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Your one realistic lifetime grail watch?
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19-06-2018 3:29pm#1
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I'd like a simple steel royal oak. Probably not something I'll ever own, but it's the dream. I really like the style of the royal oak, a while back I was thinking of getting a replica but just couldn't do it. Something like this.
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VostokIreland wrote: »I don't blame you. I think both the AP and PP pieces respectively aren't bought for looks often. It is a status symbol of having the means to do so.
I am as guilty as my grail is the Rolex President. I just love that President/dictator/millionaire/gangster appeal of it. It's the ultimate naughty boys watch.
I like the looks, but agree, it's a status symbol thing. But you could say that about most watches over €10k.
Realistically for me, around €1000 would be a something to aim for. I always like the Sinn 104.
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Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,217 Mod ✭✭✭✭
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Pretty much all of the CC, but that's cool too. Different strokes and so forth. Though some breathlessly claim him to be the Picasso of watch design, I find Genta a bit of a one trick pony, at least for the watches he's publicly known for. He designed dozens of watches behind the scenes. Though to the Swiss who tend towards traditionalist to a fault or benefit depending on one's position, he was able to slip in a couple of Whoah! watches into their mix and did it twice with damn near the same design. So kudos there.I like the looks, but agree, it's a status symbol thing. But you could say that about most watches over €10k.
I've a soft spot for Sinn myself. Had a chrono of his way back when. Interesting history and pilots watches designed by an actual pilot and the guy tasked with servicing the German military's Heuer BUNDs(and others) for years. I would say his chronos were of a higher quality than the Heuer. More heft to them on the wrist.Realistically for me, around €1000 would be a something to aim for. I always like the Sinn 104.
Realistic grail watch? TBH I don't know and TBH I have had most of my "grails" on my wrist at one time or another and have a few still. Which is a good complaint.
An original Blancpain 50 fathoms would be nice. Better yet one with the LIP dial(they distributed them in France and Spain). An uncle of mine has one(not LIP). Bought it new in the 60's on holiday in Spain*. It's a nice sized watch and very comfortable on the wrist and isn't blingy.
An Omega Marine Chronometer would be nice too. I'd love a Longines Caliber 13ZN Chronograph and at one time I could have stretched to one, but like the gobshite that I am... The first flyback movement and a chrono movement design that makes even Patek chronos look like tarted up steam engines. The prices have gone orbital since. If I told you what I was offered in the mid nineties...
They were the first to develop a wristwatch chronograph caliber and I'd like one of those too. Again the prices...
Though maybe its an age and long time collector thing? but I've had so many dopamine hits at this stage :eek: I'm a lot more circumspect about "grails". The hit passes, or at least any particular grail watch while often still a grail, but one I don't wear nearly as much as I would have thought.
*I mentioned it before. He loves swimming and ruined a succession of watches by forgetting to take them off. My aunt suggested he get a "skindivers watch" and bought one from a shop that catered to sports divers. Thought most of them offered were too bulky/tacky/obvious, got the BP as it was smaller and "it had a nice strap". Still daily wears it, even to bed, now on an 80's spidel bracelet and only had it "cleaned" once. Still wears it swimming in his local baths, even after I told him what it was worth. Yeah.Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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Pretty much all of the CC, but that's cool too. Different strokes and so forth. Though some breathlessly claim him to be the Picasso of watch design, I find Genta a bit of a one trick pony, at least for the watches he's publicly known for. He designed dozens of watches behind the scenes. Though to the Swiss who tend towards traditionalist to a fault or benefit depending on one's position, he was able to slip in a couple of Whoah! watches into their mix and did it twice with damn near the same design. So kudos there.
I've a soft spot for Sinn myself. Had a chrono of his way back when. Interesting history and pilots watches designed by an actual pilot and the guy tasked with servicing the German military's Heuer BUNDs(and others) for years. I would say his chronos were of a higher quality than the Heuer. More heft to them on the wrist.
