Legal to be paid in vouchers?

Danleo171

So a friend of mine did 2 days of work in a bar as extra staff on a busy weekend.
My friend requested the payment for the work to be made several times over the next few weeks and eventually they sent a one4all voucher to the same value of about 180 euro.
My question is if there is a way to receive actual money in lieue of this voucher as my friend was not told they would be paid this way and they simply sent the voucher with no indication this was how she would be paid.
Any information appreciated.
Thanks

Seth Brundle

What had they been told they would get paid originally?
€180?
I presume that the employer is doing it to avoid tax & prsi hassle.

Danleo171

Seth Brundle wrote: »

What had they been told they would get paid originally?
€180?
I presume that the employer is doing it to avoid tax & prsi hassle.

All they were told is that they'd be paid for the work they did, the amount of the voucher is the same value as how much money they would have earned

_Brian

It’s not the end of the world.
If they want more work from this employer they could just explain that money is required the next time.

JustAThought

Sounds like the rmployer wanted it as a cash in hand job but to be able to claim expenses on the voucher - clever! Does your friend want his finances explored by SW or the taxman if he makes a complaint? All for One are handy but I doubt many landlords accept them! Can you use them as debit cards to pay bills in local shops that accept billpay and all4one cards? (Genuine question!)

TomOnBoard

Totally illegal.

One for all vouchers are NOT Legal Tender. They probably bought them as a discount as well.

JustAThought

TomOnBoard wrote: »

Totally illegal.

One for all vouchers are NOT Legal Tender. They probably bought them as a discount as well.

They are accepted at their value in thousands of outlets nationwide and are -in many ways - very handy. Unless you need to pay your rent! We got our Christmas (cash) bonus using them -and so got away with not being taxed on the bonus - a nice bonus : )

TomOnBoard

JustAThought wrote: »

They are accepted at their value in thousands of outlets nationwide and are -in many ways - very handy. Unless you need to pay your rent! We got our Christmas (cash) bonus using them -and so got away with not being taxed on the bonus - a nice bonus : )

Whether they're useful or not in certain circumstances is irrelevant in the context of OPs original question. They are simply NOT Legal Tender and don't satisfy the requirements of the Payment of Wages, nor of the Income Tax and other Statutory Deductions laws.

Peregrinus

Payment of Wages Act 1991 s. 2 sets out the various modes in which wages may be paid - cash, cheque, bank draft, credit transfer, etc. There are lots of acceptable modes, but vouchers are definitely not one of them. An employer who pages wages other than in one of the permitted modes commits an offence.

Victor

Peregrinus wrote: »

Payment of Wages Act 1991 s. 2 sets out the various modes in which wages may be paid - cash, cheque, bank draft, credit transfer, etc. There are lots of acceptable modes, but vouchers are definitely not one of them. An employer who pages wages other than in one of the permitted modes commits an offence.

I concur. The legislation has been updated since.

Peregrinus

It's worth adding that this is not dependent on any agreement between employer and employee. You may not be paid your wages in vouchers even with your agreement; the employer still commits an offence by doing that.

OMM 0000

What kind of employer would do something like that. It makes me wonder what other horrible and incredibly selfish things they are doing.

drunkmonkey

Seth Brundle wrote: »

I presume that the employer is doing it to avoid tax & prsi hassle.

Isn't there a casual labour allowance, I think you can pay out up to 2k a year cash without having to go register people, it's for when you need somebody just for a few days etc they won't turn into a full employee. There was no need to pay in vouchers they could have paid them legally unless they've already blown the allowance on other staff.

drunkmonkey

Victor wrote: »

I concur. The legislation has been updated since.

Aren't one4all vouchers classed as money etc for bonuses though, not as good as cash but similar.

enricoh

Mountain out of a molehill. One4all can be used in hundreds of shops, what's the big deal - it's 2 days work , not the months wages! Drama.

Seth Brundle

enricoh wrote: »

Mountain out of a molehill. One4all can be used in hundreds of shops, what's the big deal - it's 2 days work , not the months wages! Drama.

In fairness you don't know the financial situation of the OP's friend. Maybe they needed the money quickly which us why they did a nixer.

SteM

enricoh wrote: »

Mountain out of a molehill. One4all can be used in hundreds of shops, what's the big deal - it's 2 days work , not the months wages! Drama.

If he wants cash/cheque then that's what should get. How is that making a mountain out of a molehill?

If I bought something worth €15 in a shop, handed in €20 and got a €5 oneforall voucher back as change I wouldn't accept it. Would I be making a mountain out of a molehill?

