Jury service

Kittykat944

Hi

Have any of you been inpaneled on a jury recently?

A friend was selected for jury service but is not required for certain days amidst the trial, do they need to attend work on these days?

Also does the certificate of attendance at the end state each day of attendance in court or does it state a start and end date?

TIA

nuac

You will get this information from the County Registrar's office that sent you the jury summons.

It is an important civic duty, giving the ordinary citizen participation in a trial. Enjoy

Buckfast W

Kittykat944 wrote:

Have any of you been inpaneled on a jury recently?

Kittykat944 wrote:

A friend was selected for jury service but is not required for certain days amidst the trial, do they need to attend work on these days?

Kittykat944 wrote:

Also does the certificate of attendance at the end state each day of attendance in court or does it state a start and end date?

Kittykat944 wrote:

TIA

Kittykat944 wrote:

Hi

Hey ,

I did jury service a few years ago, legally your employer has to pay you but that's only for when the court is sitting, if there's any break in the trial then you have to go back to work.

Usually at the start of a trial they indicate how long it's likely to take but they can go over, the trial I was on was only supposed to take 2 weeks but it ended up being about 8 due to legal arguments and other stuff. Hope this helps

JustAThought

I did jury duty about 2 years ago and the paperwork they gave me at the end (posted to my home address) only showed the days I was in. I think it showed either half days or hours. I was a bit worried but as it was a very 1950s form on green or blue paper & it would have been a doddle to do a job on with some creative scanning. Luckily my boss took me at my word as to where I was -and paid me.

joeguevara

I am not allowed to go on a jury as I am/was a barrister. One of the things I’d love to do for a proper trial. I am fascinated to wonder what happens and the group dynamics inside during discussions. I also would love to play devils advocate with the more vocal jurors. In all the cases I was involved in, I had a 100% rate of knowing what the decision would be. Only variances were was how long it would take them to get there.

There was a reality show on (I think channel 4) where there was behind the scenes cameras in a mock trial. It was disheartening to see how people could be bullied into making a decision which will affect people’s lives. One thing that is shocking is that employers have to pay for employees doing jury service. Which means a lot of people try and get out of it.

Always loved the quote that the accuseds life is being decided by morons who weren’t even intelligent enough to get out of jury service!

JustAThought

It was FRIGHTENING to be locked into a room with people who were deciding the future of a persons life and livliehood who had as little interest as wanting to all decide and make a quick decision so they could go home and catch the X match - or to listen to somone struggling with the simplest facts who you actually suspected might be borderline special needs as they were so dull and slow. NOBODY wrote anything down, the longest discussions were how soon could they ask for another cigarette break or what did we think would be for lunch tomorrow or could we ask to be let out early for stag night/pick up at creche/nixer evenjng job/pub/match. One guy did the racing bets while we were discussing -with the Sun/Mai under his oxter and his iphone on his lap while we discussed this mans life - another relentlessly made and offered tea/coffèe and nitpicked over what biscuit he would choose as he lingered at the counter behind us.

Despite the millions spent on the building ( high court/ phoenix park) and all the architecture, carpets and boardroom chairs, there were no whiteboards, A4 paper or powerpoints to allow as aids for conversation or discussion. What business has managers use bics and A5 spiral pads to strategise or brainstorm or summarise complex or contradictory information?

One of the most revolting things was that the windows could not be opened and the small table length 'boardroom' for the jury had a door leading directly into one unisex cubicle. The whole time we sat, drowned in the vile noises and fumes of human excrement and p***ing noises from our fellow jurors and then had to hold our breaths as the stench swept straight into the immediate room where we are held like cattle in a pen . One had to wonder who the prisoners were and what we had done to deserbe such a fate . I actually felt sorry for the prisoners (accused) - between the feeling of revulsion, trapment and imprisonment - hardly the emotions one would want in a jury. Even if he was a guilty as hell and deserved everything he had coming.