Realistic grail watch? TBH I don't know and TBH I have had most of my "grails" on my wrist at one time or another and have a few still. Which is a good complaint. An original Blancpain 50 fathoms would be nice. Better yet one with the LIP dial(they distributed them in France and Spain). An uncle of mine has one(not LIP). Bought it new in the 60's on holiday in Spain*. It's a nice sized watch and very comfortable on the wrist and isn't blingy.
An Omega Marine Chronometer would be nice too. I'd love a Longines Caliber 13ZN Chronograph and at one time I could have stretched to one, but like the gobshite that I am... The first flyback movement and a chrono movement design that makes even Patek chronos look like tarted up steam engines. The prices have gone orbital since. If I told you what I was offered in the mid nineties...
They were the first to develop a wristwatch chronograph caliber and I'd like one of those too. Again the prices...
Though maybe its an age and long time collector thing? but I've had so many dopamine hits at this stage :eek: I'm a lot more circumspect about "grails". The hit passes, or at least any particular grail watch while often still a grail, but one I don't wear nearly as much as I would have thought.
*I mentioned it before. He loves swimming and ruined a succession of watches by forgetting to take them off. My aunt suggested he get a "skindivers watch" and bought one from a shop that catered to sports divers. Thought most of them offered were too bulky/tacky/obvious, got the BP as it was smaller and "it had a nice strap". Still daily wears it, even to bed, now on an 80's spidel bracelet and only had it "cleaned" once. Still wears it swimming in his local baths, even after I told him what it was worth. Yeah.
Right, I think I am getting the hang of quoting without pictures now.
With regards to the Blancpain 50 Fathoms; the 50's ones are some of my own personal favourites of all dive watches. I see it as the original, that the Submariner copied. Also it has that cool appeal of Jacques Cousteau; a real tool watch like the Doxa 300t. A 5513 or 5517 are other pieces that appeal; but realistically will always be well out of my reach.
So a vintage 50 Fathoms would be a more realistic grail for me in my dream collection.
The Aqua-Lung no radiation dial on this one is my favourite. I think it looks great on the vintage Tropic strap. Honestly if someone offered me a 2018 one, or this; I would choose this. It just has so much pedigree and history as a dive watch.
What do you think of it Wibbs?
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Blancpain-Aqua-Lung-Fifty-fathoms-watch-No-radiations-Automatic-Rayville-S-A/132663234494?hash=item1ee3584fbe:g:kU4AAOSwC-xaw19P0 -
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I think I'm already wearing mine.
A simple Seamaster AT as per the photo below. I was determined to shout myself for my 40th and knowing that I was only ever going to buy once I was looking for an all purpose watch.
Dressy, not too dressy. Sporty, not too sporty etc....
Very happy with it.
Although, if I was to come into some money I think one of these would be high on the shopping list.
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I think I'm already wearing mine.
A simple Seamaster AT as per the photo below. I was determined to shout myself for my 40th and knowing that I was only ever going to buy once I was looking for an all purpose watch.
Dressy, not too dressy. Sporty, not too sporty etc....
Very happy with it.
I did similar for my 40th and bought myself a 116613LN. I had originally been on a waiting list for my 114060 for one year; which was my planned 40th watch. Partly for sentimental reasons, as the 14060M was my first Rolex piece at 23. But shortly after I received it, I was offered more than I paid for it so sold it to gain the profit. I then used the funds to partly fund my 116613LN. I think many men do the same, 30th, 40th, 50th birthdays etc are landmarks in ones life. My grail is now the 228238 with my 50th being the target for that piece (or before hopefully). Your Seamaster is a lovely piece, great choice; wear it in good health.
