed out about PW and claims of Garda Response.
You ignored that.

Because it is rubbish, I am sure i don't need to tell you about Garda response criteria.

KoolKid wrote: »

I have again asked you what would happen your options in the event of a power cut and GSM jammed.
You ignored that.

My options, are we speaking about this particular thread here or something else ?
The OP here was just looking for advice on an intruder alarm system that they wanted monitored.


On you came with your usual.


Instead of just suggesting that the OP just gets licensed installers around to specify a system, you immediately went a step further and went into various manufacturers.


Why did you that?


Just in my own experience one really needs to see a premises before one can specify things, but at least with my own choice there are much much less compromises that have to be made.

KoolKid wrote: »

You clearly only want to point out the positives on the HKC system that you wish to sell.
In the event of a power cut and GSM not available HKC will notify communication fault in 5 hours. 90 Minutes if you pay more.
GSD can notify in 5 minutes.
Siemens Vanderbilt can be even quicker.

I am baffled here with your comment as to the system i want to sell, I am not on here trying to sell anything.
I don't need to, HKC as I have already mentioned sells itself.


Now with regard to the rest of that, we have already gone into that discussion elsewhere here and again, you gave up on post number 362.


https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057394782&page=25

KoolKid wrote: »

On Garda response times to domestic alarms everyone knows the reality. Even Gardai members will tell you the same.

Oh yet again, rubbish, I know lots of Gardai and have a great working relationship with them, the point of that matter is, they do respond to domestic alarm activations as per their 2005 response criteria.


Or maybe your systems might be somewhat limited with regard to verification from their wireless devices.

KoolKid wrote: »

Why do you feel I would be upset with what systems you install? We are comparing manufacturers, why personalise that?

Manufacturers are not personalities, it is you who seems to get very disturbed when those three letters HK and C are mentioned.

KoolKid wrote: »

Again you seem more concerned in making comments about the company I work for.
False comments at that.

You might have a read of post 3 on this particular thread here, you wrote it, all i am doing is stating fact.


https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057868084


There are plenty of others if you want i can dig them out for you later on.

KoolKid wrote: »

We do install HKC. I have never said we don't.
I'd say we easily have 1000 plus HKC systems out there.
It's just people want choice, and that's not what everyone wants.
People might not want monitoring that's up to them.
People might not want to pay for app GSM back up. That's up to them.
People may not even want self monitoring that's up to them.
This forum is about giving people information and letting them choose. Not attacking anyone and everyone who is not promoting or selling what you want.

Of course you have lots of old HKC systems out there, good quality gear does last infairness.
Besides they must have made thousands and thousands of them before they took over Astec and upset you.


I have highlighted a line above which is a total contradiction to the OP's request on this particular thread.
The OP did mention that they wanted monitoring.

KoolKid

Again, around and around in circles you go to promote the one brand you are interested in.

I offered the OP options on both free and paid back up options. But still you are ranting on about power cuts.
Yet not a word about power cuts or service disruptions. More of them on the installer's page again this morning as I'm sure you have seen.

You continue to go on about other manufacturers that you won't name. So those constant comments are irrelevant.
Really pointless making comments you are clearly unwilling to stand over.

All systems have the option of GSM back up.
All systems let you do this with your own sim card if you want. Not sure what's so great about HKC having that option either.

kub

Because HKC having that option is something you either forgot or disregarded when you said specifically stated that you must set up a subscription with HKC and pay monthly/ annually.
For which you don't.
So I would respectfully suggest that you get your options correct rather than doing as you always do and immediately portray HKC as robbers just because they provide a top of the range app that people in my own experience love and have no issues paying for.

kub

KoolKid wrote:

Again, around and around in circles you go to promote the one brand you are interested in.

Interested in? No it's not that, just that it does exactly what I as a professional need it to do.

I don't need to look elsewhere.

Especially with one of the manufacturers you keep mentioning.

kub

KoolKid wrote:

I offered the OP options on both free and paid back up options. But still you are ranting on about power cuts. Yet not a word about power cuts or service disruptions. More of them on the installer's page again this morning as I'm sure you have seen.

