How to alert driver of presence?

comanche_cor

So yesterday on my commute home I had a driver veer into a dedicated cycle lane (solid white line) as I was on their inside. I tapped the rear panel of their car gently with my knuckles as I slowed down and they moved back out of the lane.

As I passed I got a beep of the horn and when stopped at the traffic lights we were approaching the driver got out of the car to confront me and ask me "what the hell I was doing" and to tell me that "there better on be any scratches on his car"

Seems like my actions lit this driver up like a roman candle! https://b-static.net/vbulletin/images/smilies/eek.png

So when I got home I started to thing about this a bit more. Although my actions kept me safe (and prevented the driver from having a bigger scrape and a large insurance claim) perhaps I could have handled the situation better. I don't think my actions did me any favours apart from creating another pissed off driver.

So how could I have handled this situation better, just slammed on the brakes and done nothing? How do others alter drivers of their presence!?

(btw when out of the car the driver had the phone in their hand - so I think we all know what was going on, unfortunately I wasn't quick enough to point that out)

Macy0161

tbh, that's why I got cameras* for the bike. I haven't reported anyone yet, but in my head, if I have an incident like that I'll now be thinking I'll report the untc, or even youtube shame, rather than get involved on the road. I don't think it does much good as red mist is up for everyone, including those in the wrong.

*only seem to have incidents when I go out without them now!

rob w

I usually let a good roar out to alert them of my presence! Works well these days with peoples windows open!!

joe40

I know it is a typo in your thread title, but how to "alter the driver" works as well

comanche_cor

joe40 wrote: »

I know it is a typo in your thread title, but how to "alter the driver" works as well

lol, perhaps that was freudian!

whiskeyman

rob w wrote: »

I usually let a good roar out to alert them of my presence! Works well these days with peoples windows open!!

This is probably the best idea.
Hitting someones car, no matter how lightly, is never a good idea.

If a car encroaches into your lane when driving, a blast of the horn is the usual method of warning.
Perhaps bikes need louder bells?

Fian

http://www.airzound.co.uk/

Mine is currently on a shelf becaue the handlebar fitting it clamps into broke, but it does this job perfectly. Just be wary of frightening pedestrians if you sound it.

Alanstrainor

One of these:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Hornit-dB140-V2-Worlds-Loudest/dp/B006TDEV20/ref=sr_1_2?s=sports&ie=UTF8&qid=1530088682&sr=1-2&keywords=hornit

I was skeptical at first, but it works a charm. Even well insulated cars can hear it. And that's a good price actually.

I bought mine as every other bell I had ever had broke. And I tried this as an alternative. The first one I had failed in about 4 weeks due to poor solder joints. Their support promptly sent me a new one which has worked for 6 motnhs or more now.

JazzyJ

Fian wrote: »

http://www.airzound.co.uk/

Mine is currently on a shelf becaue the handlebar fitting it clamps into broke, but it does this job perfectly. Just be wary of frightening pedestrians if you sound it.

Alanstrainor wrote: »

One of these:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Hornit-dB140-V2-Worlds-Loudest/dp/B006TDEV20/ref=sr_1_2?s=sports&ie=UTF8&qid=1530088682&sr=1-2&keywords=hornit

I was skeptical at first, but it works a charm. Even well insulated cars can hear it. And that's a good price actually.

I bought mine as every other bell I had ever had broke. And I tried this as an alternative. The first one I had failed in about 4 weeks due to poor solder joints. Their support promptly sent me a new one which has worked for 6 motnhs or more now.

Unfortunately, they're illegal!

Alanstrainor

JazzyJ wrote: »

Unfortunately, they're illegal!

I'll take my chances.

JazzyJ

Alanstrainor wrote: »

I'll take my chances.

Well it is a choice between safety and a 0% chance of being pulled up on it :pac:

magicbastarder

whiskeyman wrote: »

Hitting someones car, no matter how lightly, is never a good idea.

i have on (rare) occasion, thumped a car. the sort of situation where etiquette no longer applies and self-preservation kicks in.

