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So Minister Naughten, its summer - Where is our Summer Solar Scheme 2018?

  • 22-06-2018 7:03pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 524 ✭✭✭ JHet


    Requirements:

    - Appropriate Feed in Tariff
    - Suitable Grant Aid
    - Payback of <=4 years

    Regards,
    J


«134

Comments

  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 59,678 CMod ✭✭✭✭ unkel


    JHet wrote: »
    - Payback of <=4 years

    That's not gonna happen. But I agree with your sentiments :)

    "Wind is Ireland's oil" - An Taoiseach, 25/05/2022



  • Registered Users Posts: 524 ✭✭✭ JHet


    unkel wrote: »
    That's not gonna happen. But I agree with your sentiments :)

    Agree, not a initially anyway. A wishlist more than anything else.

    Likely to be disappointing offering in the first phase.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,612 ✭✭✭ Dardania


    JHet wrote: »
    Requirements:

    - Appropriate Feed in Tariff
    - Suitable Grant Aid
    - Payback of <=4 years

    Regards,
    J
    Where was it stated that these would be delivered?


  • Registered Users Posts: 524 ✭✭✭ JHet


    It's not


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,612 ✭✭✭ Dardania


    JHet wrote: »
    It's not

    So why’s your point? That this should be so?

    Have you contributed to any of the consultations that occurred in the last 2 or so years?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,627 ✭✭✭ quentingargan


    Those of us working in the industry would love to see generous grants and feed in tariffs, but really.... do we expect the government to support a scheme that gives wealthier households 25% return on their investments? I for one don't think that would be a fair burden on taxpayers who can't afford the capital cost of installation, or live in rented accommodation etc.

    We have to manage our expectations, and having waited four years since Electric Ireland withdrew its export payments, my expectations are on the floor. A scheme has been "imminent" since then.

    If we had net metering, OR a reasonable grant, that would be as much as we can expect. I would prefer net metering because it encourages conservation, but SEAI has made it clear that they are opting for a grant only - no feed in tariff for domestic. Funny that they wouldn't see the benefit of incentives for conservation :rolleyes:.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,356 ✭✭✭✭ cnocbui


    Solar energy is pointless in this country. Move to Australia where it makes half sense if you want solar.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,997 gally74


    cnocbui wrote: »
    Solar energy is pointless in this country. Move to Australia where it makes half sense if you want solar.

    Troll


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,356 ✭✭✭✭ cnocbui


    gally74 wrote: »
    Troll

    Snowflake.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,189 ✭✭✭ a148pro


    What did that recent report say? Also is there not a hope that the eu will bring in some directive requiring the incentivisation of domestic production through FIT or grants or something?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,627 ✭✭✭ quentingargan


    a148pro wrote: »
    What did that recent report say?
    RESS Submission Report;
    In most EU Member States, no specific schemes to support micro-generation and self-consumption exist. In fact, in a number of Member States, distribution system operators do not even measure the volume of self-generated electricity. Nevertheless, even in these countries consumers may find that they can save money by generating their own electricity from small-scale RES-E installations (e.g., rooftop PVs), rather than buying it from the grid. Examples of this type of activity are happening across Ireland today, without subsidy or payment.

    .....It is acknowledged that there are wider societal and environmental benefits associated with microgeneration, however the economic analysis indicates that support for micro-generation may be excluded from support directly under the new RESS, for the following reasons:
    1. There are significant higher costs associated with micro-generation above medium and large scale renewable projects. Renewable targets can be achieved more cost effectively through a primary RESS for medium and larger scale projects. Cost implications for people and businesses are a high priority for Government and the new scheme will be designed in a cost efficient manner.
    2. International experience directs that market and network reform is required before microgeneration tariffs are introduced


    I think that constitutes two fingers to a feed in tariff this summer?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,837 Edward M


    cnocbui wrote: »
    Solar energy is pointless in this country. Move to Australia where it makes half sense if you want solar.

    Works fine on my roof anyway, always water enough for 4 showerers!