Balmed Out

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Isn't there a casual labour allowance, I think you can pay out up to 2k a year cash without having to go register people, it's for when you need somebody just for a few days etc they won't turn into a full employee. There was no need to pay in vouchers they could have paid them legally unless they've already blown the allowance on other staff.

pretty sure theres no such thing or at least would be shocked if there were.

relax carry on

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Isn't there a casual labour allowance, I think you can pay out up to 2k a year cash without having to go register people, it's for when you need somebody just for a few days etc they won't turn into a full employee. There was no need to pay in vouchers they could have paid them legally unless they've already blown the allowance on other staff.

No such thing.

https://www.revenue.ie/en/employing-people/becoming-an-employer-and-ongoing-obligations/registration-of-employers-for-paye-purposes/index.aspx

Rulmeq

SteM wrote: »

If I bought something worth €15 in a shop, handed in €20 and got a €5 oneforall voucher back as change I wouldn't accept it. Would I be making a mountain out of a molehill?

Just an FYI, that's a bad example, as shops have no legal obligation to make change (the bad publicity ensures none of them will try it on, but still)

drunkmonkey

relax carry on wrote: »

No such thing.

https://www.revenue.ie/en/employing-people/becoming-an-employer-and-ongoing-obligations/registration-of-employers-for-paye-purposes/index.aspx

Not sure what's that got to do with anything, I can't find the legislation but I'm pretty sure if you want someone just for a day you don't need to go register them as an employee. Just from recollection I've 2k a year in my head as the amount you can pay out for as ad hoc work. That was advice from an accountant.

drunkmonkey

Balmed Out wrote: »

pretty sure theres no such thing or at least would be shocked if there were.

I'd be shocked if there wasn't. You'd never give a random days work to anyone on social welfare and they wouldn't take it up.

Sleeper12

TomOnBoard wrote:

One for all vouchers are NOT Legal Tender. They probably bought them as a discount as well.

TomOnBoard wrote:

Totally illegal.

And they are only good for a limited amount of time.

I can see how this might avoid tax for the employer but not good for the staff

SteM

Rulmeq wrote: »

Just an FYI, that's a bad example, as shops have no legal obligation to make change (the bad publicity ensures none of them will try it on, but still)

I'm aware of that but my point was that if they did offer change in allforone vouchers would I be making 'a mountain out of a molehill' if I didn't accept them. I have the option of walking away from the transaction at that point, the OP's friend can't do that. They've already provided the service, they should be paid the way they want to be paid.

ED E

OMM 0000 wrote: »

What kind of employer would do something like that. It makes me wonder what other horrible and incredibly selfish things they are doing.

3rd level institutions do it regularly.

relax carry on

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Not sure what's that got to do with anything, I can't find the legislation but I'm pretty sure if you want someone just for a day you don't need to go register them as an employee. Just from recollection I've 2k a year in my head as the amount you can pay out for as ad hoc work. That was advice from an accountant.

Get a better accountant. If you read the link you'll note that the effect of the payment amounts means all employees have to be registered. There's no such thing as casual untaxed wages. Anything like that in your accounts should be easy pickings for an auditor if they chose to pursue it as part of an intervention. From next year with PAYE modernisation all payments to all employees will be visible to Revenue in near real time.

seamus

drunkmonkey wrote: »

That was advice from an accountant.

Chances are the accountant was telling you that could stick down amounts as "sundry expenses" and save yourself the hassle of having to declare an employee. But don't have more than €2k of such expenses or you'll find yourself having question asked.

A lot of the advice accountants give is more about what works in practice rather than what the law says. So when an accountant says, "You can pay out €2k a year in casual labour", they mean that you can do that in practice without causing problems, not that the law says you can.

On forums like boards most of the accounting advice people will give is far more legally rigid, and they'll tell you that you most definitely can't do anything like this and Revenue auditors will destroy you.

Legally you can't, in practice you probably can and Revenue would slap you on the wrists and tell you not to do it again. (Note: Someone is thinking of quoting this and telling me I'm definitely wrong, Revenue will fine you trillions of euro and put you in jail for 20 years. Don't bother, you're just proving my point.)

In terms of the OP, no the employer can't pay him in vouchers. But ultimately what can he do about it? Take it to court? Live and learn, remember not to do that guy a favour in future.

drunkmonkey

relax carry on wrote: »

Get a better accountant. If you read the link you'll note that the effect of the payment amounts means all employees have to be registered. There's no such thing as casual untaxed wages. Anything like that in your accounts should be easy pickings for an auditor if they chose to pursue it as part of an intervention. From next year with PAYE modernisation all payments to all employees will be visible to Revenue in near real time.