So the OP comes on here and asks for advise about a monitored system and you as a professional comes on and offers them a free option for professional monitoring.

Do you think that is professional?
Do you actually think that relaying an alarm/ panic alarm/ verified alarm etc through someone's plugged in router which is not part of their security system to a professional monitoring company is?

As I have already mentioned, if guys like you conduct business like that then I really hope that standards can be reviewed.

It is something I would not dream of and the same with anyone else I know in this field.

KoolKid

I also have plenty of new HKC systems out there also. I have plenty of all other manufacturers as well. It's just I don't feel the need to post advertisements about it in every post.
Again you seem more interested in the company I work for instead of just comparing systems and options. Especially as everything you are trying to say about where I work is false and like your claims about nameless manufacturers you keep going on about you can't back any of it up.
Anyway I am more concerned with comparing the options and services from the different manufactures.
Many installers giving out about their HKC apps not working again this morning.
No doubt you will deny this.
No doubt it will be the networks fault, or maybe the phones fault or even android's fault.
Again, no manufacturer is perfect. But the best solution when there is an app problem or network problem is to know about it quickly.In these instances I'd prefer 5 minutes, or less rather than 90 minutes or 5 hours.

Where are you constantly getting the reference to alarm monitoring over WiFi or IP only.??
Who are you claiming does this?
Again if duel path monitoring goes through a cloud service/GSM I'm sure you agree notification of the comms fault would be better after 15 minutes and not 90 minutes or even hours later.

kub

KoolKid wrote: »

I also have plenty of new HKC systems out there also. I have plenty of all other manufacturers as well. It's just I don't feel the need to post advertisements about it in every post.

But if that was the case and if you had plenty of new HKC systems out there it seems very strange to me that the information which you presented in our recent debate on this thread;


https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057394782&page=24


Therefore how come you only learnt of this brief issue through facebook and that your own customers who had ' these new HKC systems' never got onto you?


Besides, how come you never ever say on threads here that you install HKC systems?


All you ever offer is GSD and Siemens/ Vanderbilt, the only mention of HKC by you is to blacken them to the poster.



As is already covered well and truly here:


https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057394782

KoolKid wrote: »

Again you seem more interested in the company I work for instead of just comparing systems and options. Especially as everything you are trying to say about where I work is false and like your claims about nameless manufacturers you keep going on about you can't back any of it up.

I seem more interested in the company you work for?


I am at a loss as to where I made a reference to that company anywhere, the only reference i have given was to posts as written by you proclaiming the systems that ye use, install and recommend.


If everything is false as to what i said then it is you who posted those facts so perhaps look to your own posts if that is the case.


With regard to saying things about other manufacturers,

do you really think i am naive as to the libel laws in this country?
Do you think i am that foolish :rolleyes:
So sorry your bait is not going to work.




See I can read and hear things from fellow installers and always I am happy to stick with HKC.

KoolKid wrote: »

Anyway I am more concerned with comparing the options and services from the different manufactures.

But why is it that your primary concern is always, always and always as below, blabbing on about polling times?


See I am more concerned with every part of a security system, not just that and perhaps that is why HKC is above all others.

KoolKid wrote: »

Many installers giving out about their HKC apps not working again this morning.
No doubt you will deny this.
No doubt it will be the networks fault, or maybe the phones fault or even android's fault.
Again, no manufacturer is perfect. But the best solution when there is an app problem or network problem is to know about it quickly.In these instances I'd prefer 5 minutes, or less rather than 90 minutes or 5 hours.

And off he goes again, firstly your first doubt is knocked on the head as thankfully i can read and i also have access to the engineers Facebook page. So yes a few seemed have had issues.


With regard to your second doubt, it could be anything, it could be anything as you mentioned there, i cannot say, as I had no issues with my own HKC Securecomm connections and none of my customers have been on.
So all i can say there is that, I have experienced no issues whatsoever this morning with HKC Securecomm.
Working brilliantly as usual.

JUST AN UPDATE THERE ON THAT ISSUE, THERE IS NO FAULT WITH HKC, SECURECOMM OR ANYTHING THEY CAN CONTROL, ACCORDING TO ONE OF THE INSTALLERS ON THAT FACEBOOK PAGE TO WHICH YOU KEEP MENTIONING THE ISSUE WAS WITH THE GOOGLE PLAY STORE APP LICENSING BUG.