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Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,217 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 59144
I certainly wouldn't bitch about Rolex. They are a company with a long and illustrious history and appeared at the birth of the wristwatch and pushed what was seen by many in the industry as a passing fancy and ran with it. Their founder Hans Wilsdorf was a genius on a few levels. Understood engineering and design, understood buyer's needs, spotted great ideas from all over the place before others did, integrated them and marketed them brilliantly. The Steve Jobs of watches in many ways. The Rolex Oyster a perfect example. Contrary to popular it wasn't the first "waterproof" watch, nor the first to feature screw back and front and crown, but it was the first to see the potential of the waterproof watch and with the genius stroke of developing an automatic(they weren't the first there either) took away the inevitable wear and tear on the crowns of non auto sealed cases that required daily winding.While we're bitching about rolex,
Another, lesser noted thing about Rolex is alone among Swiss marques in the Second World War they didn't supply both sides. They stuck fast to the Allied side, Britain in particular, even when it didn't look good for them in the early days and the Germans were buying watches by the truckload. Now a cynic might suggest it was because Britain and her still extant empire was their primary, near only market and there may be something to it, but if it was it seems it was a small part and they supported the Allied war effort throughout, including POWs in occupied territories. The rest of the Swiss marques were happily selling to the Nazi's until the end or more when the Germans ran out of hard currency.
That's another interesting thing oft forgotten today: Up until around the 1960's Rolex was largely unknown outside of Britain and it's Commonwealth. If you read old American watch trade mags there is almost zero mention of them. Same for Europe. UK, Canada, Australia, New Zealand etc was their market. It was a "British" brand as much as a Swiss one in many ways.
But yeah I have a lot of time for Rolex. I suppose like the aforementioned Steve Jobs and Apple it's often their more ardent fans that can rile me up.
Though I will admit a certain silly prejudice that when I think of Rolex, especially the gold ones, I sometimes picture used car salesmen. 
Another example of how individual perceptions and prejudices can be. My dad had a 50's PP Calatrava in rose gold with porcelain dial and because of that I kinda see them as oul lad watches.Mine is a patek of any sort :P Daft or wha? And yet another example of how fashions change. Around 1982/3 he added it among his other watches to the house insurance policy and the best quote he got on value for it was 900-1000 punts. Yep. Today? Maybe add a zero? If not more as it was rose gold and an oddball case.
I do like their 50's chronos. Gorgeous watches, beautifully balanced design and the movement finishing on them is unreal. Though again if given a choice I'd still go for a steel cased Longines 30CH flyback every day of the week. That movement is a work of art and blows the doors pretty much any non rattrapante chrono movement of the 20th century.
Truly oddly, I never really got into Omega. And I dunno why. I had a pre Moon Speedie back in the day, an early 1913 Wristlet of theirs with the crown at 9(which I regret moving on) but for some reason... I would love a collection of their top inhouse 70's Quartz models. Sadly the prices have gone out of my cheapskate range so only have this one. Still it was their first inhouse movement and a cracker it is and looks like no other watch.
An object lesson in listening to your own advice, namely always buy a watch with a bracelet that came with a bracelet. The head cost me under 200 quid and it took five years and long searching to get the damned bracelet which ended up costing the same. DOH!
Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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Like bluefoam I'm also content as things are. Realistically I can't afford to spend >€1000 on any watch.
I wear this almost every day on the farm, and yes I have managed to put a tiny scratch on it, but I enjoy wearing it every day. It is my most expensive watch. If I had a more expensive watch I couldn't justify getting it hacked at work, it would be left in a drawer for the odd bit of weekend use. What fun is that?
If the seat's wet, sit on yer hat, a cool head is better than a wet ar5e.
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Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,217 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 59144
Jaques came to it a little later. It was a French navy request from two Frogmen looking for the perfect dive watch. It had a big military history to it. Pretty much everybody used them at one time or another. The Americans got wind of it and as their testing of different brands went it was one of their favourites. Oddly the Rolex they were so so about. The American military had one issue though, they were told to "buy American"(similar arose with the Speedmaster and NASA. That went as far as congress). So one lad bought the BP's as parts shipped them to the US, said he used a quantity of locally sourced parts(he didn't) and Named them Rayville Tornek(Rayville was a name chosen for the company when the last of the Blancpain family got out and it was bought by a couple of employees. Some French law thing).The_Guvnor wrote: »I also like the Jaques Cousteau pedigree of Blancpain. And that Rolex copied many of the 50 Fathoms features in the Submariner.