07Lapierre

comanche_cor wrote: »

So yesterday on my commute home I had a driver veer into a dedicated cycle lane (solid white line) as I was on their inside. I tapped the rear panel of their car gently with my knuckles as I slowed down and they moved back out of the lane.

As I passed I got a beep of the horn and when stopped at the traffic lights we were approaching the driver got out of the car to confront me and ask me "what the hell I was doing" and to tell me that "there better on be any scratches on his car"

What was your answer to the driver?

seamus

comanche_cor wrote: »

So how could I have handled this situation better, just slammed on the brakes and done nothing? How do others alter drivers of their presence!?

Let out a roar, then give the universal, "WTF are you at, you fncking clown" hand gesture, before a very obvious and condescending head shake, like you're a parent disappointed by their errant child.

The kind of tosser who'd go on the offensive after pulling across you, is never going to listen to reason. So there's no point in being reasonable. Put your own safety first, forget about trying to change the behaviour of others.

tomasrojo

If they're drifting into your lane, you can either slow down and see what they do (which I generally favour), ring a bell (should you have one), or let out some variety of vocal noise, enough to be heard, but not so loud as to sound aggressive.

If it's an emergency, shout loudly and brake hard. If you're trapped beside them and they're pulling in on top of you, shout, hit the car, do whatever it takes to wake the dozy fool up. But, really, touching cars in any way is a last resort for me, as I've had drivers get homicidally angry twice.

ted1

JazzyJ wrote: »

Fian wrote: »

http://www.airzound.co.uk/

Mine is currently on a shelf becaue the handlebar fitting it clamps into broke, but it does this job perfectly. Just be wary of frightening pedestrians if you sound it.

Alanstrainor wrote: »

One of these:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Hornit-dB140-V2-Worlds-Loudest/dp/B006TDEV20/ref=sr_1_2?s=sports&ie=UTF8&qid=1530088682&sr=1-2&keywords=hornit

I was skeptical at first, but it works a charm. Even well insulated cars can hear it. And that's a good price actually.

I bought mine as every other bell I had ever had broke. And I tried this as an alternative. The first one I had failed in about 4 weeks due to poor solder joints. Their support promptly sent me a new one which has worked for 6 motnhs or more now.

Unfortunately, they're illegal!

Under what SI? Sounds odd , same as a car horn

ted1

magicbastarder wrote: »

whiskeyman wrote: »

Hitting someones car, no matter how lightly, is never a good idea.

i have on (rare) occasion, thumped a car. the sort of situation where etiquette no longer applies and self-preservation kicks in.

I’ve toe bogged a door while cycling in a bike lane on the N11. That’s how close they got.

cython

ted1 wrote: »

Under what SI? Sounds odd , same as a car horn

See below

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1963/si/190/made/en/print wrote:

93. (1) Every pedal cycle (other than a cycle constructed or adapted for use as a racing cycle) while used in a public place shall be fitted with an audible warning device consisting of a bell capable of being heard at a reasonable distance, and no other type of audible warning instrument shall be fitted to a pedal cycle while used in a public place.

comanche_cor

07Lapierre wrote: »

What was your answer to the driver?

I pointed out that they were squeezing me to the curb. I asked them would they have done the same thing if it was a car on the inside and not a bicycle.

I believe that they were unaware that there was in fact a cycle lane there.

TBH I didn't actually want to engage. All I wanted to do was get home relax enjoy a beer and BBQ

average_runner

comanche_cor wrote: »

So yesterday on my commute home I had a driver veer into a dedicated cycle lane (solid white line) as I was on their inside. I tapped the rear panel of their car gently with my knuckles as I slowed down and they moved back out of the lane.

As I passed I got a beep of the horn and when stopped at the traffic lights we were approaching the driver got out of the car to confront me and ask me "what the hell I was doing" and to tell me that "there better on be any scratches on his car"

Seems like my actions lit this driver up like a roman candle! https://b-static.net/vbulletin/images/smilies/eek.png

So when I got home I started to thing about this a bit more. Although my actions kept me safe (and prevented the driver from having a bigger scrape and a large insurance claim) perhaps I could have handled the situation better. I don't think my actions did me any favours apart from creating another pissed off driver.