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,356 ✭✭✭✭ cnocbui


    Edward M wrote: »
    Works fine on my roof anyway, always water enough for 4 showerers!

    In December/January? - I don't believe you.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,837 Edward M


    cnocbui wrote: »
    In December/January? - I don't believe you.

    Heating on at that stage anyway,, there's always hot water though, have never used our immersion since panels went up, six years now.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 844 H.E. Pennypacker


    Has anyone heard anything about a Solar pv grant being announced? It must be causing some issues for pv suppliers given that it was to be a summer announcement, it’s now July and it’s hard to see people investing if they think a grant is a matter of weeks away.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,627 ✭✭✭ quentingargan


    Has anyone heard anything about a Solar pv grant being announced? It must be causing some issues for pv suppliers given that it was to be a summer announcement, it’s now July and it’s hard to see people investing if they think a grant is a matter of weeks away.
    Yes - very frustrating. The industry is accustomed to regular announcements of FITs, grants etc. Incentives have been "imminent" for the last four years. :mad:

    Ministers get free publicity for announcements, which is why everything gets announced several times before it happens.

    There is already the Home Renovation Incentive which can refund VAT. Grants are likely to cause either a shortage of installers or other restrictions that up the price so some people are just ploughing on regardless.

    There has been a consultation process ongoing for years now and nobody is holding their breath...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 844 H.E. Pennypacker


    Yes - very frustrating. The industry is accustomed to regular announcements of FITs, grants etc. Incentives have been "imminent" for the last four years. :mad:

    Ministers get free publicity for announcements, which is why everything gets announced several times before it happens.

    There is already the Home Renovation Incentive which can refund VAT. Grants are likely to cause either a shortage of installers or other restrictions that up the price so some people are just ploughing on regardless.

    There has been a consultation process ongoing for years now and nobody is holding their breath...

    Thanks- and you’ve reminded me that the grant reduces the HRI claimable amount by a factor of three so given the risk of price increases post grant, there may not be a big difference in the cost pre/post grant


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,356 ✭✭✭✭ cnocbui


    Edward M wrote: »
    Heating on at that stage anyway,, there's always hot water though, have never used our immersion since panels went up, six years now.

    My immersion is on a timer and heats for 1:10 a day, 365 days a year. Because it is controlled by a thermostat, it probably is only actually on for half that time as the water will primarily be heated by the CH. Worst case scenario, allowing that it actually heats all the time, is that it costs €205 a year to run. There is essentially no pay-back or break even on a SHWS in this country, which ranks in the very bottom tier of European countries for annual soalr irradiance.

    Edit: Sorry, this is getting way off-topic, I'll withdraw from the thread now.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,837 Edward M


    cnocbui wrote: »
    My immersion is on a timer and heats for 1:10 a day, 365 days a year. Because it is controlled by a thermostat, it probably is only actually on for half that time as the water will primarily be heated by the CH. Worst case scenario, allowing that it actually heats all the time, is that it costs €205 a year to run. There is essentially no pay-back or break even on a SHWS in this country, which ranks in the very bottom tier of European countries for annual soalr irradiance.

    Edit: Sorry, this is getting way off-topic, I'll withdraw from the thread now.

    Ah no, no need to withdraw. Just giving my two cents worth, don't know much about the technology end, but if it can lead to less fossils being used it would surely help the environment.
    Grants to help out would be good.


  • Registered Users Posts: 524 ✭✭✭ JHet


    Has anyone heard anything about a Solar pv grant being announced? It must be causing some issues for pv suppliers given that it was to be a summer announcement, it’s now July and it’s hard to see people investing if they think a grant is a matter of weeks away.

    Huge issues I'd imagine, there was one guy I spoke to at the ideal homes exhibition, said he wouldn't be there but for the announcement.

    It's such a pity, as the 600 million in potential fines from failure to meet Ireland's EU climate change obligations would be better served in grants. The low hanging fruit is of course the Agri sector.