My biggest take away as a jurer ( and I was the foreman) was fear that I would ever find myself before a jury -because the 18th system they use is uttely dysfunctional and disturbingly unreliable. People are easily influenced and lead and have no appetite for fine detail or scrutiny -when it crosses with their own needs - to commute/fly out on pre-booked weekend/ pick up children/go to BBQ. As regards the 10 days of thought and discussion think Borat half asleep while smoking pot and just wanting to go home while channelsurfing late night tv on different european stations and having a vague but earnest chat about something he would probably like to know if he could only remember what the initial question was or get past his emotions and excitement at being there or having a lot of things to think about and consider together. And that is assuming he speaks english to native standard and is not off with his friend the security man smoking pot in the jacks downstairs on the way back up(true). An absolutely frightening black hole and Blackadderesque mess .

joeguevara

JustAThought wrote: »

It was FRIGHTENING to be locked into a room with people who were deciding the future of a persons life and livliehood who had as little interest as wanting to all decide and make a quick decision so they could go home and catch the X match - or to listen to somone struggling with the simplest facts who you actually suspected might be borderline special needs as they were so dull and slow. NOBODY wrote anything down, the longest discussions were how soon could they ask for another cigarette break or what did we think would be for lunch tomorrow or could we ask to be let out early for stag night/pick up at creche/nixer evenjng job/pub/match. One guy did the racing bets while we were discussing -with the Sun/Mai under his oxter and his iphone on his lap while we discussed this mans life - another relentlessly made and offered tea/coffèe and nitpicked over what biscuit he would choose as he lingered at the counter behind us.

Despite the millions spent on the building ( high court/ phoenix park) and all the architecture, carpets and boardroom chairs, there were no whiteboards, A4 paper or powerpoints to allow as aids for conversation or discussion. What business has managers use bics and A5 spiral pads to strategise or brainstorm or summarise complex or contradictory information?

One of the most revolting things was that the windows could not be opened and the small table length 'boardroom' for the jury had a door leading directly into one unisex cubicle. The whole time we sat, drowned in the vile noises and fumes of human excrement and p***ing noises from our fellow jurors and then had to hold our breaths as the stench swept straight into the immediate room where we are held like cattle in a pen . One had to wonder who the prisoners were and what we had done to deserbe such a fate . I actually felt sorry for the prisoners (accused) - between the feeling of revulsion, trapment and imprisonment - hardly the emotions one would want in a jury. Even if he was a guilty as hell and deserved everything he had coming.

My biggest take away as a jurer ( and I was the foreman) was fear that I would ever find myself before a jury -because the 18th system they use is uttely dysfunctional and disturbingly unreliable. People are easily influenced and lead and have no appetite for fine detail or scrutiny -when it crosses eith their own needs - to commute/fly out on pre-booked weekend/ pick up children/go to BNQ. As regards tje 10 days of thought and discussion think Borat half asleep while smoking pot and just wanting to go home while channelsurfing late night tv on different european stations and having a vague but earnest chat about something he would probably like to know if he could only remember what the initial question was or get past his emotions and excitement at being there or having a lot of things to think about and consider together. And that is asduming he speaks english to native standard and is not ofc with his friend the security man smoking pot in the jacks downstairs on the way back up. An absolute mess .

Very interesting post and fascinating insight from someone who actually experienced it. I understand exactly what you are saying but do you think there is a better way? I have been involved in many cases and not once in a jury trial did I think they got it wrong. Of course they did i the UK and every barristers closing argument will mention Birmingham 6 and guildford 4 but I have never come across a trial in Ireland where the jury locked up an innocent person.

But I have seen them let guilty people walk. But they always get their just desserts later.

JustAThought

I dont know any organisation that would hire somebody in for a job that never had any experience or screening for competency or process in the job they wanted them to do. At least every jurer should have to sit at least 3 days instruction in frameworks of approaching and discussing problems and evidence. This wpuld at least empower the less dominant jurers and give an even keel to the quality or process of discussion and evaluation.