Just as well HKC are not as petty as other manufacturers with liable concerns, because there might be some things you said of interest.


But you know what i would prefer and what i think is essential is that a professionally installed system can transmit actual alarm events during a power cut. Your free option there will leave an awful lot to be desired.
A comms fault is not a report of an alarm activation.
Enough of them and its boy crying wolf and a complacent customer who will round on their installer if the worst occurs.

KoolKid wrote: »

Where are you constantly getting the reference to alarm monitoring over WiFi or IP only.??
Who are you claiming does this?

Well that is very easy to answer, see the OP of this thread said:


Hi

Just looking for some advice, I'm a complete newbie in this but have followed this forum for a while. I'm about to move to Dublin and a small ground floor apartment. For insurance and ease of mind, id like to get an alarm installed. The apartment is wired but nothing is fitted yet.

I figure I need all the windows wired but how would a movement sensor work if i get up in the middle of the night? I think I'll need it monitored as I'm single and wont work anywhere near the apartment.

To which you replied:


Hi
Get yourself a few quotations from some good licenced installers & discuss what systems suit you best.
Central station monitoring is good, but expensive enough. This works best if you have keyholders nearby that can respond quickly. Domestic alarms are not a priority for the Guards so that is where. where your self monitoring comes in.
Take a look at the sticky here there is some good information in it.
To break it down simply most systems like GSD, Siemens Vanderbilt & Risco offer apps that start with free options or you can have a GSM/GPRS back up if you are concerned about events re a power cut etc.


So to summaries, the OP admits they have limited experience and this is all new to them.
The OP specifically says they want their system monitored.
The solution you offer is your infamous FREE.
Which says quite clearly to me and from a technical perspective, you are suggesting connecting an alarm system via a router to a monitoring station.
I am sure any and every installer would agree with my reading and understanding of that, unless you are proposing smoke signals or telepathy :rolleyes:


So your advice here to the poster is at best very unprofessional.

KoolKid wrote: »

Again if duel path monitoring goes through a cloud service/GSM I'm sure you agree notification of the comms fault would be better after 15 minutes and not 90 minutes or even hours later.

That old nugget of yours again, good man.


It has all been discussed through and through already here:


https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057394782

KoolKid

Again a big speel about how I carry on business for the company I work for.
Totally irrelevant to any discussions we are having on manufacturers services and features.
Yet, bizarrely that's all you want to talk about in every thread
I am not trying to bait you with anything. It's just pointless making vague other systems with all these vague words and claims from friends of friends or something.
You could be talking about Risco Pyronix UTC GSD Galaxy or any other number of systems.
Are we not free to recommend who we want here?
Do we have to list every panel we user?
Do we now have to recommend what you want us to.

Why don't you just let people have the discussions instead of turning every thread into the HKC sponsored half hour?
People know all about the free, the not free and everything else.
Let's just discuss the features

kub

KoolKid wrote: »

Again a big speel about how I carry on business for the company I work for.
Totally irrelevant to any discussions we are having on manufacturers services and features.
Yet, bizarrely that's all you want to talk about in every thread
I am not trying to bait you with anything. It's just pointless making vague other systems with all these vague words and claims from friends of friends or something.
You could be talking about Risco Pyronix UTC GSD Galaxy or any other number of systems.
Are we not free to recommend who we want here?
Do we have to list every panel we user?
Do we now have to recommend what you want us to.

Why don't you just let people have the discussions instead of turning every thread into the HKC sponsored half hour?
People know all about the free, the not free and everything else.
Let's just discuss the features

I am very surprised at you.
I thought you could understand threads and all that kind of stuff, obviously an overestimation on my half.


Anyway this a thread that was started with someone not knowing much about alarms.


In you come and on post 3 YOU STARTED COMPARING HKC AND GSD.


You did that, not me.


You brought in your Free options just as i predicated on post 2 and just as i mentioned in this thread recently; https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057394782


This particular thread was not about comparing manufacturers, you steered it there.