    There seems to be huge complexities in introducing a suitable FIT system without comprising the grid, as outlined in the ministers statement on the matter.

    Having said that I've read through several threads on here, and quentingargan is right, its been just round the corner for several years, so absolutely no excuses not to have it sorted at this juncture.

    With other countries winding down their FIT programs, will it even happen at all? I can't see it to be honest, knowing more about the matter than I did when I started this thread.

    Apologies if I caused confusion with the opening post(only MODs can edit), more a wish list than anything else as to opposed to whats actually happening.


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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 59,678 CMod ✭✭✭✭ unkel


    cnocbui wrote: »
    My immersion is on a timer and heats for 1:10 a day, 365 days a year. Because it is controlled by a thermostat, it probably is only actually on for half that time as the water will primarily be heated by the CH. Worst case scenario, allowing that it actually heats all the time, is that it costs €205 a year to run.

    A lot less than that even if you had a night rate meter (costs €0.00 to have one installed) :)

    cnocbui wrote: »
    this country, which ranks in the very bottom tier of European countries for annual soalr irradiance.

    You're completely wrong there. Ireland is actually very good for solar. On about the same level as Paris and almost 70% as good as the Mediterranean, where we all love to go on sun holidays

    solar-energy-ireland.png

    It's a disgrace that we don't have 1000 times as much solar PV on our roofs paid for partly with subsidies and with feed in tariffs. It would avoid 100s of millions of fines we are about to pay because Ireland is the dirty stinky man of Europe.

    "Wind is Ireland's oil" - An Taoiseach, 25/05/2022



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,364 ✭✭✭ rolion


    Hi,

    Lets think outside the box..aka the panels.
    When the big boys will have the work done and the interests looked after,we will have a clear and positive output on our end of the panel inverters.

    It looks like already some of them have got the foot on the door and tries to be with a step inside whil ekeeping status quo for current market:

    BP understand the threats and see the opportunity to be part of the EV industry


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,356 ✭✭✭✭ cnocbui


    unkel wrote: »
    A lot less than that even if you had a night rate meter (costs €0.00 to have one installed) :)




    You're completely wrong there. Ireland is actually very good for solar. On about the same level as Paris and almost 70% as good as the Mediterranean, where we all love to go on sun holidays

    solar-energy-ireland.png

    It's a disgrace that we don't have 1000 times as much solar PV on our roofs paid for partly with subsidies and with feed in tariffs. It would avoid 100s of millions of fines we are about to pay because Ireland is the dirty stinky man of Europe.

    Night meter not available where I live.

    Ireland is not good for Solar. Look at the ridiculous shading of the map in your image - talk about agenda pushing bias. The left axis scale is a joke, engineered to make a dismal situation look rosy. If it had been more honest, it would have used something actually relevant - real solar irradiance in KW per square meter, for instance. I'm originally from Australia - don't tell me Ireland is in a good position for solar. I have direct experience of valid solar energy use dating back to the mid 70's, when we had our first SHW heater in a country where it actually makes some economic sense.

    sun_irradiation_europe.jpg

    I am deeply opposed to governments subsidising stuff and otherwise meddling in markets for trendy socio-political reasons. Look at the legacy we still are living with from when Gormley rigged VRT and fuel tax rates to make Ireland a near 100% diesel driven country. A classic example of the law of unintended consequences in action. Given Ireland's catastrophic levels of national debt, the government should be pulling it's head in and not subsidising renewable energy and should actually address government expenditure and be ceaseless in finding ways to reduce it.

    We have just had nearly a month with barely a breeze and near zero levels of energy produced from wind. Billions spent on renewable energy generation capacity that has just sat idle producing sweet fanny adams.

    Not content with one near useless form of renewable energy infrastructure, you and others want another, when a year is more than 6 months of darkness in this country, counting the very considerable role played by persistent cloud cover, not to mention the impracticality of the huge seasonally skewed solar irradiance due to our very high latitude.

