So Minister Naughten, its summer - Where is our Summer Solar Scheme 2018?

JHet

Requirements:

- Appropriate Feed in Tariff
- Suitable Grant Aid
- Payback of <=4 years

Regards,
J

unkel

JHet wrote: »

- Payback of <=4 years

That's not gonna happen. But I agree with your sentiments

JHet

unkel wrote: »

That's not gonna happen. But I agree with your sentiments

Agree, not a initially anyway. A wishlist more than anything else.

Likely to be disappointing offering in the first phase.

Dardania

JHet wrote: »

Requirements:

- Appropriate Feed in Tariff
- Suitable Grant Aid
- Payback of <=4 years

Regards,
J

Where was it stated that these would be delivered?

JHet

It's not

Dardania

JHet wrote: »

It's not

So why’s your point? That this should be so?

Have you contributed to any of the consultations that occurred in the last 2 or so years?

quentingargan

Those of us working in the industry would love to see generous grants and feed in tariffs, but really.... do we expect the government to support a scheme that gives wealthier households 25% return on their investments? I for one don't think that would be a fair burden on taxpayers who can't afford the capital cost of installation, or live in rented accommodation etc.

We have to manage our expectations, and having waited four years since Electric Ireland withdrew its export payments, my expectations are on the floor. A scheme has been "imminent" since then.

If we had net metering, OR a reasonable grant, that would be as much as we can expect. I would prefer net metering because it encourages conservation, but SEAI has made it clear that they are opting for a grant only - no feed in tariff for domestic. Funny that they wouldn't see the benefit of incentives for conservation :rolleyes:.

cnocbui

Solar energy is pointless in this country. Move to Australia where it makes half sense if you want solar.

gally74

cnocbui wrote: »

Solar energy is pointless in this country. Move to Australia where it makes half sense if you want solar.

Troll

cnocbui

gally74 wrote: »

Troll

Snowflake.

a148pro

What did that recent report say? Also is there not a hope that the eu will bring in some directive requiring the incentivisation of domestic production through FIT or grants or something?

quentingargan

a148pro wrote: »

What did that recent report say?

RESS Submission Report;
In most EU Member States, no specific schemes to support micro-generation and self-consumption exist. In fact, in a number of Member States, distribution system operators do not even measure the volume of self-generated electricity. Nevertheless, even in these countries consumers may find that they can save money by generating their own electricity from small-scale RES-E installations (e.g., rooftop PVs), rather than buying it from the grid. Examples of this type of activity are happening across Ireland today, without subsidy or payment.

.....It is acknowledged that there are wider societal and environmental benefits associated with microgeneration, however the economic analysis indicates that support for micro-generation may be excluded from support directly under the new RESS, for the following reasons:
1. There are significant higher costs associated with micro-generation above medium and large scale renewable projects. Renewable targets can be achieved more cost effectively through a primary RESS for medium and larger scale projects. Cost implications for people and businesses are a high priority for Government and the new scheme will be designed in a cost efficient manner.
2. International experience directs that market and network reform is required before microgeneration tariffs are introduced

I think that constitutes two fingers to a feed in tariff this summer?

Edward M

cnocbui wrote: »

Solar energy is pointless in this country. Move to Australia where it makes half sense if you want solar.

Works fine on my roof anyway, always water enough for 4 showerers!

cnocbui

Edward M wrote: »

Works fine on my roof anyway, always water enough for 4 showerers!

In December/January? - I don't believe you.

Edward M

cnocbui wrote: »

In December/January? - I don't believe you.

Heating on at that stage anyway,, there's always hot water though, have never used our immersion since panels went up, six years now.

H.E. Pennypacker

Has anyone heard anything about a Solar pv grant being announced? It must be causing some issues for pv suppliers given that it was to be a summer announcement, it’s now July and it’s hard to see people investing if they think a grant is a matter of weeks away.

quentingargan

H.E. Pennypacker wrote: »

Has anyone heard anything about a Solar pv grant being announced? It must be causing some issues for pv suppliers given that it was to be a summer announcement, it’s now July and it’s hard to see people investing if they think a grant is a matter of weeks away.

Yes - very frustrating. The industry is accustomed to regular announcements of FITs, grants etc. Incentives have been "imminent" for the last four years. :mad:

Ministers get free publicity for announcements, which is why everything gets announced several times before it happens.

There is already the Home Renovation Incentive which can refund VAT. Grants are likely to cause either a shortage of installers or other restrictions that up the price so some people are just ploughing on regardless.

There has been a consultation process ongoing for years now and nobody is holding their breath...