Again nowhere in that last post did i mention the company you worked for.
I did tell you last week in that other thread, you know the one you bailed out of?
That i would pull you anytime you come on to threads with your Free.


But in this thread, you started it.

KoolKid

So if a poster starts a thread asking about what alarm to choose we shouldn't be offering advice and comparison different makes of system and different services and features?
Should we just stick to your agenda and all praise the system you want to promote and discuss who I work for?
Another thread dominated by your agenda.
Good luck

kub

KoolKid wrote:

So if a poster starts a thread asking about what alarm to choose we shouldn't be offering advice and comparison different makes of system and different services and features? Should we just stick to your agenda and all praise the system you want to promote and discuss who I work for? Another thread dominated by your agenda. Good luck

Here we are in a thread where the OP started a query about getting a monitored alarm system installed in their apartment.
I was first to reply, I gave the OP general logical advise, which I took from reading the post was what they wanted to know.

Along you come in post 3 and start your usual, Free this, that and the other, then giving incorrect information about HKC, mentioning that an App would need to be purchased and a subscription payed monthly or annually, which is not the case as you obviously forgot or just did not know about the GSM Q still doing the rounds.

Now as you have mentioned lots and lots of times, your famous options, your free this and that, the systems that you recommend and those which the company you work for uses.
And always, each and everytime you mention HKC and portray them as robbers.

Now I do not have any vested interests here on this forum, my business does not need it so I do not as you always put it, try to or need to sell anything here.

Anyway back to the point, we have a sticky which comparisons are made between different manufacturers products, you know the one, that one you bailed out of recently.

Well there.

So can I ask what is the point in boring someone like the OP here with your rubbish?
I mean that is up to the companies that the OP gets onto for quotes, they are the guys who will view the premises and it is surely up to them to give the OP all the options.
After all they will be connecting it to a CS and certifying it accordingly so the design of the system is between the installer and their client
As the OP here said, their knowledge was limited so along you came and you could not help yourself doing your usual trick and calling HKC robbers in an indirect way.

The thread was not dominated by my agenda, it was dominated by yours and your typical way of bad mouthing HKC.
As always with you it is a case of any manufacturer except HKC.

Anyway that is your problem, you have the obvious chip, I don't.

But I will keep calling you on it, let me assure you of that.

KoolKid

kub wrote: »

Along you come in post 3 and start your usual, Free this, that and the other, then giving incorrect information about HKC, mentioning that an App would need to be purchased and a subscription payed monthly or annually, which is not the case as you obviously forgot or just did not know about the GSM Q still doing the rounds.

So now you are recommending this instead of the paid for app?

kub wrote: »

Now as you have mentioned lots and lots of times, your famous options, your free this and that, the systems that you recommend and those which the company you work for uses.

Again you are more interested in the company I work for & what we do.
We recommend all options & let the customer decide.
More false information,a bit like your earlier false claim that we don't install HKC.

kub wrote: »

And always, each and everytime you mention HKC and portray them as robbers.

More false allegations.
All I have done is quote their pricing.

kub wrote: »

So can I ask what is the point in boring someone like the OP here with your rubbish?
I mean that is up to the companies that the OP gets onto for quotes, they are the guys who will view the premises and it is surely up to them to give the OP all the options.

So you don't want anyone here responding or giving advice?

kub wrote: »

After all they will be connecting it to a CS and certifying it accordingly so the design of the system is between the installer and their client
As the OP here said, their knowledge was limited so along you came and you could not help yourself doing your usual trick and calling HKC robbers in an indirect way.

Again more false allegations.
All I have done is quite their prices.

kub wrote: »

The thread was not dominated by my agenda, it was dominated by yours and your typical way of bad mouthing HKC.
As always with you it is a case of any manufacturer except HKC.

I am offering different manufacturers to your one that is all.
We are just discussing options you are the one personalizing it all the time.

kub

KoolKid wrote: »

So now you are recommending this instead of the paid for app?

No, as i have previously mentioned, this little nugget has not gone away and it will take the wind out of your sails from now on with your usual references to HKC and their App that has to be paid for and their sub charges for their service.
So just to say again, in post 3 of this thread you were so so wrong

KoolKid wrote: »

Again you are more interested in the company I work for & what we do.
We recommend all options & let the customer decide.
More false information,a bit like your earlier false claim that we don't install HKC.

