UK revives LNER

https://www.lner.co.uk/


https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-44590366

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-44590366
Rail services on the East Coast Main Line are back under government control, following the failure of the franchise.
Stagecoach and Virgin Trains, which had a 90% and 10% stake in the venture respectively, handed over control on Sunday after running it since 2015.
The Department for Transport will run the service until a new public-private partnership can be appointed in 2020.
The London to Edinburgh line connects London King's Cross to stations in the north and Scotland.
The route - which services stations including York, Leeds, Newcastle, Aberdeen and Inverness - will now be known as the London North Eastern Railway (LNER), a name last used in the 1940s.
The first LNER train left Newcastle at 07:54 BST on Sunday and is due to arrive at London King's Cross at 10:52.

Looks like private enterprises can't run a railway profitably, so the state had to take it over to avoid complete failure.


Lessons there for advocates for the of privatisation of Irish railways.

goingnowhere

The story here is not so

The East Coast line is profitable, significantly so. So the private operator commits to paying a premium to the UK government, the amounts per year are agreed in the contract.

In this case East Coast (and GNER before it) simply could not pay up to meet the committments as fare box revenue growth did not meet predictions and hence its game over. We certainly won't have this problem in Ireland.

The new style contracts used in London, e.g London Overground are concessions as distinct from franchises so the revenue risk lies with the state not the operator

end of the road

that's 2 operators now who have effectively over-bid for this line, promised something that couldn't be delivered and have had to walk away. i would have to agree with the op, it's probably best to leave it nationalised now and focus on sorting the problems and building a better railway.

end of the road

end of the road wrote: »

that's 2 operators now who have effectively over-bid for this line, promised something that couldn't be delivered and have had to walk away. i would have to agree with the op, it's probably best to leave it nationalised now and focus on sorting the problems and building a better railway.

This is basically the point I'm making, the operators couldn't make a profit out of running the service.

goingnowhere

Deleted User wrote: »

This is basically the point I'm making, the operators couldn't make a profit out of running the service.

It was profitable, significantly so we are talking annual profits in the tens of millions

It just wasn't profitable enough to meet the contract payments

Jamie2k9

Looks like private enterprises can't run a railway profitably, so the state had to take it over to avoid complete failure.

State removed it to ensure they can continue to take in as much money as possible from the railways when fares are rising fast and pretend to care about customers.

They could have technically left it to Virgin but instead have wasted millions setting up LNER, third time of public ownership and yet the Dep of Transport have yet to be realistic on income levels possible from the contract.

whisky_galore

All they need now in a new LMS.

devnull

You also need to take into account the fact that a lot of franchises were bid on certain assurances from Network Rail in relation to infrastructure as well as the fact that DFT have changed their mind on a fair few things as well which is impacting a number of TOCs at the moment.

The DFT are a major problem in the UK, but they have the luxury of never getting the blame for a lot of the problems in the industry since the average member of Joe Public only sees the TOC.

tabbey

Deleted User wrote: »

This is basically the point I'm making, the operators couldn't make a profit out of running the service.

The operators did make a profit out of running the service.

Unfortunately the premium they paid to the government exceeded that profit.

The system of franchising in the UK mainland, is that operators tender for the franchise; if it is a profitable franchise, the company offers a premium to the government, but if it is a loss making service, the company tenders for a subvention from the government.

In the case of GNER ten years ago, Jim Sherwood of Sea Containers, thought that if the rail company did not pay, the shipping company could subsidise it for a while. Unfortunately the economic downturn meant Sea Containers was also in trouble. It was sad because Sherwood was committed to a high quality rail service, and in my view GNER was the best of the newly privatised companies.
Any other operator would have cut quality to stay in business, but Sherwood had a personal commitment to maintaining standards, and thus went under.

Since then the East Coast maine line (ECML) has been run by Directly Operated Railway (DOR) a nationalised company, and more recently the Virgin / Stagecoach consortium, which probably saw it as a purely commercial decision to withdraw, and hand it back to the government.

This time Mr Grayling, Transport Secretary, decided to revert to the romantic title of the 1923 grouping LNER, certainly more iconic than DOR. We often forget that these companies only lasted 25 years, 1923 - 1947, and for five years of that, the war years,were controlled by the government.

The so-called privatisation of rail in UK is a total farce, there is more micro-management of services by government today, than there was when the railway was run by BR.

I was in and around Leeds this weekend. On Saturday evening I was reminded that the trains I saw branded Virgin, were on their last hours. On Sunday morning, the first LNER service I saw, was ironically an East Midlands Trains HST, running over non-electrified lines, due to engineering work during the night.
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Apart from posters advertising LNER offers, the only "rolling stock" with LNER branding, were the station luggage trolleys!