H.E. Pennypacker

quentingargan wrote: »

Yes - very frustrating. The industry is accustomed to regular announcements of FITs, grants etc. Incentives have been "imminent" for the last four years. :mad:

Ministers get free publicity for announcements, which is why everything gets announced several times before it happens.

There is already the Home Renovation Incentive which can refund VAT. Grants are likely to cause either a shortage of installers or other restrictions that up the price so some people are just ploughing on regardless.

There has been a consultation process ongoing for years now and nobody is holding their breath...

Thanks- and you’ve reminded me that the grant reduces the HRI claimable amount by a factor of three so given the risk of price increases post grant, there may not be a big difference in the cost pre/post grant

cnocbui

Edward M wrote: »

Heating on at that stage anyway,, there's always hot water though, have never used our immersion since panels went up, six years now.

My immersion is on a timer and heats for 1:10 a day, 365 days a year. Because it is controlled by a thermostat, it probably is only actually on for half that time as the water will primarily be heated by the CH. Worst case scenario, allowing that it actually heats all the time, is that it costs €205 a year to run. There is essentially no pay-back or break even on a SHWS in this country, which ranks in the very bottom tier of European countries for annual soalr irradiance.

Edit: Sorry, this is getting way off-topic, I'll withdraw from the thread now.

Edward M

cnocbui wrote: »

My immersion is on a timer and heats for 1:10 a day, 365 days a year. Because it is controlled by a thermostat, it probably is only actually on for half that time as the water will primarily be heated by the CH. Worst case scenario, allowing that it actually heats all the time, is that it costs €205 a year to run. There is essentially no pay-back or break even on a SHWS in this country, which ranks in the very bottom tier of European countries for annual soalr irradiance.

Edit: Sorry, this is getting way off-topic, I'll withdraw from the thread now.

Ah no, no need to withdraw. Just giving my two cents worth, don't know much about the technology end, but if it can lead to less fossils being used it would surely help the environment.
Grants to help out would be good.

JHet

H.E. Pennypacker wrote: »

Has anyone heard anything about a Solar pv grant being announced? It must be causing some issues for pv suppliers given that it was to be a summer announcement, it’s now July and it’s hard to see people investing if they think a grant is a matter of weeks away.

Huge issues I'd imagine, there was one guy I spoke to at the ideal homes exhibition, said he wouldn't be there but for the announcement.

It's such a pity, as the 600 million in potential fines from failure to meet Ireland's EU climate change obligations would be better served in grants. The low hanging fruit is of course the Agri sector.

There seems to be huge complexities in introducing a suitable FIT system without comprising the grid, as outlined in the ministers statement on the matter.

Having said that I've read through several threads on here, and quentingargan is right, its been just round the corner for several years, so absolutely no excuses not to have it sorted at this juncture.

With other countries winding down their FIT programs, will it even happen at all? I can't see it to be honest, knowing more about the matter than I did when I started this thread.

Apologies if I caused confusion with the opening post(only MODs can edit), more a wish list than anything else as to opposed to whats actually happening.

unkel

cnocbui wrote: »

My immersion is on a timer and heats for 1:10 a day, 365 days a year. Because it is controlled by a thermostat, it probably is only actually on for half that time as the water will primarily be heated by the CH. Worst case scenario, allowing that it actually heats all the time, is that it costs €205 a year to run.

A lot less than that even if you had a night rate meter (costs €0.00 to have one installed)

cnocbui wrote: »

this country, which ranks in the very bottom tier of European countries for annual soalr irradiance.

You're completely wrong there. Ireland is actually very good for solar. On about the same level as Paris and almost 70% as good as the Mediterranean, where we all love to go on sun holidays



It's a disgrace that we don't have 1000 times as much solar PV on our roofs paid for partly with subsidies and with feed in tariffs. It would avoid 100s of millions of fines we are about to pay because Ireland is the dirty stinky man of Europe.

rolion

Hi,

Lets think outside the box..aka the panels.
When the big boys will have the work done and the interests looked after,we will have a clear and positive output on our end of the panel inverters.

It looks like already some of them have got the foot on the door and tries to be with a step inside whil ekeeping status quo for current market:

BP understand the threats and see the opportunity to be part of the EV industry

cnocbui

unkel wrote: »

A lot less than that even if you had a night rate meter (costs €0.00 to have one installed)




You're completely wrong there. Ireland is actually very good for solar. On about the same level as Paris and almost 70% as good as the Mediterranean, where we all love to go on sun holidays



It's a disgrace that we don't have 1000 times as much solar PV on our roofs paid for partly with subsidies and with feed in tariffs. It would avoid 100s of millions of fines we are about to pay because Ireland is the dirty stinky man of Europe.