Look i have no interest in the company you work for, I must say you certainly take things very personal.
Anyway that is your issue.
No and as you demonstrate here in this forum and said plenty of times, Ye recommend and install GSD and Siemens Vanderbilt.
All i am going by again is what you mention on your posts in this forum.



How many times have you called those that install HKC systems one trick ponies ?


Why is it that you attempt always to turn people away from HKC, by always going on about their polling times and App charges?


Come on KoolKid you still have that chip over them taking over Astec.


Now drop the act please, I do not believe you that you actively recommend and install HKC systems.


Besides your complete lack of knowledge with regard to recent issues with Securecomm, your false and wrong posts here about those, suggest that you do not install HKC systems.


Once upon a time you probably did, but not anymore, be honest please.

KoolKid wrote: »

More false allegations.
All I have done is quote their pricing.

Again lets be honest here and please drop the holier than thou business, in all my years on this forum I have never ever read one of your posts whereby you ever said anything positive about HKC.
You are always the critic, putting down installers who use HKC and calling them all one trick ponies,
Critising them for only offering one option etc.
Now deny any of that and i will gladly start dragging up all your old posts.

KoolKid wrote: »

So you don't want anyone here responding or giving advice?

No not at all, just give them the advice they ask for, not your usual Free Free Free and then your comparison to the bold HKC
As i said, I let whomever posts a query about a new system to follow the advise of the installers who arrive at their homes.
I know of course most will recommend HKC which is only natural and i know your feelings there that you have to get that dig in about polling times and charges in early so that you blacken HKC's name.

KoolKid wrote: »

Again more false allegations.
All I have done is quite their prices.

How in the name of all is good, could that statement be false, here is post 3 from this thread, God do you read your own posts at all?


Hi
Get yourself a few quotations from some good licenced installers & discuss what systems suit you best.
Central station monitoring is good, but expensive enough. This works best if you have keyholders nearby that can respond quickly. Domestic alarms are not a priority for the Guards so that is where. where your self monitoring comes in.
Take a look at the sticky here there is some good information in it.
To break it down simply most systems like GSD, Siemens Vanderbilt & Risco offer apps that start with free options or you can have a GSM/GPRS back up if you are concerned about events re a power cut etc.
To say free systems don't notify you in the event of a power cut is not entirely correct.
Lets take a couple of examples of what might happen with say GSD.
Burglar gains entry through front door & unplugs modem or turns off the power . You will get an instant notification UNVERIFIED INTRUSION.
If the power is cut, without any alarm event you will get a notification after 5,10,15 minutes network down.
If you feel the need for GSM/GPRS back Up this is available at around €40 per annum. This will keep the app/notifications running in the event of a power cut. You will also still get network fail notifications in 5/10 or 15 minutes.
No lets compare to the HKC system where you must sign up for monthly/annual subscriptions.
App itself is €7.99
Subscriptions start at €4.99 per month
In the event of a power cut you will still get your notifications like the paid options suggested above.
The down fall is in the event of the network or service being down the notification comes 5 hours later.
You can pay a premium rate of €84 where total comms fail will be 90 minutes instead of 5 hours.
Myself, I would prefer 5 minutes.
Many combine this with central station monitoring where both IP & GSM/GPRS are monitored with comms fail notified in 15 minutes.


Again , different people have different needs & wants when it comes to this.
Get a few company's out to show you different systems with different options.
Go over all the details & options & see what suits. My advice would be start with free & add on what you require re back ups etc. This way you are not tied to subscriptions for the life of your system. However if you go the other way and sign up to a subscription only model you are tied to that for the life of your system.



Read that slowly there now please and tell me is what you said about HKC correct? Is it factual and is there anything positive from what you said about HKC there ?


So it is factual.

KoolKid wrote: »

I am offering different manufacturers to your one that is all.
We are just discussing options you are the one personalizing it all the time.

Oh dear, what a contradiction, oops.
So you are claiming that you install HKC systems while at the same time ' offering different manufacturers to my one"


Ah come on, how silly do you think people are?