The system says a jury of peers but shouldnt these peers be screened for drug use/impairment by use of drugs ; shouldn't their addresses and past addresses and schools /work attended be checked to at least pretend they don't know or didn't grow up in the same class/estate/job as the accused.
Shouldn't people be put back into hotels again so the inevitable want to knock off early for other commitment ( and media influence) be removed.
There should be proper state payment for the disruption as well as employer payment - you are not incentivised if you are a housewife/not working/self employed etc -it just becomes a drag to get out of. A tax free payment of e350 per day on top of employers wage -everyone else gets paid -why should you be forced to listen to incest or rapes or look at pictutes of corpses or messy crimescenes for the same money as if you were working in retail or in a sweetshop or behind a bar?That kind of evil stays with you forever and damages you.
Too much time was wasted on half days and hopes of not having to go back to work and liaision with displeased bosses wanting people to return for the last 2 hours or to do their night shift -if yiu are gone you are gone. 100% focus on the case - no conflicting needs or pressures. You dont expect a surgeon to knock off a job early and then answer phones for debt collection or do financial accounting for a year end deadline and then go back to the same spot in the operating ranle and continue with the same focus.
Jury intimidation. Security and car parking. Safety coming and going. The nonsense of having all this internal marching alongside blazered officials to and fro in crocadile rows not able to speak to others or part from the 12 and then having them discarded through security into the street where the same scobies that kicked open the doors of the court and eyeballed them as jurers then wait drinking their dutch gold on the benches outside the courthouse and follow them to their cars in the park in the dark and follow them home to intimidate or bribe them. You think it dosn't happen -daily?

Capacity to think,follow basic processes, read, understand at native level the english language, at least . Thats before you get me on the subject of people on forensic financial auditing type trials with zero experience or knowledge of yje field - it us supposed to be peers - not just available humans.

I dont agree with a lot that goes on in the US and it is impissible to be impartial but there are advantages to having some knowledge of the jurers so one can object with a degree of knowledge rather than guessing based on their appearance,attitude, clothes & the quality of their ipad.

I could go on all day. As no doubt you could. But as Ireland continues to pour immigrants and migrants in from different cultures and languages and beliefs /faiths the issue of finding peers and what is culturally acknowledged and accepted versus the law of this land is going to get more and more difficult to control and mitigate for and we can expect more and more problems as this is ignored.

Underpinning all of this are the basic human values of sympathy, empathy and self interest which are difficult to mitigate for. Not to mention the absolute lack of consequences and sentencing for those convicted. Dublin is too small and people far too findable jurers not to have this in the back of their minds - and the element of savagery and violence is too great for any person not to consider it . We wonder why there are no witnesses to that murder in Louth or to the antics of Kinihan gang? The out on bail and suspended sentences have a lot to answer for. As a total stranger by my car reg I can be found with almost zero effort or speciality resources - name, address. Our technologies and resources have evolved since the 18th or 18th century - no wonder the reliability of our system hasn't when the weakest link is the human and their fears or needs.

From my job I kniw that people get away with myrder and manslaughter in this city it is just a case of who they know and what kind of accrss, resources and power they have.

joeguevara

JustAThought wrote: »

I dont know any organisation that would hire somebody in for a job that never had any experience or screening for competency or process in the job they wanted them to do. At least every jurer should have to sit at least 3 days instruction in frameworks of approaching and discussing problems and evidence. This wpuld at least empower the less dominant jurers and give an even keel to the quality or process of discussion and evaluation.