Night meter not available where I live.

Ireland is not good for Solar. Look at the ridiculous shading of the map in your image - talk about agenda pushing bias. The left axis scale is a joke, engineered to make a dismal situation look rosy. If it had been more honest, it would have used something actually relevant - real solar irradiance in KW per square meter, for instance. I'm originally from Australia - don't tell me Ireland is in a good position for solar. I have direct experience of valid solar energy use dating back to the mid 70's, when we had our first SHW heater in a country where it actually makes some economic sense.



I am deeply opposed to governments subsidising stuff and otherwise meddling in markets for trendy socio-political reasons. Look at the legacy we still are living with from when Gormley rigged VRT and fuel tax rates to make Ireland a near 100% diesel driven country. A classic example of the law of unintended consequences in action. Given Ireland's catastrophic levels of national debt, the government should be pulling it's head in and not subsidising renewable energy and should actually address government expenditure and be ceaseless in finding ways to reduce it.

We have just had nearly a month with barely a breeze and near zero levels of energy produced from wind. Billions spent on renewable energy generation capacity that has just sat idle producing sweet fanny adams.

Not content with one near useless form of renewable energy infrastructure, you and others want another, when a year is more than 6 months of darkness in this country, counting the very considerable role played by persistent cloud cover, not to mention the impracticality of the huge seasonally skewed solar irradiance due to our very high latitude.

Having three sets of energy generating infrastructure is sheer idiocy: Since renewables are totally unreliable, you need to always be able to generate 100% of the country's energy needs from conventional sources, which means all renewable sources are just additional layers of infrastructure cost that on a commercially level playing field wouldn't happen.

Build a nuclear power plant - end of. Renewables need an affordable and practical mechanism for storing energy to be practical. Unfortunately we don't have one. Flooding vast areas of natural habitat is very non-green approach. lithium batteries with a 10 year practical life span are still way too expensive and impractical at a national scale

The EU fines are just more ridiculous nonsense. Ireland should be tackling that farce head-on and with full force and get it changed. I'm sure we aren't the only EU member state facing a miss on that one.

quentingargan

Talk of biased data?? The Y axis on that graph starts near 600 so it looks like Ireland has about 1/4 of Aussie sunshine whereas it has over half.

Some simple maths. Solar PV on an industrial roof costs about €900 per Kw installed. On domestic it is about €1500. Each Kw will produce about 900 units of electricity per year. Retail that is about 16c (and going up next week) so €144 worth of power per year. Wholesale prices are down around 6c so that would be a lot less - €54 at wholesale.

So at wholesale level, there is a need for some subsidy, but unless you are a climate sceptic, that is well worth doing. Even if you are a climate sceptic, we are stitched into fines in 2020 unless we reduce emissions.

Wind has worked well over the last few weeks, but having a mix of wind, solar and hydro will ensure that spinning reserve can be dramatically reduced. Over-reliance on wind as a single source renewable is a mistake.

unkel

cnocbui wrote: »

I'm originally from Australia - don't tell me Ireland is in a good position for solar.

Ah well, no. Ireland can't compete with Australia on solar. Not even in the longest warmest heatwave this country has ever seen

gally74

unkel wrote: »

Ah well, no. Ireland can't compete with Australia on solar. Not even in the longest warmest heatwave this country has ever seen

Tick tock, so slow

gally74

gally74 wrote: »

Tick tock, so slow

https://www.pv-tech.org/news/irish-renewable-energy-support-scheme-approved-with-2019-auction-in-view

Yes let's get the big guys sorted out first

Dardania

Interesting excerpt:

next week I will launch a pilot scheme to support domestic renewable energy generation and self-consumption. The recently agreed recast Renewable Energy Directive brings the 'prosumer' to the heart of new energy policy across the EU. Ireland strongly supports the ambitions behind the establishment of the rights and entitlements associated with both renewable self-consumers and renewable energy communities within the Directive.



From https://www.dccae.gov.ie/en-ie/news-and-media/speeches/Pages/Statement-by-Minister-for-Communications,-Climate-Action-and-Environment-Denis-Naughten-TD-following-the-publication-of-the.aspx

niallers1

I received this response from SEAI yesterday..
"Thank you for contacting Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland (SEAI) with your query.
We can advise that the Solar PV grant is still in line to be introduced this year, however we currently still have no information in relation to when that will happen. "

"I can advise we still have your email address on our listing and when information does become available, you will receive a notification email with the details. "

gally74

Dardania wrote: »

Interesting excerpt:

next week I will launch a pilot scheme to support domestic renewable energy generation and self-consumption. The recently agreed recast Renewable Energy Directive brings the 'prosumer' to the heart of new energy policy across the EU. Ireland strongly supports the ambitions behind the establishment of the rights and entitlements associated with both renewable self-consumers and renewable energy communities within the Directive.