Again i am not personalising anything, all i can refer to is your own posts on this forum.


That is where I read posts that you write, again how you take it so personally is an honest surprise to me.

KoolKid

Over and over and over again.
You can quote me and copy paste all you want.
Not everyone wants HKC.
Not everyone wants to pay for apps
Those who do want paid for options still want to look as choices of other systems.
This is a a public forum to discuss different options, different systems and different choices.
People really don't want to listen because you don't agree with someone's else's points of view over and over.

kub

KoolKid wrote:

Over and over and over again. You can quote me and copy paste all you want. Not everyone wants HKC. Not everyone wants to pay for apps Those who do want paid for options still want to look as choices of other systems. This is a a public forum to discuss different options, different systems and different choices. People really don't want to listen because you don't agree with someone's else's points of view over and over.

I know, over and over is right, I find that in order to try and get through to you I have to keep saying the same things over and over again.
Thank you for allowing me to copy and paste your posts, I was doing that anyway and will continue to do so.

Well as I have mentioned over and over on this particular thread, no one mentioned anything about manufacturers until you did in post 3 of this thread.
You kicked off that debate, no one else.

Do you think that I am unaware that people do not want to pay for certain things?

Once again the very mention of HKC and out you come with charges and costs etc, you are offering people a FREE option which cannot transmit an alarm activation after a power cut.

Lost comms is not an alarm activation.

Enough power outages and enough of these lots comms messages and you will have a complacent customer, an assumption that all is grand at home etc, the electricity is only off.
Then they fail to double check, because with FREE they have to, the boy crying wolf attitude etc.
So if that house is broken into during a power cut, your FREE cannot let those people know that their alarm has gone off.

With respect this is indeed a public forum, to discuss different options, but this is only a thread of this forum and the particular person who started it was looking for general advice, which I gave them, but you took it off in a different direction in post 3.

So just so I am clear here now, you said

" People really don't want to listen because I don't agree with someone else's points of view, over and over"

Now is that quote a joke or what? Are you serious?

You come out with that line after stating in the sentence above it that this is a public forum and that people discuss different options.

Do you not see the irony there?
So everyone can discuss things once they agree with you is it?

KoolKid

So is all this really just because you don't want people offering advise on different systems and options or because I don't recommend the one system you do?
Please give users here the credit to read over the different options and make their mind up themselves.

kub

KoolKid wrote:

So is all this really just because you don't want people offering advise on different systems and options or because I don't recommend the one system you do? Please give users here the credit to read over the different options and make their mind up themselves.

No this is about debate and discussion, I thought you were around board's now long enough to know what it is all about?

By all means let you continue to offer your stall and your solutions and I will offer mine.

Amazing now in that post you particularly said that you do not recommend the system that I do.
See I know that,
After you stating in previous posts that you installed HKC systems.
Thank you for proving my point.

Again, this particular thread was rail roaded by you when you arrived in post 3.
As I said the OP was looking for general advise, you did not do that, instead off you went on your usual rant.
That OP never mentioned different manufacturers, it was you did that.

I always give people the option to read over different options but I will continue to debate the options in the true spirit of board's.

KoolKid

There are plenty of other systems I install based on customers wants and needs.Doesn't mean I have to come on here and recommend every one of them.
At every opportunity you recommend HKC with some lovely sound bites. I choose to offer a different perspective and different options.
Most rational people would accept that. But because you don't agree you come on making false claims about who I work for and how I carry out business.
Imagine listening to that off 2 members of staff in Harvey Norman's selling a different brand.?

You asked a question re HKC and I answered it.
You can either accept my answer or call me a liar I really don't care.
In almost every survey I do HKC comes up in discussions, but when people learn all the options they make their choice.
Sometimes they do choose HKC as they are familiar with it and don't want change or they already have the app and want to stick with the one. Sometimes they choose Galaxy. I have a few of these in a domestic setting.
I have some Inner Range systems, Risco, UTC, Visonic and many others installed also. Some choose Risco because they like the app or they like the touch screen keypad. Some choose GSD because they like they keypad over others and nothing to do with the app or anything else.
But the vast majority of people say that they don't want to pay for apps and pay for their usage. The know the risks, they know the downfalls, they know every system has its vulnerabilities. But with all that information they are the consumer and its their choice.
There are differences in products and services in every market and people make their own choices everyday. It doesn't mean one is perfect and everything else is crap or no good.
At the end of the day choice is good for everyone and the market.

kub

Thank you, that post makes a lot more sense now.