I'm not referring to employees, it's a once off work.

drunkmonkey

seamus wrote: »

Chances are the accountant was telling you that could stick down amounts as "sundry expenses" and save yourself the hassle of having to declare an employee. But don't have more than €2k of such expenses or you'll find yourself having question asked.

A lot of the advice accountants give is more about what works in practice rather than what the law says. So when an accountant says, "You can pay out €2k a year in casual labour", they mean that you can do that in practice without causing problems, not that the law says you can.

On forums like boards most of the accounting advice people will give is far more legally rigid, and they'll tell you that you most definitely can't do anything like this and Revenue auditors will destroy you.

Legally you can't, in practice you probably can and Revenue would slap you on the wrists and tell you not to do it again. (Note: Someone is thinking of quoting this and telling me I'm definitely wrong, Revenue will fine you trillions of euro and put you in jail for 20 years. Don't bother, you're just proving my point.)

In terms of the OP, no the employer can't pay him in vouchers. But ultimately what can he do about it? Take it to court? Live and learn, remember not to do that guy a favour in future.

That's probably what I'm thinking of it's a while since I done it, but they said I was ok for 2k a year.

enricoh

enricoh wrote: »

Mountain out of a molehill. One4all can be used in hundreds of shops, what's the big deal - it's 2 days work , not the months wages! Drama.

I am curious if the employer that gave them would accept them as payment.

If not it suggests they aren't as good as cash.

Gift vouchers also have an amount taken off every month after twelve months so can't be used as savings and we dont know when they were bought.

lanciadub

enricoh wrote: »

Mountain out of a molehill. One4all can be used in hundreds of shops, what's the big deal - it's 2 days work , not the months wages! Drama.

my thoughts exactly ..

Glass fused light

drunkmonkey wrote: »

I'd be shocked if there wasn't. You'd never give a random days work to anyone on social welfare and they wouldn't take it up.

Problem is that the state has to then rely on the honesty of the employee to declare the day and not claim SW.
They did have a casual system (X&O's ?) but the employer had to sign for days worked or unworked

drunkmonkey wrote: »

I'm not referring to employees, it's a once off work.

in tax it's either an employee for whom you deduct tax or a self employed self tax filing contractor.

As an employer you pay net so you would owe the Revenue the employee tax and employer and SW payments plus the fines for non disclosure pre-audit.

If it was payroll only audit they will expand to audit everything, and if the accountant has not been squeeky strict other stuff will be found that has to be explained. You also have an issue that you can't prove that the employee had a legal right to work, not keeping employee records etc so it could get very messy and expensive just on management time loss alone.

Glass fused light

ED E wrote: »

OMM 0000 wrote: »

What kind of employer would do something like that. It makes me wonder what other horrible and incredibly selfish things they are doing.

3rd level institutions do it regularly.

Third level institutions would be in breach of the act if they pay wages by way of vouchers.
They are allowed to make a non-contractual tax free bonus payment in vouches.

It they have a voucher system for goods or services purchased and provided to an employee, (eg childcare or meals) this is a post tax deduction from gross wage which the employer better have written consent from the employee for.

Danleo171

Thanks for the information from those actually helping, is there any official body I could contact for help on this without going straight to a solicitor?

Danleo171

Danleo171 wrote: »

All they were told is that they'd be paid for the work they did, the amount of the voucher is the same value as how much money they would have earned

The same as the amount they would have earned, or actually received after paying the taxman?

Peregrinus

Danleo171 wrote: »

Thanks for the information from those actually helping, is there any official body I could contact for help on this without going straight to a solicitor?

Mandate is the trade union which represents bar staff. They would certainly be interested to know that the pub in question is engaging in this practice. They won't fight your corner, though, if you're not a member, which presumably you're not.

You could check out the website of the Workplace Relations Commission. There's a page there on how to make a complaint, and what happens when you do.

May Contain Small Parts

enricoh wrote: »

Mountain out of a molehill. One4all can be used in hundreds of shops, what's the big deal - it's 2 days work , not the months wages! Drama.

Utter nonsense.

Look at it this way, where can you spend them? A large number of shops, but all places that either sell non-essentials(eg. Woodies) or are overly expensive(eg. super-valu).

If you're in the position where you're picking up odd hours and extra shifts then you need to spend the vast majority of your funds on unprepared food and other essentials. ie. you can't afford to spend your money in the places that accept One4All. If you do spend your money there then you're losing a significant proportion of your earnings.

cml387

Most people of a certain vintage will be aware of the large notice boards in factories and other places of work with details of employment and safety law.

I remember reading on it about the truck act