can a garda give you a fixed penalty notice in the post after they said it was a warn

jasonrwc

i got pulled in a few weeks ago for careless driving. the officers kept me there for about 20 minutes and did all the checks in the world they searched my car and both and eventually said it was a warning and drive better in the future then today i get a fixed penalty notice 80 euro and 2 penalty points. This wasn't mentioned at the time at all i was just told to go on my way and be more careful. is this allowed? i thought i would have to be told about it at the side of the road?

how.gareth

jasonrwc wrote: »

i got pulled in a few weeks ago for careless driving. the officers kept me there for about 20 minutes and did all the checks in the world they searched my car and both and eventually said it was a warning and drive better in the future then today i get a fixed penalty notice 80 euro and 2 penalty points. This wasn't mentioned at the time at all i was just told to go on my way and be more careful. is this allowed? i thought i would have to be told about it at the side of the road?

Where they wearing their official hats when they spoke to you?

jasonrwc

no they gut of their car and just talked to me without any hat. just full uniform otherwise

BringBackMick

If they were not wearing their hats this cannot stand in the court of law

jasonrwc

BringBackMick wrote: »

If they were not wearing their hats this cannot stand in the court of law

Really?? I though more so because they never mentioned it to me and said it was a warning would be more of a reason?

ozt9vdujny3srf

jasonrwc wrote: »

Really?? I though more so because they never mentioned it to me and said it was a warning would be more of a reason?

This is why legal advice isn’t allowed...

jasonrwc

Tommy Salmon Nozzle wrote: »

What do you think?

I really don't know that's why I started the thread.

jasonrwc

Tommy Salmon Nozzle wrote: »

This is why legal advice isn’t allowed...

I'm not looking for legal advice I'm asking can they give a warning and them later decide it's going to be a fixed penalty. I assumed they would have had to mention that!

sexmag

BringBackMick wrote: »

If they were not wearing their hats this cannot stand in the court of law

Unfortunately this is why legal advice cannot be given here

Kimbot

jasonrwc wrote: »

I'm not looking for legal advice I'm asking can they give a warning and them later decide it's going to be a fixed penalty. I assumed they would have had to mention that!

If it's a penalty points offence then you should expect points

jasonrwc

Kimbot wrote: »

If it's a penalty points offence then you should expect points

I was the wrong side of a very narrow road because there were cars parked on one side. I didn't think that was an offence.

sexmag

jasonrwc wrote: »

I'm not looking for legal advice I'm asking can they give a warning and them later decide it's going to be a fixed penalty. I assumed they would have had to mention that!

How can you prove other wise?

Did you record the encounter?

If not you've no leg to stand on, your word against there's, you admit you drove dangerously but the guards are liars so you shouldn't be punished?

Sorry mate won't stand up in court

jasonrwc

sexmag wrote: »

How can you prove other wise?

Did you record the encounter?

If not you've no leg to stand on, your word against there's, you admit you drove dangerously but the guards are liars so you shouldn't be punished?

Sorry mate won't stand up in court

I never said I drove dangerously I was passing cars on my own street at about 10 miles an hour that was all I was doing

sexmag

jasonrwc wrote: »

I never said I drove dangerously I was passing cars on my own street at about 10 miles an hour that was all I was doing

jasonrwc wrote: »

I was the wrong side of a very narrow road because there were cars parked on one side. I didn't think that was an offence.

You admited an offense in the eyes of the law, this is why you were pulled over

jasonrwc

I was 20 metres from my own house and had just turned into the street I was doing no more than 10 miles an hour. What i was doing I would not consider careless!!

sexmag

jasonrwc wrote: »

What i was doing I would not consider careless!!

What you and I consider dangerous is irrelevant

jasonrwc

sexmag wrote: »

You admited an offense in the eyes of the law, this is why you were pulled over

No I ddint I never admitted anything I never said I admitted anything I don't think I did commit an offence in anyone's eyes. I really don't know where you got the notion that I said admitted or think I did commit an offence from??

sexmag

jasonrwc wrote: »

No I ddint I never admitted anything I never said I admitted anything I don't think I did commit an offence in anyone's eyes. I really don't know where you got the notion that I said admitted or think I did commit an offence from??

See my post 2 posts up

Sorry it happened to you but that's it, chalk it up to experience, don't believe what you don't get in writing

TallGlass

People are pulling your leg for some reason here. Not sure why. Anyway.

Yes they can. Its bad form to say it's a warning and you'll hear nothing more. But sadly you've got the fine now and it can be done.

If you want to contest it then go to court and have it out. Or take the fine and points and end of story.

