Breach of Employee Rights in Shop?

ClaraC123

Hi,

I work in a petrol shop part time, and recently whenever there has been a drive-off where a person has not paid for their fuel, our manager and supervisor make us pay for the drive off instead of calling the authorities about the issue. They said we had no choice.

It has happened four people this week already. One worker said that the man who got the petrol, opened the car door in an attempt to hide from the camera, and when the worker asked the customer had he fuel, he lied and said no. And the worker still had to pay for the drive off.

Is this legal and within the shop's right to make us pay for drive offs out of our own money? This is done by cash in hand and not deducted from the paycheck so it slips under the radar a bit.

Thanks for reading

mickmackmcgoo

Unfortunately if it's in your contract re till shortages, then it can be taken . Check your contract. If the customer drove off without actually coming into the shop at all id be fighting it strongly

ClaraC123

mickmackmcgoo wrote: »

Unfortunately if it's in your contract re till shortages, then it can be taken . Check your contract. If the customer drove off without actually coming into the shop at all id be fighting it strongly

The thing is we didn't get a contact

The whole thing is very hush hush, that's what makes me suspicious

jimmycrackcorm

mickmackmcgoo wrote:

Unfortunately if it's in your contract re till shortages, then it can be taken . Check your contract. If the customer drove off without actually coming into the shop at all id be fighting it strongly

That's not true. You cannot be held responsible for someone else's theft especially when the employer won't follow up with Gardai.

TomOnBoard

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

That's not true. You cannot be held responsible for someone else's theft especially when the employer won't follow up with Gardai.

I'd be following up with the Gardai myself. Effectively, you've been robbed. Whether the driver did it or your employer/manager did, a crime has been committed on you and you have a right to report it.

Sam Quentin

WTF.. No you shouldn't have to pay.
That's all I have to say.
Let the legal experts/professionals explain why!?

_Brian

If an employer intends to do this there should be such clause in The employee contract.

It’s covered under the payment of wages act.

It is allowed for in your contract

It is fair and reasonable

You have received a written notice of the deduction - a full week's notice if the deduction arises from your mistake

The amount of the deduction does not exceed the loss or cost of the service

The deduction takes place within 6 months of the loss/cost occurring

I would strongly argue that this isn’t fair as it’s not as result of the employee but rather theft by a third party.

Trampas

How does a person working on a till suppose to stop someone filling up and driving off. It should be up to the owner to have the proper procedures in place to prevent it.

These procedures are in place in some stations.

They’re like leaving the front door open and blaming your neighbour if your house gets robbed while you are out.

What’s to stop him filling up his own cars and getting his staff to pay for it. It’s extreme and highly unlikely but more making a point.

I understand doesn’t answer your question.

I’d like to see him trying to win his argument in a court

Fann Linn

NERA is your man .

mickmackmcgoo

jimmycrackcorm wrote:

That's not true. You cannot be held responsible for someone else's theft especially when the employer won't follow up with Gardai.

I fully agree No one should be responsible for someone else's theft . My point was that lots of employment contracts have till shortage clauses in them. If the customer filled up and drove off then no way should any one have it deducted from wages , that's despicable.

Killed

This is taken from the WRC website. Deductions are only allowed through an act or omission of an employee. There's no way either of those scenarios cover theft by a third party. If the employer does not give back the money deducted for the drive off then make a complaint to the Workplace Relations Commission, http://www.workplacerelations.ie/en/Complaints_Disputes/Refer_a_Dispute_Make_a_Complaint/




Deductions
An employer is allowed to make the following deductions from an employee’s wage:

Any deduction required or authorised by law (e.g. PAYE or PRSI)
Any deduction authorised by the term of an employee's contract (e.g. pension contributions, or particular till shortages)
Any deduction agreed to in writing in advance by the employee (e.g. health insurance subscription, sports and social club membership subscription)
Special restrictions are placed on employers in relation to deductions (or the receipt of payments) from wages, which -

arise from any act or omission of the employee (e.g. till shortages, bad workmanship, breakages), or
are in respect of the supply to the employee by the employer of goods or services which are necessary to the employment (e.g. the provision or cleaning of uniforms).
Any deduction (or payment) from wages of the kinds described at a. or b. above must satisfy the following conditions -

the deduction (or payment to the employer) must be provided for in the contract of employment in a term whether express or implied and, if express, whether oral or in writing
the amount of the deduction (or payment to the employer) from wages must be fair and reasonable having regard to all the circumstances including the amount of the wages of the employee,
the employee must be given at some time prior to the act or omission, or the provision of the goods or services, written details of the terms in the contract of employment governing the deduction (or payment to the employer) from wages. When a written contract exists, a copy of the term of the contract which provides for the deduction or payment must be given to the employee. In any other case, the employee must be given written notice of the existence and effect of the term.
Any deduction (or payment to the employer) arising from any act or omission of an employee, in addition to meeting the requirements set out at (I) to (iii) above, must satisfy the following conditions:

the employee must be given particulars in writing of the act or omission and the amount of the deduction (or payment) at least one week before the deduction (or payment) is made,
the deduction (or payment) must be made no later than 6 months after the act or omission became known to the employer. However, if a series of deductions (or payments) are to be made in respect of a particular act or omission, the first deduction (or payment) in the series must be made within the 6 month period.
Where an employer makes a deduction from wages (or receives a payment from the employee) to compensate for loss or damage arising from any act or omission of the employee, the deduction must comply with the conditions set down at (i) to (v) above. In addition, the deduction (or payment):

vi. must be of an amount not exceeding the loss or damage sustained by the employer,

A disciplinary fine, where provision for such is made in the contract, may be deducted as well as a deduction for loss or damages. Any such fine would, of course, be subject to the conditions set down at (i) to (v)

Any deduction (or payment to the employer) from wages for the supply to the employee of goods or services which are necessary to the employment must meet with the requirements set out at (i) to (iii) above. In addition, any such deduction (or payment) must comply with the following conditions:

the deduction (or payment) must not exceed the cost to the employer the deduction (or payment) must not exceed the cost to the employer of providing the goods or services. In other words, the employer should not stand to profit by the sale of the goods or services to the employee,
the deduction (or payment) must be made no later than 6 months after the supply of the goods or services to the employee. However, if a series of deductions (or payments) are to be made in respect of the supply of a particular good or service, the first deduction (or payment) in the series must be made within the 6 month period.
NOTE - Non-payment of wages or any deficiency in the amount of wages properly payable by an employer to an employee on any occasion will be regarded as an unlawful deduction from wages unless the deficiency or non-payment is attributable to an error of computation.

TomOnBoard

The deduction, if legitimate, should also be done through wages, and appear on the payslip, NOT by taking cash off the employee... Veeery sketchy!!!

ClaraC123

Thanks for all the replies, it's just what I figured!

We were told for ages we had no choice in the matter, and it was all very secretive and done in the back room. Before, they used to call the guards but now it seems they just target people on the tills who served the customer.

I've heard about NERA, is there other places I could contact too? It's a Centra store by the way and a fairly large one. Would Musgraves be able to do something?

TomOnBoard

Just call the Guards, explaining that some punter left without paying. Show whatever CCTV ye have. In the course of the Garda investigation, explain the process there and the loss you've suffered. That'll sort it out lickety split..

Also, take details of any time it happens

ClaraC123

TomOnBoard wrote: »

Just call the Guards, explaining that some punter left without paying. Show whatever CCTV ye have. In the course of the Garda investigation, explain the process there and the loss you've suffered. That'll sort it out lickety split..

Also, take details of any time it happens

Thank you I will. One person who works with us, her dad is actually a guard which is even more unbelievable that they would risk it on us. She's going to tell him soon what's been happening lately

ClaraC123

Trampas wrote: »

How does a person working on a till suppose to stop someone filling up and driving off. It should be up to the owner to have the proper procedures in place to prevent it.