    Having three sets of energy generating infrastructure is sheer idiocy: Since renewables are totally unreliable, you need to always be able to generate 100% of the country's energy needs from conventional sources, which means all renewable sources are just additional layers of infrastructure cost that on a commercially level playing field wouldn't happen.

    Build a nuclear power plant - end of. Renewables need an affordable and practical mechanism for storing energy to be practical. Unfortunately we don't have one. Flooding vast areas of natural habitat is very non-green approach. lithium batteries with a 10 year practical life span are still way too expensive and impractical at a national scale

    The EU fines are just more ridiculous nonsense. Ireland should be tackling that farce head-on and with full force and get it changed. I'm sure we aren't the only EU member state facing a miss on that one.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,627 ✭✭✭ quentingargan


    Talk of biased data?? The Y axis on that graph starts near 600 so it looks like Ireland has about 1/4 of Aussie sunshine whereas it has over half.

    Some simple maths. Solar PV on an industrial roof costs about €900 per Kw installed. On domestic it is about €1500. Each Kw will produce about 900 units of electricity per year. Retail that is about 16c (and going up next week) so €144 worth of power per year. Wholesale prices are down around 6c so that would be a lot less - €54 at wholesale.

    So at wholesale level, there is a need for some subsidy, but unless you are a climate sceptic, that is well worth doing. Even if you are a climate sceptic, we are stitched into fines in 2020 unless we reduce emissions.

    Wind has worked well over the last few weeks, but having a mix of wind, solar and hydro will ensure that spinning reserve can be dramatically reduced. Over-reliance on wind as a single source renewable is a mistake.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 59,678 CMod ✭✭✭✭ unkel


    cnocbui wrote: »
    I'm originally from Australia - don't tell me Ireland is in a good position for solar.

    Ah well, no. Ireland can't compete with Australia on solar. Not even in the longest warmest heatwave this country has ever seen :)

    "Wind is Ireland's oil" - An Taoiseach, 25/05/2022



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,997 gally74


    unkel wrote: »
    Ah well, no. Ireland can't compete with Australia on solar. Not even in the longest warmest heatwave this country has ever seen :)

    Tick tock, so slow


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,997 gally74


    gally74 wrote: »
    Tick tock, so slow

    https://www.pv-tech.org/news/irish-renewable-energy-support-scheme-approved-with-2019-auction-in-view

    Yes let's get the big guys sorted out first


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,612 ✭✭✭ Dardania


    Interesting excerpt:

    next week I will launch a pilot scheme to support domestic renewable energy generation and self-consumption. The recently agreed recast Renewable Energy Directive brings the 'prosumer' to the heart of new energy policy across the EU. Ireland strongly supports the ambitions behind the establishment of the rights and entitlements associated with both renewable self-consumers and renewable energy communities within the Directive.



    From https://www.dccae.gov.ie/en-ie/news-and-media/speeches/Pages/Statement-by-Minister-for-Communications,-Climate-Action-and-Environment-Denis-Naughten-TD-following-the-publication-of-the.aspx


  • Registered Users Posts: 783 ✭✭✭ niallers1


    I received this response from SEAI yesterday..
    "Thank you for contacting Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland (SEAI) with your query.
    We can advise that the Solar PV grant is still in line to be introduced this year, however we currently still have no information in relation to when that will happen. "

    "I can advise we still have your email address on our listing and when information does become available, you will receive a notification email with the details. "


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,997 gally74


    Dardania wrote: »
    Interesting excerpt:

    next week I will launch a pilot scheme to support domestic renewable energy generation and self-consumption. The recently agreed recast Renewable Energy Directive brings the 'prosumer' to the heart of new energy policy across the EU. Ireland strongly supports the ambitions behind the establishment of the rights and entitlements associated with both renewable self-consumers and renewable energy communities within the Directive.



    From https://www.dccae.gov.ie/en-ie/news-and-media/speeches/Pages/Statement-by-Minister-for-Communications,-Climate-Action-and-Environment-Denis-Naughten-TD-following-the-publication-of-the.aspx

    Here's hoping


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