Which ever you do. Don't ignore it.

jasonrwc

sexmag wrote: »

See my post 2 posts up

Sorry it happened to you but that's it, chalk it up to experience, don't believe what you don't get in writing

Yea that's all grand but they never mentioned careless driving or anything at the time that's why I'm wondering where it has came from. I thought they would at least have to have said that or alluded to it at the time at least. They said it was a warning and learn from it and move on then I get the notice today.

jasonrwc

TallGlass wrote: »

People are pulling your leg for some reason here. Not sure why. Anyway.

Yes they can. Its bad form to say it's a warning and you'll hear nothing more. But sadly you've got the fine now and it can be done.

If you want to contest it then go to court and have it out. Or take the fine and points and end of story.

Which ever you do. Don't ignore it.

Do you think I should go to a garda station tomoro and see what they have to say or just pay it and forget about it?

Squatman

jasonrwc wrote: »

Do you think I should go to a garda station tomoro and see what they have to say or just pay it and forget about it?

yea, id ask to talk to the garda in question, and check to see if he got his wires crossed. explain the situation, because he probably wont remember you, and say as you said here, that you were executing a turn into your driveway.
also, will you explain the situation here please?

TallGlass

jasonrwc wrote: »

Do you think I should go to a garda station tomoro and see what they have to say or just pay it and forget about it?

Garda can't do anything and well shouldn't do anything about it as it's in the system. You either go court, and explain your position, what was said, Garda could ask it be thrown out, but you won't know. You could get more of fine and more points. What you mention is all hear say about them saying this or that, nothing formal apart from the FPN you've got.

Its up to you, pay fine and its done with. Court and you contest it but no one can tell you how that will go.

jasonrwc

Squatman wrote: »

yea, id ask to talk to the garda in question, and check to see if he got his wires crossed. explain the situation, because he probably wont remember you, and say as you said here, that you were executing a turn into your driveway.
also, will you explain the situation here please?

I turned into my street which is a 90 degree turn about 20 metres up it is another 90 degree turn. So I stopped and waited for a car to pass before I turned In. My street is pretty narrow and there were cars parked on the left so I moved to the right hand side of the road to over take them. I was going really slow but as I overtook one of the parked cars I noticed the squad coming around the corner and stopped they cam forward more and waved me on. When I came alongside them I had to pull into between 3 parked cars they wound down the window and asked what I was doing. I told them that I was overtaking a car. The passenger garda jumped out and asked for my license which I have him then another garda from the back seat got out after about 5 minutes they told me to pull in at the corner because there was a car behind them that cudnt get by. They checked my car tax insurance and did a personal check on me when all that was clear they made me get out of the car and asked me was I caring anything I shouldn't I said no then they asked me to open my car they searched the back and then searched the booth. When it was all clear they said I was lucky and I was just getting a warning and had I learned my lesson. I said yes and they said to drive on. Then I went home and now I got the fine today about 3 weeks later

ED E

Sounds like they saw it as you overtaking into oncoming traffic. If the obstruction is on "your side" you need to yield. How far ahead you should yield is down to interpretation.

jasonrwc

ED E wrote: »

Sounds like they saw it as you overtaking into oncoming traffic. If the obstruction is on "your side" you need to yield. How far ahead you should yield is down to interpretation.

Yea but when I was overtaking they were the other side of a 90 degree turn so unless I can see around corners it would have been impossible to know there was oncoming traffic. I was going slow enough to stop the second saw them so can't see how they could say I didn't yield to them

Sassygirl1999

jasonrwc wrote: »

Yea but when I was overtaking they were the other side of a 90 degree turn so unless I can see around corners it would have been impossible to know there was oncoming traffic. I was going slow enough to stop the second saw them so can't see how they could say I didn't yield to them

sounds like you have been diddled

jasonrwc

Sassygirl1999 wrote: »

sounds like you have been diddled

Sure feels like it. It's no wonder nobody trusts the garda!! He must of been low on numbers last month!!

Sassygirl1999

jasonrwc wrote: »

Sure feels like it. It's no wonder nobody trusts the garda!! He must of been low on numbers last month!!

probably was going to let you off but then changed his mind after a quieter than usual night

jasonrwc

Sassygirl1999 wrote: »

probably was going to let you off but then changed his mind after a quieter than usual night

Yea he got me at 2 in the afternoon so probly tot he had all day to get others and didn't pan out.

4ensic15

jasonrwc wrote: »

Yea that's all grand but they never mentioned careless driving or anything at the time that's why I'm wondering where it has came from. I thought they would at least have to have said that or alluded to it at the time at least. They said it was a warning and learn from it and move on then I get the notice today.