These procedures are in place in some stations.

They’re like leaving the front door open and blaming your neighbour if your house gets robbed while you are out.

What’s to stop him filling up his own cars and getting his staff to pay for it. It’s extreme and highly unlikely but more making a point.

I understand doesn’t answer your question.

I’d like to see him trying to win his argument in a court

I agree completely, especially if they lied about getting petrol, it's not our place to pay for a theft

CrankyHaus

No contract and your employer attempting to strong-arm you into paying him for his losses from theft?
Has he made any threats about what happens if you refuse to pay up?

If you're smart you'll pay him nothing. He's a hustler trying to pass his theft losses onto the most vulnerable people he can put pressure on.

All garages face loss from drive-offs, they address it with tools like CCTV, Garda reporting and locking pumps to pre-pay as necessary. That's your employer's responsibility to manage.

In the long run consider another job. It's not 2011, there's vacancies everywhere and I'd expect more fun and games, potentially unpaid wages or unpaid PRSI, from this clown.

In guessing you're fairly young? Take dated notes of what he does and says so you can rely on them to seek redress if he screws you. The redress mechanisms aren't bad and are fairly easy to navigate yourself provided you have the time, which must young people do. All the info's online. It will be a good education in how to deal with bullying shysters.

ClaraC123

CrankyHaus wrote: »

No contract and your employer attempting to strong-arm you into paying him for his losses from theft?
Has he made any threats about what happens if you refuse to pay up?

If you're smart you'll pay him nothing. He's a hustler trying to pass his theft losses onto the most vulnerable people he can put pressure on.

All garages face loss from drive-offs, they address it with tools like CCTV, Garda reporting and locking pumps to pre-pay as necessary. That's your employer's responsibility to manage.

In the long run consider another job. It's not 2011, there's vacancies everywhere and I'd expect more fun and games, potentially unpaid wages or unpaid PRSI, from this clown.

No he hasn't, as everyone so far just paid up. However, people are getting more mad about it understandably so I think that will change very soon.

Going to get in touch with citizens information tomorrow too to see what they can do as well.

Thanks for answering

ted1

mickmackmcgoo wrote: »

Unfortunately if it's in your contract re till shortages, then it can be taken . Check your contract. If the customer drove off without actually coming into the shop at all id be fighting it strongly

Rubbish. It’s not a toll shortage, it’s blatant theft. Although if the person goes to the till it’s nit as clear cut as a drive off, the staff should keep an eye in the the pumps and if there’s one after been in use should identify the driver
Find a new job and report him.

mickmackmcgoo

ted1 wrote:

Rubbish. It’s not a toll shortage, it’s blatant theft. Although if the person goes to the till it’s nit as clear cut as a drive off, the staff should keep an eye in the the pumps and if there’s one after been in use should identify the driver Find a new job and report him.

Yes it is theft . My point about till shortages in contract relates to someone coming in to the shop after getting fuel but not declaring it to the customer assistant. I'm on the ops side on this .

idnkph

I'm confused. Does the boss ask for the money to be handed over after payment to the employee or does he pay in cash and take it before handing it over?
If employees are willing to hand the money back to him them more fool them but if he is taking it and not making a record on pay slips then that is theft.
Are you working there for cash in hand or are you under the assumption he is paying your taxes?
You should not be responsible for someone else's theft.

vandriver

My car takes €80 to fill.If I drove off from your station,would you honestly hand over a full days wages?

Sam Quentin

JOE DUFFY ASAP..
Out this bully.

questionmark?

mickmackmcgoo wrote: »

Unfortunately if it's in your contract re till shortages, then it can be taken . Check your contract. If the customer drove off without actually coming into the shop at all id be fighting it strongly

What rubbish. OP ignore this post. Theft doesn't come into this clause. If your boss gets mugged in the morning on your work premises with cash that was meant for the till do you think he can legally take it out of your wages?

OP. Your boss is a robber just like those that drive off without paying for petrol. Report all theft.