I dunno TBH. A few companies got on board with the new diving hobby and at nigh on the same time. Longines, Omega, Rolex as well as BP(of that lot the Longines is the hardest to find. So close once...) and they all shared the same layout of black dial, one way dive time bezel and radium numerals and hands. IIRC the Rolex was the only one with a date(the date window another thing they actually came up with) and of course they held the patent for the screwdown crown at the time.I consider the Submariner as a homage to the original 50 Fathoms really.
The date came later for BP. The 4 positioning seems to have been a "thing" around the mid 60's, but really kicked in by the 70's, especially on divers. Like you say for balance and more legibility. These days with "desk divers" and real diving being all dive computers it's not such an issue, but there was a time not so long ago that if your dive watch wasn't up to par you could end up in real trouble or drowned so they put a lot of thought into how they operated. By the 60's/70's you really see the evolution. Heavy duty cases, the minute and seconds hands being made to stand out, bigger painted orange*. The hour hand wasn't really in play on dives and the seconds hand was visible basically to let you know at a glance your watch was actually running. It's a fascinating subject.What Blancpain got right, and Rolex got wrong; was putting the date at 4 rather than the usual 3, and not having a cyclops lens.
*funny enough it has to be a particular kind of orange(phosphorescent IIRC). Basic orange is one of the colours that looks whiter the deeper you and one of the quickest to do so. Most orange hands on divers these days, even the expensive ones don't have this.
Green is one of the best colours but for some reason very rare to see on divers.Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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Jaques came to it a little later. It was a French navy request from two Frogmen looking for the perfect dive watch. It had a big military history to it. Pretty much everybody used them at one time or another. The Americans got wind of it and as their testing of different brands went it was one of their favourites. Oddly the Rolex they were so so about. The American military had one issue though, they were told to "buy American"(similar arose with the Speedmaster and NASA. That went as far as congress). So one lad bought the BP's as parts shipped them to the US, said he used a quantity of locally sourced parts(he didn't) and Named them Rayville Tornek(Rayville was a name chosen for the company when the last of the Blancpain family got out and it was bought by a couple of employees. Some French law thing).
I dunno TBH. A few companies got on board with the new diving hobby and at nigh on the same time. Longines, Omega, Rolex as well as BP(of that lot the Longines is the hardest to find. So close once...) and they all shared the same layout of black dial, one way dive time bezel and radium numerals and hands. IIRC the Rolex was the only one with a date(the date window another thing they actually came up with) and of course they held the patent for the screwdown crown at the time.
The date came later for BP. The 4 positioning seems to have been a "thing" around the mid 60's, but really kicked in by the 70's, especially on divers. Like you say for balance and more legibility. These days with "desk divers" and real diving being all dive computers it's not such an issue, but there was a time not so long ago that if your dive watch wasn't up to par you could end up in real trouble or drowned so they put a lot of thought into how they operated. By the 60's/70's you really see the evolution. Heavy duty cases, the minute and seconds hands being made to stand out, bigger painted orange*. The hour hand wasn't really in play on dives and the seconds hand was visible basically to let you know at a glance your watch was actually running. It's a fascinating subject.
*funny enough it has to be a particular kind of orange(phosphorescent IIRC). Basic orange is one of the colours that looks whiter the deeper you and one of the quickest to do so. Most orange hands on divers these days, even the expensive ones don't have this.
Green is one of the best colours but for some reason very rare to see on divers.
Fascinating reading, many thanks for that Wibbs. Credit where credit is due; you know your history. One thing that interests me, and you may know the answer to?
Who/when did the clicking bezel come in? I always thought it was odd Rolex never patented it. So maybe they didn't. I know 50's and 60's dive watches often had bi-directional bezels (as did the Turn-0-graph). But when did the 60 click come in first?0 -
Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,217 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 59144
That's a bloody good question TG. Just going from what I've seen the first rotating bezels were on early 1930's pilots watches. Zenith, Helvetia, Longines Hour Angles and the like(the latter could come with lockable bezels). The first one with a click I saw and held in my hand was a later 30's Helvetia pilots watch. I have no idea how many clicks it was though. The guys who commissioned the BP 50 fathoms specified unidirectional* clicks so it sounds like it was most likely a feature on watches they had already seen?The_Guvnor wrote: »Fascinating reading, many thanks for that Wibbs. Credit where credit is due; you know your history. One thing that interests me, and you may know the answer to?