If you could please leave that with me, I will give it an appropriate response later on this evening.

kub

KoolKid wrote: »

There are plenty of other systems I install based on customers wants and needs.Doesn't mean I have to come on here and recommend every one of them.

But you do, you always recommend GSD and Siemens/ Vanderbilt.
Are you suggesting here that you do not?
Because if you are, just please let me know and i will trawl through your posts here and link them for you.

KoolKid wrote: »

At every opportunity you recommend HKC with some lovely sound bites. I choose to offer a different perspective and different options.

I do because HKC have the Irish domestic intruder alarm system market fairly well sussed out and have designed their systems accordingly and have done an excellent job of it as well.


Now you say there you "offer a different perspective and different options"
So from that statement you are saying therefore you do not offer HKC, so that leads me onto you installing HKC systems and hence my confusion here.

KoolKid wrote: »

Most rational people would accept that. But because you don't agree you come on making false claims about who I work for and how I carry out business.
Imagine listening to that off 2 members of staff in Harvey Norman's selling a different brand.?

Koolkid with due respect, I know who you work for, so could you please explain what you mean about false claims ?


The only information that I have mentioned throughout this forum is from posts which you wrote.


You should really monitor what you post in that case because if the stuff is false, you wrote it.

KoolKid wrote: »

You asked a question re HKC and I answered it.
You can either accept my answer or call me a liar I really don't care.
In almost every survey I do HKC comes up in discussions, but when people learn all the options they make their choice.
Sometimes they do choose HKC as they are familiar with it and don't want change or they already have the app and want to stick with the one.

Everytime you write a post about HKC you always mention their App and Subscription charges and then you mention the FREE options with GSD and Siemens/ Vanderbilt.
I am not at all calling you a liar, I am just very surprised for someone that demonstrates such a disdain for HKC that you would find yourself to be in such a position as having to install their equipment.
It must be difficult.
Ps i admire your wording in the that last paragraph i posted, you are saying quite clearly that HKC comes up in conversation, I take it that the customer brings it up so.

KoolKid wrote: »

Sometimes they choose Galaxy. I have a few of these in a domestic setting.
I have some Inner Range systems, Risco, UTC, Visonic and many others installed also. Some choose Risco because they like the app or they like the touch screen keypad. Some choose GSD because they like they keypad over others and nothing to do with the app or anything else.
But the vast majority of people say that they don't want to pay for apps and pay for their usage. The know the risks, they know the downfalls, they know every system has its vulnerabilities. But with all that information they are the consumer and its their choice.

I also have all the above mentioned manufacturers systems installed in my customers homes and business premises, well except for GSD.
Does that mean I am not one of those HKC one trick ponies ?



I am surprised that people prefer the GSD keypad over the Siemens Vanderbilt 5300 series one.


Anyway I find that actually people are not really aware of manufacturers and I find when I am discussing their future security system with them that they look at me to recommend a manufacturer.
My recommendation is good enough I find.

But then maybe things are different for me, I do not advertise, i do not need to, that may seem arrogant but my main concern is that the systems i specify and install are fool proof, secure and give my customers piece of mind and no unnecessary false alarms or silly faults.

KoolKid wrote: »

There are differences in products and services in every market and people make their own choices everyday. It doesn't mean one is perfect and everything else is crap or no good.
At the end of the day choice is good for everyone and the market.

Where did this reference to crap or no good come from?


We do security systems, I would not choose to use someones broadband router only to relay an alarm activation to a professional monitoring station.


Now we both do security systems, would you choose to do that?


Speaking of choices that is.


And do you think it is good enough that with your Free notifications that people who have such systems cannot be notified of Intruder/ Panic etc signals from their systems during a power cut?


Is that good enough for your customers?