So how could I have handled this situation better, just slammed on the brakes and done nothing? How do others alter drivers of their presence!?

(btw when out of the car the driver had the phone in their hand - so I think we all know what was going on, unfortunately I wasn't quick enough to point that out)

I think you handled the situation ok, if I was the driver I would of just put my hand up as a sorry.

It really pisses me off when people behave rudely when they know they are in the wrong, it tells you alot about that person.

Greybottle

Fian wrote: »

http://www.airzound.co.uk/

Mine is currently on a shelf becaue the handlebar fitting it clamps into broke, but it does this job perfectly. Just be wary of frightening pedestrians if you sound it.

Alanstrainor wrote: »

One of these:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Hornit-dB140-V2-Worlds-Loudest/dp/B006TDEV20/ref=sr_1_2?s=sports&ie=UTF8&qid=1530088682&sr=1-2&keywords=hornit

I was skeptical at first, but it works a charm. Even well insulated cars can hear it. And that's a good price actually.

I bought mine as every other bell I had ever had broke. And I tried this as an alternative. The first one I had failed in about 4 weeks due to poor solder joints. Their support promptly sent me a new one which has worked for 6 motnhs or more now.

Anybody who uses this is at the level of a holigan or thug IMO. I'm saying this as a committed cyclist.

120db and up can cause injury, 130db+ causes damage.

Why the utter fcuk some cyclists seem to believe they are above the law and use these things I don't know. Using those things causes animosity in a wider circle of people, be it road users, pedestrians or residents of an area and just enforces the "Cyclists are tossers" mentality that a lot of us are trying to combat.

Car horns are limited to 110db in the EU, though some older models are at 115db. Try to respect the rules of the road instead of going out antagonising people.

OP: Correct procedure is to try to avoid the accident, so hitting the brakes is a first step, even though you are in the right.
Second step would be to tap on their window and ask them to take more care. I admit this is difficult when the adrenaline is up, but it's the only correct procedure (and I've been guilty of not adhering to it myself on more than one occasion).

AndrewJRenko

If they are close enough for you to tap their car, they are way too close.

Tenzor07

Amazing how Invisible someone on a bicycle can be to a driver, even in the best of Hi-Vis, yet everyone on a bicycle who may proceed past a red light is visible to every single motorist out there!! :eek:

Alanstrainor

Greybottle wrote: »

Anybody who uses this is at the level of a holigan or thug IMO. I'm saying this as a committed cyclist.

120db and up can cause injury, 130db+ causes damage.

Why the utter fcuk some cyclists seem to believe they are above the law and use these things I don't know. Using those things causes animosity in a wider circle of people, be it road users, pedestrians or residents of an area and just enforces the "Cyclists are tossers" mentality that a lot of us are trying to combat.

Car horns are limited to 110db in the EU, though some older models are at 115db. Try to respect the rules of the road instead of going out antagonising people.

OP: Correct procedure is to try to avoid the accident, so hitting the brakes is a first step, even though you are in the right.
Second step would be to tap on their window and ask them to take more care. I admit this is difficult when the adrenaline is up, but it's the only correct procedure (and I've been guilty of not adhering to it myself on more than one occasion).

I am not trying to take some sort of holier than thou approach to cycling. It is a response to a very real danger I've faced in many thousands of km cycling in Dublin, both urban and otherwise. It's a horn, it alerts to my presence when activated, and it works well. It won't harm anyone. It is loud to alert people in cars who otherwise won't hear a bell or a shout.

07Lapierre

comanche_cor wrote: »

I pointed out that they were squeezing me to the curb. I asked them would they have done the same thing if it was a car on the inside and not a bicycle.

I believe that they were unaware that there was in fact a cycle lane there.

TBH I didn't actually want to engage. All I wanted to do was get home relax enjoy a beer and BBQ

Just as well you thumped the side of their car so!

I had a similar experience a few years ago. when the driver asked me why i thumped the side of his car i said "Just wanted to make sure you weren't deaf as well as blind!"