Who/when did the clicking bezel come in? I always thought it was odd Rolex never patented it. So maybe they didn't. I know 50's and 60's dive watches often had bi-directional bezels (as did the Turn-0-graph). But when did the 60 click come in first?
The problem with these kinda questions in the watch game is a) fans of one brand or another will claim it for "their" brand, b) the brand's marketing and advertising won't contradict them and nigh on all brands "histories" have to be taken with a grain of salt as far as claims go. IWC are a charm for this, but they're not alone. Even Patek do it. EG their release of their own "pilot's watch"(more like willie waving in business class watch) a couple of years back. They claimed a "history" in pilots watches, yet they made two(and a pocketwatch). Both never delivered and both to the exact specification of the German air ministry in the late 30's. Rolex tend to play it clever and let their fans make the claims, which they neither confirm or deny. I've found that a fair few "firsts" in watches often came from long dead and obscure brands and later picked up by the bigger boys. Or a load of brands all came out with the same thing at the same time.
Case in point(no pun). Most general histories and sites will say the Rolex Oyster was the first waterproof case and certainly the first screw down back, front and crown, yet here's that setup a decade before that:
But few will have heard of Depollier and their cases unless they go digging. Or NATO straps(that were never labeled as such back then, they're G10 straps) came long in the early 70's, yet there were the exact same straps around in the 1950's and the basic layout has been around since WW1, with no obvious "first" author. Some areas of research are near black holes, at least until recently. EG the Swiss brands quartz efforts in the 1970's and earlier. Patek again of all people, were one of the first to get into electronic timing and all the big boys threw big money and time into developing quartz. Those that today say they refused to get into that sorta thing *sniff* were either shelf companies, or simply to small to afford to join the gang. That doesn't quite suit the mechanical revival "all our watches are authentically handmade by elves in high green Swiss valleys, where they insert soul into each one" though.
*basic dive safety. If the diver did knock the bezel it could only go one way shortening the dive. If it could go either way it could lengthen the perceived dive and then you run out of air.Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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Abdiel Loose Graphology wrote: »Jesus Wibbs are you some sort of horological encyclopedia??? Great info...cheers
I've learned loads since joining this sub. 1 week ago! Yeah, Wibbs is good for the info, but maybe he knows nothing and is completely bullshítting us!
Anyway, if we're going for realistic watches we can afford, I'll go with this:
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Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,217 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 59144
They often couch it ad copy like; "Here's the first pilots watch from IWC/Breitling/Whoever" Implying it's the "first pilots watch", or "when [innovation X] came along [our brand] was at the forefront", or [our brand] made [particular watch type] for such and such a customer", neglecting to mention they weren't the only one, or [our brand] has the most authentic history in [particular watch type]. That sort of thing. Or just plain spoof. Or ignoring history that doesn't suit current fashions. The obvious one being companies rarely mentioning their models of quartz watches that they trumpeted at the time. Even though a large proportion of the reason we even had a Swiss mechanical revival was on the back of a very cheap and cheerful quartz watch, the Swatch. Ruins the Swiss pixies handmade marketing and mechanical watches have a larger markup than quartz and get more return cash with servicing which they've increasingly locked down while ramping up the prices.The_Guvnor wrote: »Also interesting about brands claiming innovations as their own.
Another angle can be claims that can't be backed up as records don't exist. EG Girard Perregaux claim the first wristwatch saying that they made them for the German Navy in the late 1880's. Problem being no record or example at all exists of this and the example they show had a radium dial which simply couldn't have existed before 1912. When Zenith brought out their Extra Special Pilot series they said Louis Bleriot wore one of their watches on his channel crossing. Fine, but the one they show is from 20 years later. Handily it looks more like the new models, rather than the white dialled Trench watch the original would have been. Cartier made the first pilots watch for one A Santos, yet the example they show couldn't be his. Patek often claimed they made the first wristwatch and they most certainly didn't.