I mean a comms failure is not an alarm activation and there is a huge difference between the two.

KoolKid

More of the same....
_ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
What difference does it make to you who I recommend and who I don't? That's my choice.
I am entitled to give my own opinions and views on whatever systems or equipment I want. The same way as you are allowed recommend HKC for everything.
That's it, everyone here does not have to explain every action and every post to you.
Again you keep dragging who I work for and my work practices into everyone of your posts.
I have explained what systems we use and I have also explained that all our monitored systems are not vis IP only and therefore not subject to power cuts. Yet you still keep making more false claims about this.
Keep going round in circles it you want. Everyone can see your agenda. Again, I'm out.
Look forward to your last word on this thread as well.

kub

KoolKid wrote: »

More of the same....
_ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

Sorry to see you are so tired at this hour of the morning, pity you find my posts so boring, had you actually addressed the points i brought up and answered my questions then perhaps you would not be so bored.

KoolKid wrote: »

What difference does it make to you who I recommend and who I don't? That's my choice.
I am entitled to give my own opinions and views on whatever systems or equipment I want. The same way as you are allowed recommend HKC for everything.
That's it, everyone here does not have to explain every action and every post to you.
Again you keep dragging who I work for and my work practices into everyone of your posts.

Ah so you are saying now that you recommend, having earlier stated that you give people choices and options and all that, so its a recommendation now?
Then you state that " It is my choice "


But that contradicts straight away what you always say about people having a right to choose what system suits them etc etc etc.


Nice of you to allow me to recommend HKC, but I do not recommend them for everything, as i have already mentioned, they have the Irish domestic market sussed and have solutions to those challenges and they tick all the boxes with regard to domestic intruder systems.


I am not asking anyone here to explain every action and every post to me, but it would be nice in a discussion that the other party might actually answer whatever questions arise.

KoolKid wrote: »

I have explained what systems we use and I have also explained that all our monitored systems are not vis IP only and therefore not subject to power cuts. Yet you still keep making more false claims about this.
Keep going round in circles it you want. Everyone can see your agenda. Again, I'm out.
Look forward to your last word on this thread as well.

You did, however in this particular thread the OP wanted their system monitored.
You came in and you were on about GSD and Free and you made a comparison to HKC and their charges etc.


Now if the OP needs their system monitored professionally and they opt for your GSD Free,, can you please again, ( This is only my 4 th time asking ) explain how the signal from the control panel will get to the monitoring station other than utilising the OP's broadband router ???????


I have already mentioned my professional concerns about this method.


I am unaware of any other method that will not have any cost implication on people such as the OP.


It is the way of a discussion that matters be addressed, you have not really entered into a proper discussion here so that was why it went round and round.


My agenda was to discuss what you mentioned in Post 3 of this thread.


You have failed to do that.


It is a pity once again that you have chosen to depart yet another discussion.

rolion

@kub

I wanna "upgrade" my alarm to Siemens.
Convince me to buy a HKC please.

And the two of you...you need to get a room...

Stoner

OP, all the systems KUB and Koolkid mentioned are good.

If you can pick through the squabbling text there is good advice there.

I've used GSD, HKC and Siemens kit. (as a client) and they all did a good job.

Yes there are some issues around payment for apps and polling times.

Essentially you could argue HKC does not have polling as the times are very long between checks , the horse would have left the stable before you'd be notified.

It's still a very robust system with a huge amount of supplier options, you just need to see if polling is critical for you.

Again if you read the charter this forum has a lot of users from the trade, some have preferences and commercial alignments with certain manufactures.

The main thing to do is to get the coverage right, don't just use pirs, detect attempts to break-in.

When getting your quotes make sure you check like with like and supply the contractors with a requirement list

kub

rolion wrote:

I wanna "upgrade" my alarm to Siemens. Convince me to buy a HKC please.

Siemens have top class equipment and I would certainly recommend them.
Get their 5300 keypad flush fitted, it is the best one out there.
Just avoid the free notification stuff.

skedaddling

Thanks everyone. A lot to think about but get quotes and protecting he exterior seem to be key.

KoolKid

That's a good start allright.
If you need anything else give us a shout back here .