Irish Language

cfuserkildare

Not sure if I have this in the correct forum, But Anyway,

The Irish/Gaelic language came to Ireland around 800BC,

So what was the Native language before the Celts arrived?

Is there Any way of knowing what was spoken here first?

Because I see and here Sooo many people wanting to speak the Original Language, but forget that the Celts were fairly late arrivals to Ireland's shores.

Any help greatly appreciated.

mzungu

Hi cfuserkildare. This is a really interesting topic.

As far as I am aware there is no consensus among scholars about languages in the pre-celtic era (open to correction on this) due to the fact there are no written records of that time. There may be traces of the pre-celtic language in Irish but it is hard to gauge. It has been noted in the past that there are passing resemblance's to some Berber languages in north Africa, but this is by no means a confirmation.

One thing that is fairly certain is that it was not an Indo-European language. About the same time of Indo-European languages moved west from the great steppes of Eurasia (7000 odd years ago), Ireland was already inhabited at that stage (and for quite some time, too), so it was definitely something else being spoken.

Further to note, that whatever the language that pre-dated the celts was, it was most likely the language that has been used for the longest period on these shores.

If you wish to read into it further, please check out the link below starting at page 113. This goes into what's written above in greater detail.

Source: https://publishup.uni-potsdam.de/opus4-ubp/frontdoor/deliver/index/docId/691/file/celtic_languages_in_contact.pdf

Black Swan

mzungu wrote: »

Hi cfuserkildare. This is a really interesting topic.

Indeed.

mzungu wrote: »

As far as I am aware there is no consensus among scholars about languages in the pre-celtic era (open to correction on this) due to the fact there are no written records of that time.

It's been approximated that the arrival of the Goidelic language occurred between 500 and 100 BC, but what language(s) existed before this is problematic.

mzungu

Black Swan wrote: »

Indeed.



It's been approximated that the arrival of the Goidelic language occurred between 500 and 100 BC, but what language(s) existed before this is problematic.

Unfortunately! It really would be great to have more concrete information about the pre-celtic era. I think serious kudos is in order for scholars that have tried to piece together and theorise what they can, but in all likely hood we will probably never be able to get anything resembling a full picture.

Black Swan

Makes me wonder if the Old Library at Trinity may have information suggesting an answer to your question cfuserkildare?

cfuserkildare

Black Swan,

Sounds like a Road Trip might be in order!

Fathom

Old Trinity library? Is this how the Irish saved civilization?

cfuserkildare

Fathom wrote: »

Old Trinity library? Is this how the Irish saved civilization?

Well ,
We now know that the Pictish language was pre Gael/Celt, then was absorbed into the Gaelic language in Scotland,
So I wonder how closely related Pre-celt Irish it would have been?

Franz Von Peppercorn

cfuserkildare wrote: »

Well ,
We now know that the Pictish language was pre Gael/Celt, then was absorbed into the Gaelic language in Scotland,
So I wonder how closely related Pre-celt Irish it would have been?

The real question is how a language replaced another one at all without an invasion.

Pict and Gaelic merges after the alliance between Picts and Gaelic speakers created the kingdom of alba.

cfuserkildare

There essentially Was an invasion Franz Von Peppercorn.
The Gaels moved up from South East England and progressively displaced the Picts,
Hence the ISolation of the CEltic-P branch of the Language into Northern Scotland, Wales and Cornwall.

Peregrinus

Which is not to say that it was necessarily a military invasion. But an influx of some kind which displaced the existing language/culture.

bob mcbob

cfuserkildare wrote: »

There essentially Was an invasion Franz Von Peppercorn.
The Gaels moved up from South East England and progressively displaced the Picts,
Hence the ISolation of the CEltic-P branch of the Language into Northern Scotland, Wales and Cornwall.

Interesting but from my understanding during Roman times, Pictland was all the lands north of the Forth and Clyde.

As the Romans were trying to annex the lands between Forth/Clyde and Hadrians wall (via Antonine's wall) they obviously would not be calling that Pictland.

As far as I know, there is no evidence that before Roman times, the boundary between Picts and the Gaels was the Forth / Clyde.

Franz Von Peppercorn

cfuserkildare wrote: »

There essentially Was an invasion Franz Von Peppercorn.
The Gaels moved up from South East England and progressively displaced the Picts,
Hence the ISolation of the CEltic-P branch of the Language into Northern Scotland, Wales and Cornwall.

Do you have a source for that? Celt Q languages originated in Ireland and the Isle of Mann ( where Manx is still closer to Irish than Welsh) and spread to western Scotland either by invasions or influence. The gaels didn't ever live in south east England.

All the rest of the of Britain, except perhaps the picts, spoke a version of Celt P until the Roman invasions, after which some people spoke latin. In general its assumed that Pictish was closer to Celt P than celt Q.

The Celtic languages in Britain are on the periphery because of the Anglo Saxon invasions.

( As an approximation celt P = Welsh, Cornish, Briton. Welsh : celt Q = Irish, Gaelic and Manx).