Taxuser1

rob w wrote: »

I usually let a good roar out to alert them of my presence! Works well these days with peoples windows open!!

i've seen a lot of drivers with headphones in now - a roar often isn't enough so I use a knuckle duster once I approach town.

tomasrojo

I use small erector muscles attached to my hair follicles to extend my hair out so I look twice my size and I emit a loud hiss.

average_runner

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Amazing how Invisible someone on a bicycle can be to a driver, even in the best of Hi-Vis, yet everyone on a bicycle who may proceed past a red light is visible to every single motorist out there!! :eek:

That's because there is a blind spot on cars and other motor vehicles and cyclists usually go through red lights right in front of everyone.

average_runner

Taxuser1 wrote: »

i've seen a lot of drivers with headphones in now - a roar often isn't enough so I use a knuckle duster once I approach town.

Apparently the headphones is not against the law, i don't understand why not.

C3PO

average_runner wrote: »

That's because there is a blind spot on cars and other motor vehicles and cyclists usually go through red lights right in front of everyone.

Oh ... here we go again!

07Lapierre

average_runner wrote: »

Apparently the headphones is not against the law, i don't understand why not.

Because if hearing was important then car stereos, windows, soundproofing etc. would all be banned!

tomasrojo

It is amazing how quiet it is inside a car compared to outside on a busy street.

average_runner

C3PO wrote: »

Oh ... here we go again!

Nothing I said was wrong, its the same for a car, when they break a light we all see it as it happens in front of you

average_runner

07Lapierre wrote: »

Because if hearing was important then car stereos, windows, soundproofing etc. would all be banned!

Yet hearing is usually the first warning signal of danger

ted1

average_runner wrote: »

Taxuser1 wrote: »

i've seen a lot of drivers with headphones in now - a roar often isn't enough so I use a knuckle duster once I approach town.

Apparently the headphones is not against the law, i don't understand why not.

I’d argue that it’s illegal to have a phone on your body while driving , and that headphones are connected to the phone and thus constitute to be part of the phone and are therefore illegal

average_runner

ted1 wrote: »

I’d argue that it’s illegal to have a phone on your body while driving , and that headphones are connected to the phone and thus constitute to be part of the phone and are therefore illegal

I would say you lose that one. Its illegal to have the phone in your hand and be using it when driving, but there is nothing to say you can't have headphones connected or bluetooth to a phone and listen to music, once you don't touch the phone to do an action on it.

Silly I know

07Lapierre

average_runner wrote: »

Yet hearing is usually the first warning signal of danger

Really? Explain. Explain how/what you hear can warn you of an immediate danger? A gunshot maybe, but when driving?

Effects

whiskeyman wrote: »

Hitting someones car, no matter how lightly, is never a good idea.

It's saved me from severe damage a couple of times. Sometimes there's no other way of alerting a driver who doesn't know what they are doing.

Markcheese

I was gonna suggest an air horn.. And read above that they're illegal...to be honest a bell is gonna be ****e useless for anyone but a pedestrian, and even then...
But... An air horn ain't gonna do múch in a emergency either... I never have to time to use the horn in the van in anything other than a friendly warning.. Or an angry after the fact F-you (which while satisfying ain't gonna change much)

average_runner

07Lapierre wrote: »

Really? Explain. Explain how/what you hear can warn you of an immediate danger? A gunshot maybe, but when driving?

You can hear another car horn or heavy braking. Also someone in the car shouting at you. If you have your window down you will hear a scream easily.
Often heard cyclists shouting at the bus when I was on it and no window open!!

tomasrojo

Markcheese wrote: »

I was gonna suggest an air horn.. And read above that they're illegal...to be honest a bell is gonna be ****e useless for anyone but a pedestrian, and even then...