If they said it was a warning, you must have been doing something wrong!

jasonrwc

4ensic15 wrote: »

If they said it was a warning, you must have been doing something wrong!

But can't they then change their mind later that day and say it's not a warning gimme a fine and penalty points without notifying me?

Peregrinus

jasonrwc wrote: »

But can't they then change their mind later that day and say it's not a warning gimme a fine and penalty points without notifying me?

Yes, why not?

What would be the point of imposing a notification requirement? If, instead of sending out the penalty notice on Tuesday they wrote to you saying they had changed their minds and intended to issue a penalty notice, and followed that up with a penalty notice on Wednesday, how would your situation be any better? What would be the point of the advance notification, and how are you any worse off by not having got it?

jasonrwc

Peregrinus wrote: »

Yes, why not?

What would be the point of imposing a notification requirement? If, instead of sending out the penalty notice on Tuesday they wrote to you saying they had changed their minds and intended to issue a penalty notice, and followed that up with a penalty notice on Wednesday, how would your situation be any better? What would be the point of the advance notification, and how are you any worse off by not having got it?

Well it's not advanced notice I'm looking for I'm looking for the to treat it the way they said they were treating it instead of going off the rest of the day not getting enough people for stuff then deciding, you know what that lad earlier it's not gonna be a warning in gonna do him too!!

jasonrwc

At the end of the day I see the difference between what the garda said and what he did as him lying.

Peregrinus

It's called prosecutorial discretion. The authority charged with enforcing a law has a wide measure of discretion about how far to enforce it - do nothing; issue a warning; issue a penalty notice; prosecute in court; etc.

Your beef here is that they indicated that they were inclined to take one of the courses open to them, and then took another. Your position is not particularly strong; there has never been a rule that says authorities must take an instant decision about how to act, and then stick to it for ever. But you might have grounds for objecting if, as a result of their telling you that you would only receive a warning, you acted on that representation and, e.g., disposed of relevant evidence which now leaves you less well-positioned to contest the penalty notice.

Short of something like that, though, you have no general right not to be annoyed, irritated or disappointed by their change of plan.

Peregrinus

jasonrwc wrote: »

At the end of the day I see the difference between what the garda said and what he did as him lying.

Only if the garda knew, when he said he would only issue a warning, that in fact he was going to issue a penalty notice.

A change of mind is not a lie.

sexmag

"Peregrinus wrote: »

".But you might have grounds for objecting if, as a result of their telling you that you would only receive a warning, you acted on that representation and, e.g., disposed of relevant evidence which now leaves you less well-positioned to contest the penalty notice.

Short of something like that, though, you have no general right not to be annoyed, irritated or disappointed by their change of plan.

That's a good point but how does one prove that they no longer have proof they once had? Kind of a paradox

Peregrinus

sexmag wrote: »

That's a good point but how does one prove that they no longer have proof they once had? Kind of a paradox

It's a long shot, I know, but you might have, e.g., a case where guards at the scene of some incident said they would only be issuing a warning, so you didn't ask a bystander who was a witness for their name and address, and now you can't mount a proper defence to the charge because you can't call the witness.

But the question of how you prove that you relied on "it'll only be a warning" to your detriment doesn't arise unless you did, in fact, rely on that to your detriment, and the OP doesn't suggest that he did. I get that he's pissed that the guards said they would do A but then went ahead and did B, but he has no legal remedy unless he is worse off than he would be if they had gone ahead and done B without saying anything at all about A.

Until the OP points to some way in which he is worse off, we don't have to worry about how he proves that he is worse off in that way.

jasonrwc

Peregrinus wrote: »

Only if the garda knew, when he said he would only issue a warning, that in fact he was going to issue a penalty notice.

A change of mind is not a lie.

well if the above isn't true and the garda didn't know he was going to change his mind then some other outside factor that was not there during the incident has changed it on him which is surely wrong?

Hooked

I just stumbled across this thread and can't understand how the gardaí stopped the OP in the first place...

If it was a narrow road, with cars parked in the left lane, and the oncoming car was initially out of sight, around the next corner... what was he/she to do?

Sounds awful petty to me... I'd be fuming

4ensic15

jasonrwc wrote: »

well if the above isn't true and the garda didn't know he was going to change his mind then some other outside factor that was not there during the incident has changed it on him which is surely wrong?