From https://www.dccae.gov.ie/en-ie/news-and-media/speeches/Pages/Statement-by-Minister-for-Communications,-Climate-Action-and-Environment-Denis-Naughten-TD-following-the-publication-of-the.aspx

Here's hoping

niallers1

It's here folks. €700 per KW installed up to 4kw and €1000 towards a battery. You must have a battery if you go over 2kw.
So looks like lots of PV systems at 2kw and under for now.
Does anybody know how much battery cost? i.e  2.5kw , 5kw and 10kw battery

air

Like all the other SEI schemes, this one is structured to maximise paperwork and administration.
It seems that those in charge at SEI are intent on empire building rather than promoting renewables.
A simple FIT subsidy was all that was required and would have been a far better use of taxpayer money.

Gumbo

air wrote: »

Like all the other SEI schemes, this one is structured to maximise paperwork and administration.
It seems that those in charge at SEI are intent on empire building rather than promoting renewables.
A simple FIT subsidy was all that was required and would have been a far better use of taxpayer money.

Can the SEAI authorize that though?

Is it true that we have to bring back a FIT in the coming years due to an EU rule?

air

They don't have to authorise it, just fund it!
Electric Ireland already administer a FIT scheme, all SEI would have to do would be to offer funding to energy suppliers to pay a FIT.
ESB Networks look after all the regulatory compliance issues through their existing microgeneration connection process.
The problem is that this doesn't create or maintain any roles for pen pushers in the SEI.
Of course the more pen pushers work there, the bigger the unit, the more kudos it gets, the bigger the salaries the senior staff can justify etc etc.

I worry about the future of this country, the place is running on middle class social welfare - which is all these quangos are.
We have far too many noses in the trough as it is.

quentingargan

niallers1 wrote: »

It's here folks. €700 per KW installed up to 4kw and €1000 towards a battery. You must have a battery if you go over 2kw.
So looks like lots of PV systems at 2kw and under for now.
Does anybody know how much battery cost? i.e  2.5kw , 5kw and 10kw battery

Installer is going to be responsible for ensuring compliance with matters such as planning. That will be a reason why many will opt for panels or less. But batteries are almost self-financing here. A battery is about €900 plus vat for 2.2 kw hrs. You should really have two of them but that isn't stipulated. An inverter to work with a battery is about €500 more than an inverter would otherwise be for a 4kw system

AIR is right - smart meters and a feed in tariff would have cost less, but the agenda seems to be set by ESB.

The cheapest way for Ireland Inc to put solar on the grid is commercial rooftop, but that doesn't fall into either the RESS or this scheme. Preference is for domestic small systems and solar parks.

All that said, the scheme is generous - I would think it is more generous than it needed to be, but I will be shot by others in the industry for saying that.

niallers1

Looking at the detail again it looks like you can go over 2kw without battery but you will only get €700 per kw up to 2kw. Example - If you get 3kw without battery you will only get €1400 in grant but if you go 3kw with battery you will get  €2100 for the solar and €1000 for the battery

stimpson

I just plugged my numbers into the SEAI spreadsheet:

Living in Dublin
South facing
2.5KW (for 12 m^2 of PV panels)
€4,600 (rough cost for panels + 2KW battery)
19c/unit price
Someone always at home

It estimates 8 years payback and €406 savings.

The problem is that my current bill is 33 units daytime and 981 night time. If I put in my night rate price of 11c (after VAT) it becomes 14 years payback and €225/year saving. It's really not worth it at that rate.

Does anyone know if I could install a battery and inverter to charge on night rate electricity and forego the panels completely??

unkel

stimpson wrote: »

If I put in my night rate price of 11c (after VAT) it becomes 14 years payback

Night rate with Energia is about 7c (after VAT), which would bring your payback to well over 20 years

Switch!!

stimpson wrote: »

Does anyone know if I could install a battery and inverter to charge on night rate electricity and forego the panels completely??

I would also like to know this!

unkel

quentingargan wrote: »

But batteries are almost self-financing here. A battery is about €900 plus vat for 2.2 kw hrs.

Any link to batteries like that?

stimpson

unkel wrote: »

Night rate with Energia is about 7c (after VAT), which would bring your payback to well over 20 years

Switch!!



I would also like to know this!