Yeah, bells aren't really going to make much difference in a life-or-death quick-reaction scenario. But when you feel that a pedestrian is going to step out in the next few seconds, or that the car with the open window is about to change trajectory, they can make a difference. Or going around blind corners on shared-space facilities, or coming out of alleyways. Bit less embarrassing than shouting "look out!" or whatever all the time.

tomasrojo

Incidentally, headphones megathread is available for people who really have to revisit the subject.

ted1

average_runner wrote: »

ted1 wrote: »

I’d argue that it’s illegal to have a phone on your body while driving , and that headphones are connected to the phone and thus constitute to be part of the phone and are therefore illegal

I would say you lose that one. Its illegal to have the phone in your hand and be using it when driving, but there is nothing to say you can't have headphones connected or bluetooth to a phone and listen to music, once you don't touch the phone to do an action on it.

Silly I know

you don’t have to be using it for it to be illegal. Just holding it by hand or “supporting or cradling it with another part of the body “

07Lapierre

average_runner wrote: »

You can hear another car horn or heavy braking. Also someone in the car shouting at you. If you have your window down you will hear a scream easily.
Often heard cyclists shouting at the bus when I was on it and no window open!!

If you hear a scream and there is nobody lying on the bonnet of your car it's probably too late!

Borderfox

Depends on the situation, usually a shout but on occasion I have knocked on the window. The knocking on the window was for a very close pass into a bike lane in Castleknock where I had to go so close to the kerb I was hitting the left pedal off the kerb.

Alanstrainor

I have hit on the side of cars before which have come in on top of me for some reason or another, but I now have to question the sense in it. If they are close enough for you to hit the car with any force then you should probably be on the brakes and trying to get out of dodge. Even hitting the car is enough to shake you off your course to some degree.

That being said, in the situations where it has happened, it's usually a reaction out of instinct and shock more than anything. Which is hard to control. I still vote hornit or similar as the safest alert mechanism. You keep your hands on the bars and can even brake while using it.

Wishbone Ash

Greybottle wrote: »

Anybody who uses this is at the level of a holigan or thug IMO. I'm saying this as a committed cyclist.

120db and up can cause injury, 130db+ causes damage.....

Has the rich irony in your post gone over your own head?

tomasrojo wrote: »

....If you're trapped beside them and they're pulling in on top of you, shout, hit the car, do whatever it takes to wake the dozy fool up. But, really, touching cars in any way is a last resort for me, as I've had drivers get homicidally angry twice.

On a few occasions where I've been suddenly squeezed in, I've used my bike to make contact with the other vehicle. It's much more effective because the encroaching driver has in effect collided with a cyclist in the cycle track. It tends to soften their cough when that is pointed out to them.

Effects

ted1 wrote: »

you don’t have to be using it for it to be illegal. Just holding it by hand or “supporting or cradling it with another part of the body “

Are you sure? Because I see people holding the phone in front of their face but using the speaker phone function all the time, rather than holding it up to their ear. Surely this must be legal? Like you have to be on a call and the phone be closer than 60mm to your ear for it to be illegal.

Wishbone Ash

Effects wrote: »

Are you sure? Because I see people holding the phone in front of their face but using the speaker phone function all the time, rather than holding it up to their ear. Surely this must be legal?....

Totally illegal. You don't even have to be on a call for it to be illegal.

ted1

Effects wrote: »

Are you sure? Because I see people holding the phone in front of their face but using the speaker phone function all the time, rather than holding it up to their ear. Surely this must be legal? Like you have to be on a call and the phone be closer than 60mm to your ear for it to be illegal.

I'm certain:

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2006/act/23/section/3/enacted/en/html#sec3

section 3.
"3.— (1) A person shall not while driving a mechanically propelled vehicle in a public place hold a mobile phone."
....
“ hold ”, in relation to a mobile phone, means holding the phone by hand or supporting or cradling it with another part of the body;

Fian

JazzyJ wrote: »

Unfortunately, they're illegal!

dead letter law though. It is equally illegal, under the same statutory provision, not to have a bell on your bike. Most bikes don't.

In fact with the airzound or hornet you could make a decent argument that you were entitled ot the defence of necessity on teh basis that a bell does not adequately warnt drivers in modern sound insulated cars. Of course that is basically irrelevant since nobody is realisticly going to be prosecuted for having a warning device other than a bell on the bike. The law is of some antiquity.