Watch journalists, an all too free with facts bunch are happy to regurgitate these legends. Watch journalism is in general a stick your byline to the bottom of a press release because if you don't you wont get into Basel or near the stands of whichever company you gave a less than stellar review on. Then the more ardent fans of companies add to all this.
Sadly I have a face for radio and a voice for moving pictures before the talkies came along.I admire your knowledge of horology. Ever thought of doing a Youtube channel like Armand The Watch Guy? I think many would love to hear your knowledge/reviews of vintage pieces and their history. Regards.Yeah, Wibbs is good for the info, but maybe he knows nothing and is completely bullshing us!
Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,217 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 59144
To follow up above a good example of journalist/fan stuff on the interwebs. A series of pieces about the history of the pilot's watch many so full of holes you could fly a Spitfire through on full emergency war power with room to spare. In this article he outlines/pimps the new for the time Zenith Pilot special edition. Examples of "ah here?".
"In 1909 with a Zenith strapped to his wrist"
Dubious, he did say he usually wore Zeniths but that was a couple of years later. Sounds also like he was an ambassador for the brand. But we can let that slide.
"The watch worn for the Channel crossing boasted a host of features that distinguished it as an aviation tool. This watch possesses the DNA shared with all future pilot watches. The watch offered features conducive to flying: luminous dial and hands for readability, oversized Arabic numerals, a large crown for turning when wearing gloves, a bi-metallic anti-magnetic hairspring and a case that could be attached to the instrument panel."
Luminous dial and hands would have been pretty much impossible in 1909 as radium hadn't been produced in the quantities that ended up in the market yet. Oversized Arabic numerals possibly, but not luminous. Large crown came later. Anti-magnetic hairspring? Nope. That didn't come along until the 20's. Tissot among the first to crack it. It didn't hit the general market until the 50's. I have zero idea what he means regarding can be attached to the instrument panel.
It has fixed ribbon lugs, that originally had the strap stitched on, a feature of this particular design.
The watch in question?
Early 1930's Zenith Special*. Arguably one of the first true "tool watches" as they were usually very big 40 odd mm and completely against the fashion which was for small 30mm or less, mostly Tank watches for men. An extremely popular at the time among pilots design of pilots watch whose origins are murky, but also made by damn near every other Swiss name at the time. Omega, Longines, Doxa, Heuer, Mido, Helvetia and a long list of others. Sometimes referred to as 1928 Luftwaffe type. Another slight problem, the Luftwaffe didn't even exist in 1928...
*the Special looks to have been a purely marketing exercise. I've seen and handled examples(and own an ExtraSpecial) with Special, ExtraSpecial, or nada on the dial and the fit and finish was identical throughout.Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,217 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 59144
Longines brought out a reissue of their vintage example. As they do, and usually pretty accurately(though added date windows...).
Here's my vintage 1934 Zenith indirect centre second example. It lived on the arm of a German pilot in Spain, then France, missed the Battle of Britain, Greece and then Russia.. It's a family piece I've known all my days so no great skill in buying on this one. And my what do you grab if your house is on fire watch.
It's not quite as big as it looks. Camera angle and crap photographer at work. Though it is 42mm, minus the crown. One of the few watches I've had down the years that actually gets noticed by and commented upon by normal people. When I used to wear it in the 90's it really got stares, and whispers debating my sanity. Though if I didn't have one it would defo be one of my grails. Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,217 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 59144
Yeah it needed the radium lume removed alright. Scarily radioactive. Got it sorted twenty years ago. Never going to sell it, so originality, or growing extra eyes? Easy choice. The centre second variants have metal dials and they nearly always go grotty. The old radium lume is a bugger for absorbing moisture and the radiation itself burns the dials. The sub second variants have enamel dials so look as good as the day they were sold(if they avoid cracks).