Qrt

tabbey wrote: »

The operators did make a profit out of running the service.

Unfortunately the premium they paid to the government exceeded that profit.

The system of franchising in the UK mainland, is that operators tender for the franchise; if it is a profitable franchise, the company offers a premium to the government, but if it is a loss making service, the company tenders for a subvention from the government.

In the case of GNER ten years ago, Jim Sherwood of Sea Containers, thought that if the rail company did not pay, the shipping company could subsidise it for a while. Unfortunately the economic downturn meant Sea Containers was also in trouble. It was sad because Sherwood was committed to a high quality rail service, and in my view GNER was the best of the newly privatised companies.
Any other operator would have cut quality to stay in business, but Sherwood had a personal commitment to maintaining standards, and thus went under.

Since then the East Coast maine line (ECML) has been run by Directly Operated Railway (DOR) a nationalised company, and more recently the Virgin / Stagecoach consortium, which probably saw it as a purely commercial decision to withdraw, and hand it back to the government.

This time Mr Grayling, Transport Secretary, decided to revert to the romantic title of the 1923 grouping LNER, certainly more iconic than DOR. We often forget that these companies only lasted 25 years, 1923 - 1947, and for five years of that, the war years,were controlled by the government.

The so-called privatisation of rail in UK is a total farce, there is more micro-management of services by government today, than there was when the railway was run by BR.

I was in and around Leeds this weekend. On Saturday evening I was reminded that the trains I saw branded Virgin, were on their last hours. On Sunday morning, the first LNER service I saw, was ironically an East Midlands Trains HST, running over non-electrified lines, due to engineering work during the night.
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Apart from posters advertising LNER offers, the only "rolling stock" with LNER branding, were the station luggage trolleys!

It took a fair hike for the South West Trains branding to be changed to South Western Railway and that was a managed handover. It will be a long while before they all have LNER emblazoned across the side.

Jamie2k9

On Sunday morning, the first LNER service I saw, was ironically an East Midlands Trains HST, running over non-electrified lines, due to engineering work during the night.
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Are you sure it was a LNER service, East Midlands run a service from Leeds to St Pancras daily which few people know about.

prinzeugen

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Are you sure it was a LNER service, East Midlands run a service from Leeds to St Pancras daily which few people know about.

There is a EMT set on daily hire to VTEC/LNER. Has made it to Inverness more than once!

tabbey

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Are you sure it was a LNER service, East Midlands run a service from Leeds to St Pancras daily which few people know about.

EMT run their own services to St Pancras, but the one I mentioned was at a platform with a destination announced as King's Cross, and it departed at the exact scheduled time. Subsequent East Coast services were run as usual by class 91 electric locos and Mk IV push-pull sets in Virgin livery.

It was my understanding that the EMT HST operating the East Coast service was due to a need for diesel substitution.

Of Course East Coast (Virgin/LNER) have their own HSTs, for services to/from Inverness and Aberdeen, but perhaps not enough, or just not one available at the right time and place, hence hired in the set from EMT.

It is daft, but it helps to make our hobby interesting.

tabbey

Qrt wrote: »

It took a fair hike for the South West Trains branding to be changed to South Western Railway and that was a managed handover. It will be a long while before they all have LNER emblazoned across the side.

Absolutely, we cannot expect a complete fleet repainted overnight. Indeed it would be a waste of money, unless the vehicles were in need of paint.

Vinyl stickers will probably cover the brand name in the interim.

Jamie2k9

tabbey wrote: »

Absolutely, we cannot expect a complete fleet repainted overnight. Indeed it would be a waste of money, unless the vehicles were in need of paint.

Vinyl stickers will probably cover the brand name in the interim.

East Cost to Virgin East Cost

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLoFb6WdzOw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifEuT6_aHJM

Irish Rail would probally save a lot on graffiti removal alone.

prinzeugen

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

East Cost to Virgin East Cost

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLoFb6WdzOw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifEuT6_aHJM

Irish Rail would probally save a lot on graffiti removal alone.

The vinyls cost about £2000 per vehicle. Thats about £20,000 to relivery each East Coast set. And each loco/coach etc is measured and a unique set made for it so its not something that can be held in storage.

Vinyl causes problems on steel stock as they trap water and hide the rust. Its why FGW stopped using them and went for plain purple (before the green came along).

Lord Glentoran

whisky_galore wrote: »

All they need now in a new LMS.

Yes please.

tabbey

whisky_galore wrote: »

All they need now in a new LMS.

Until recently the TOC running regional services between London Euston - Birmingham - Liverpool was trading under the name "London Midland".

Now it has gone back a generation to the pre -grouping era; "London Northwestern".