The guards must have information about your other activities, which led to them searching the car. That is what the warning was about, not your bad driving. You should count yourself lucky and forget about the moralising.

jasonrwc

4ensic15 wrote: »

The guards must have information about your other activities, which led to them searching the car. That is what the warning was about, not your bad driving. You should count yourself lucky and forget about the moralising.

Information about my other activities?? I'm a professional that has never been in trouble with the garda before except for a speeding ticket a few years ago. I very much doubt they have any clue who I am!!!

Greybottle

The Gardai have every right to send you the ticket after they give you a warning. It's not nice behavior on their part, but they can still do this.

You have 2 choices: Pay the fine and take the points. Or. Go to court and fight your case.

If you decide to go to court, you can hire a solicitor, but expect to pay €250 minimum, if it's only yourself that he is representing on the day.
You can also represent yourself, but are potentially up against 3 Gardai.

Bring photos of the street as it is on the day of the incident, with cars blocking one side of the road. There is a possibility that the Gardai will not show up in court to give evidence and it will be thrown out. Going to court costs you nothing, but may involve an increased fine or increase in penalty points if you lose.

You could also try to contact the Garda who issued the fine, get him in a conversation and ask what alternative you had to the way you drove and if there is any reason why he felt the need to search you. If you have a clean record and are an #upstanding member of society' like most of us, then he may be less likely to show up in court.

I'm not sure if they can pull the summons or the points anymore, or how reluctant that they are to do this.

Either way, do not ignore the summons and try to engage with the Gardai and judges as politely as you can, which may be difficult if you feel aggrieved by this.

_Brian

Common enough tactic.
It avoids grief and haggling roadside.

Take your details, warn you to drive more carefully in the future, points and fine follow in the post.

If your stopped for an offence that carries points you should always expect they will arrive in the post.

Peregrinus

As a matter of interest, what offence is named on the fixed penalty notice?

jasonrwc

Peregrinus wrote: »

As a matter of interest, what offence is named on the fixed penalty notice?

Driving without reasonable consideration in contrast to section 5 a

Kolido

Genuine question, as I don't drive, but if you get a fine after getting stopped, would the Garda not need to get your signature. Someone mentioned you don't have evidence that the Garda only gave you a warning, but would they have evidence they pulled you over?

tobdom

How long have you your current car? Did you buy it privately?

I wonder if it's somehow your car that caused this 'trouble' for you, known to the Gardai like...... it's not standard practice for them to go searching every car they stop

Peregrinus

OK. This is a fairly minor offence, well below dangerous driving or careless driving. The full offence is "a person shall not drive a vehicle in a public place without reasonable consideration for other persons using the place"; it does require that there should have been some other road user who was inconvenienced or disregarded by your driving.

If the only people present at the scene were you and the guards, if this goes to court it seems to me that the the guards must say that your driving inconvenienced them - e.g. not only that you had crossed the centre line in order to get past some parked cars, but that you did so in circumstances that forced them to slow down or stop, that either you could see them or you crossed the centre line so close to a blind corner that you could not have known if other traffic was approaching.

Be honest, set your feelings of injustice and irritation aside, and imagine that you are the guard prosecuting this case, and that you want a conviction. What are you going to say to convict jasonwrc of driving without reasonable consideration? Well, that's the case you are likely to face if you take this to court.

GM228

Peregrinus wrote: »

It's a long shot, I know, but you might have, e.g., a case where guards at the scene of some incident said they would only be issuing a warning, so you didn't ask a bystander who was a witness for their name and address, and now you can't mount a proper defence to the charge because you can't call the witness.

But the question of how you prove that you relied on "it'll only be a warning" to your detriment doesn't arise unless you did, in fact, rely on that to your detriment, and the OP doesn't suggest that he did. I get that he's pissed that the guards said they would do A but then went ahead and did B, but he has no legal remedy unless he is worse off than he would be if they had gone ahead and done B without saying anything at all about A.

Until the OP points to some way in which he is worse off, we don't have to worry about how he proves that he is worse off in that way.

I'm not sure prove (which would be on the balance of probabilities) is the correct term here.

It's probably more accurate to say you must raise a doubt as to weather such a move prejudiced you, you don't prove it, you just need to raise the doubt and create an uncertainty of a sound prosecution. The prosecutor would then need to rebut.

That's certainly the way it was put to me before when I discussed discretion in a similar manner with my brother who by the way has had one or two people try to raise such as a defence against him, needless to say it was never entertained, to note though in such cases however he insists he did inform them they would receive a FCPN etc.

Now for some devil's advocate, if a Guard does however state he told the person they were to get a caution only then I wonder (and this is really stretching it) could an issue around fair procedures/fndamental fairness/due process arise I wonder?