The system says a jury of peers but shouldnt these peers be screened for drug use/impairment by use of drugs ; shouldn't their addresses and past addresses and schools /work attended be checked to at least pretend they don't know or didn't grow up in the same class/estate/job as the accused.
Shouldn't people be put back into hotels again so the inevitable want to knock off early for other commitment ( and media influence) be removed.
There should be proper state payment for the disruption as well as employer payment - you are not incentivised if you are a housewife/not working/self employed etc -it just becomes a drag to get out of. A tax free payment of e350 per day on top of employers wage -everyone else gets paid -why should you be forced to listen to incest or rapes or look at pictutes of corpses or messy crimescenes for the same money as if you were working in retail or in a sweetshop or behind a bar?That kind of evil stays with you forever and damages you.
Too much time was wasted on half days and hopes of not having to go back to work and liaision with displeased bosses wanting people to return for the last 2 hours or to do their night shift -if yiu are gone you are gone. 100% focus on the case - no conflicting needs or pressures. You dont expect a surgeon to knock off a job early and then answer phones for debt collection or do financial accounting for a year end deadline and then go back to the same spot in the operating ranle and continue with the same focus.
Jury intimidation. Security and car parking. Safety coming and going. The nonsense of having all this internal marching alongside blazered officials to and fro in crocadile rows not able to speak to others or part from the 12 and then having them discarded through security into the street where the same scobies that kicked open the doors of the court and eyeballed them as jurers then wait drinking their dutch gold on the benches outside the courthouse and follow them to their cars in the park in the dark and follow them home to intimidate or bribe them. You think it dosn't happen -daily?

Capacity to think,follow basic processes, read, understand at native level the english language, at least . Thats before you get me on the subject of people on forensic financial auditing type trials with zero experience or knowledge of yje field - it us supposed to be peers - not just available humans.

I dont agree with a lot that goes on in the US and it is impissible to be impartial but there are advantages to having some knowledge of the jurers so one can object with a degree of knowledge rather than guessing based on their appearance,attitude, clothes & the quality of their ipad.

I could go on all day. As no doubt you could. But as Ireland continues to pour immigrants and migrants in from different cultures and languages and beliefs /faiths the issue of finding peers and what is culturally acknowledged and accepted versus the law of this land is going to get more and more difficult to control and mitigate for and we can expect more and more problems as this is ignored.

Underpinning all of this are the basic human values of sympathy, empathy and self interest which are difficult to mitigate for. Not to mention the absolute lack of consequences and sentencing for those convicted. Dublin is too small and people far too findable jurers not to have this in the back of tjeir minds - and the element of savagery and violence is too great for any person to to consider it . We wonder why there are no witnesses to that murder in Louth or to the Kinihan gang? The out on bail and suspended sentences have a lot to answer for. My my car eg I can be found with almost zero effort or speciality resources - name, address. Our technologies and resources have evolved since the 18th or 18th century - no wonder the reliability if our system hasn't when the weakest link is the human and their fears or needs.

Everything you say makes perfect sense. But I will still go back on my point (and direct experience) is no matter how imperfect you think it is it still just works.

I reckon anyone would be hard pressed here to show a miscarriage of justice. I have never come across someone in prison in Ireland who says they are wrongfully convicted. Of course they will go to court of criminal appeal but argue on a point of law.

Joe O Reilly still says he didn’t do it. That’s the closest. In the States juries probably don’t work because they aren’t peers. UK has had some of the biggest miscarriages but that was driven by fear and politics. I fear for miscarriages of justice with the wave of ISIS terrorism. That will test our jury system because no way will they be a jury of peers.

I have been involved in several cases in the Special Criminal Court and see the benefits of having a non jury trial. But I wouldn’t want it to be the way all trials are determined.

GerardKeating

Kittykat944 wrote: »

A friend was selected for jury service but is not required for certain days amidst the trial, do they need to attend work on these days?

Depends on the employeer, the employeer pays the employee attending Jury Duty, so (for entire days) would expect the employee to report for work when not on jury duty, where practical.

L1011

The ability of any competent bull****ter to get out of jury duty - and the direction by employers to try - terrifies me as to some of what remains.

I've spent a decade and a half exposed to first medical records and then the accusations of the masses in a media organisation: so it'd be a dangerous prosecution that let me stay on. I believe north Kildare is still circuited in Dublin too so there are comparatively few jury trials that call from our register