I am with Energia - the discount is itemised separately, so you're right:

7.2c/unit
21 years
€154 saving p.a.

goldfish

stimpson wrote: »

I just plugged my numbers into the SEAI spreadsheet:

Living in Dublin
South facing
2.5KW (for 12 m^2 of PV panels)
€4,600 (rough cost for panels + 2KW battery)
19c/unit price
Someone always at home

It estimates 8 years payback and €406 savings.

The problem is that my current bill is 33 units daytime and 981 night time. If I put in my night rate price of 11c (after VAT) it becomes 14 years payback and €225/year saving. It's really not worth it at that rate.

Does anyone know if I could install a battery and inverter to charge on night rate electricity and forego the panels completely??

Just checked the assumptions used in the SEAI calculator . The issue that I have is the SEAI as an "independent body" have effectively set the price per kW @ €1,900 per kW which is crazy! I for see an situation where any potential competition disappears. The idea of c. €4k for 2kW is nuts.

goldfish

stimpson wrote: »

I just plugged my numbers into the SEAI spreadsheet:

Living in Dublin
South facing
2.5KW (for 12 m^2 of PV panels)
€4,600 (rough cost for panels + 2KW battery)
19c/unit price
Someone always at home

It estimates 8 years payback and €406 savings.

The problem is that my current bill is 33 units daytime and 981 night time. If I put in my night rate price of 11c (after VAT) it becomes 14 years payback and €225/year saving. It's really not worth it at that rate.

Does anyone know if I could install a battery and inverter to charge on night rate electricity and forego the panels completely??

33 daytime kWh per two monthly bill ? You sure? seems v low. That's half a kWh per day?

stimpson

goldfish wrote: »

Just checked the assumptions used in the SEAI calculator . The issue that I have is the SEAI as an "independent body" have effectively set the price per kW @ €1,900 per kW which is crazy! I for see an situation where any potential competition disappears. The idea of c. €4k for 2kW is nuts.

That €4600 estimate was based a quote of 7K for 12m^2 panels (2.4 KW) and 2KWh batteries, less 2400 grant.

On the idea of battery vs night rate, it doesn't seem viable:

https://editorsean.com/articles/storing-solar-power-in-batteries-costs-more-than-the-grid/

The saltwater battery mentioned in the comments is £1167 + delivery.

I think I'll just be happy with my night rate and use the 5K towards an electric car.

stimpson

goldfish wrote: »

33 daytime kWh per two monthly bill ? You sure? seems v low. That's half a kWh per day?

Yeah - previous bill was 34 day and 1500 night and was an actual reading (current is an estimate but was very close when I checked the meter)

Immersion, washing machine and dishwasher run at night. All lights (and TV's) are LED, hob is induction.

orangerhyme

Why are houses built since 2011 excluded from this scheme?

Also Minister Naughten mentioned that an EU directive on feed in tariffs is imminent, does anyone know anything more about this?

Gumbo

orangerhyme wrote: »

Why are houses built since 2011 excluded from this scheme?

Also Minister Naughten mentioned that an EU directive on feed in tariffs is imminent, does anyone know anything more about this?

Since 2011, renewables were mandatory on dwellings already.

Water John

On the commercial side the FIT will come in the form of auctions. Negative bidding in effect. This was a disaster when used earlier in the Wind Farm development, AER 3. You'll have ESB or some such, bid in a ridicolously low price. They effectively may cross subsidise and undermine other projects.

Here, John Mullins is hoping to build out 10 by the end of next year.

https://www.eveningecho.ie/businessnews/Work-to-begin-on-10-Cork-solar-farms-cf4c4f17-82d0-49ae-b4e2-1be4ca33eb5c-ds

unkel

stimpson wrote: »

On the idea of battery vs night rate, it doesn't seem viable:

https://editorsean.com/articles/storing-solar-power-in-batteries-costs-more-than-the-grid/

The conclusion from that article for anyone that won't have the time / inclination to read it:

"From what I have determined, it’s pretty clear that most batteries cost more to store free energy (from solar, wind, etc.) than to buy that energy from the grid, at least in Ireland. "

I always use that as an argument. But the article is 2 years old, batteries have come down in value and seem to have a longer lifetime than previously thought (so cost a lot less per cycle). Couple this with a €1000 subsidy on a €1200 2kWh battery, and things are suddenly looking very differently!

I'm keen on getting a battery under this system if it can be done separately from solar PV

quentingargan

unkel wrote: »

I'm keen on getting a battery under this system if it can be done separately from solar PV

You can. If you already have a PV system installed, you can get the battery grant. But it would have to be installed by a solar installer registered etc.

stimpson

quentingargan wrote: »

You can. If you already have a PV system installed, you can get the battery grant. But it would have to be installed by a solar installer registered etc.

So what’s the smallest and cheapest PV you can install?