Pretty much. It's easy to forget that branding to the fore and brand loyalty is a relatively recent thing. In the very early days of the wristwatch the dial was just as likely to have the name of the retailer as much as the name of the manufacturer. Well if you were say a soldier in London in 1915, you'd definitely know of Harrods, but you likely wouldn't have heard of Longines or whoever. Branding would have been more in play in the US, but to the degree of today. Again oul Hans Wilsdorf was thinking ahead. He chose the name "Rolex" because he reckoned it was phonetically simple for speakers of different languages to say and remember, whereas a lot of Swiss brands are not so easy. Buyers would also seek out a certain type of watch. A soldier would look for a "Trench watch" a pilot a "Pilot's watch".The_Guvnor wrote:Also interesting the cathedral hands are shared too. It goes to show that different brands were copying each other even back then. I suppose homages aren't really a new thing then; but we often just think of brands like Steinhart copying Rolex etc. But in reality all watch brands have been doing it from the start.
This particular template - large, luminous black dial, cathedral hands, rotating bezel time indicator, ribbon lugs, large crown - was extremely popular for about a decade, from the late 20's to late 30's, pretty much entirely in mainland Europe and its almost easier to list the brands who didn't produce one(Rolex, PP, the US brands). I've seen a few unbranded ones. Who produced the first or designed the template is unknown at this stage.
Private purchase for the most part. Though I did find out mine was part of a batch purchase for a German buyer and it did end up on the wrist of a Luftwaffe pilot. Because of post WW1 German non militarisation agreements, anything military, including watches was kept hidden, or hidden in plain sight. It's known that German fighter squadrons made bulk purchases of Glashutte and Hanhart chronographs, so it's likely others did similar. I have seen a Czech Air Force example that was was officially stamped and it looked legit. Officially issued watches came later, around 38/39 when the cat was well and truly out of the bag.Would that piece have been issued to the pilot, or would he have had to purchase it himself?
While militaries did issue watches in WW1, they were generally in very small numbers. One reason could be that the officer class, those seen as more likely to need one would be rich enough to buy their own(they were expected to buy quite a lot of their kit). Silver cased good quality 15 jewel Trench watches were around 10-20 English pounds in 1915 so a fair chunk of change(the average working wage was under an English pound per week). It was really WW2 where they were seen as a requirement for the ordinary enlisted working man who might not have had the cash and issued in huge numbers. These days issued watches are back to small numbers as pretty much everyone has a watch or can buy one for buttons, and troops, pilots and the like have far more oversight and coordination from above and accurate time is everywhere.
Going by prices for Helvetia examples(which would have been a mid range, but good brand, well worth a punt for vintage buyers) in France, they weren't cheap. About twice the price of equivalent Art Deco tank dress watches. Examples from Omega and Zenith would be more expensive again. I suppose a couple of grand in today's money. To give some idea a basic issued time only WW2 German DH watch cost the equivalent of around 600-700 euro today.I can imagine it would have been very expensive back in 1934. I suppose pocket watches were the fashion then really, and wristwatches would have been a new thing?
The pocketwatch by the 1930's would have been in major decline. The general switch from pocket to wrist was in full swing by the 1920's. IIRC wristwatch production first overtook pocketwatches around 1920. WW1 had been the prime catalyst in changing the wristwatch from the public perception of a ladies watch into one for men. Though there was a court case in the US where a witness or lawyer, can't recall which, was quizzed in a negative tone by the judge as to why he was wearing a wristwatch and if he was a veteran, so there were still some old guard types around.Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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I think I have mine. Omega seamaster 300 MC. I read daily reviews; visited lunns, weirs, and keanes on different occasions to try it on, I dreamed about it, I was pretty obsessed. Pulled the trigger and I honestly don't miss that 5k, I switch between bracelet and NATO and I still love putting it on every morning.
In saying that....
I'd love a dress watch like a Rolex cellini, think they come in around 14k or so. I'm not aiming for it, I'm pretty content but if I won the lotto or some such..0 -
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