The vile and sickening rise of homophobic hatred in Russia

JupiterKid

It really makes for angry, sickening and depressing reading. Homophobic hatred is on the sharp rise in Russia, whilst most of the rest of Europe (Ireland included of course) moves towards tolerance, equality and acceptance.

Russia under Vladimir Putin has become a deeply unequal and corrupt society, and bolstered by the rise of the power of the deeply anti-gay Russian Orthodox church, LGBT people have become a major scapegoat in Russian society.

Gay men and lesbian women are routinely violently attacked with impunity, Pride events are banned, police violence against LGBT people is widespread and anti-gay laws are passed. Many believe it is only a matter of time before gay sex is recriminalised in Russia. Stomach churning.

And shame on FIFA (a corrupt organisation IMO) for allowing the forthcoming World Cup to be held in Russia. But what else do you expect from FIFA when there are NO openly gay current soccer players?

Russia already has a huge problem with neo-nazi attacks on ethnic minorities but LGBT people are also in the firing line. According to surveys the vast majority of Russians find LGBT people "repugnant" and "immoral."

We need to step up pressure on the Russian authorities and diplomats on this despicable culture of hatred. We know that Russian republic Chechnya has seen the imprisonment, torture and murder of gay men. Will there be a rounding up and genocide of gay people in Russia? To me, it looks like that might well be the direction it is going. :mad:

What can be done? Can Western leaders denounce the sickening rise of homophobic hatred in Russia? Will they have the guts to do so? I know Trump certainly wont but what about some of the others. What does our own openly gay leader, Leo Varadkar, have to say about this wickedness?

I visited Russia as a 16 year old on a school trip and given the current climate will probably never do so again. Sad.

baby and crumble

There's a group (based in the US) called Voices4 which are campaigning hard on this topic. I'm not aware of any groups campaigning on overseas issues here at the moment.

TBH I refuse to go to countries and areas where there are issues for LGBT individuals. Forget that I really wouldn't feel safe there, considering I present very much as genderqueer and can't play it straight even remotely, I wouldn't be able to give money to that economy. I know, maybe if I were a stronger person I'd go and support local queers by being a bit more open, but you can't relly do everything.

I'd love to see India, Africa and the Middle East, along with Russia but it's just not safe.

Mongfinder General

Most of Eastern Europe hates homosexuality. Poland and Ukraine especially. It’s not as bad as Russia but a lot of lgbt just leave these places and go west.

Spirogyra

The Soccer World Cup will start there next week and the world will be 'fixated'. If competing nations took a stand, collectively, that might 'do something'. It's an absolute disgrace that it's on in Russia to begin with...and next time it's Qatar

Spirogyra

A lot seem willing to turn a blind eye as long as it does not affect them....Is football a straight mans game ? No out Premiership footballers and only a tiny number of male pro's worldwide....there should be more 'noise' about Russia....

JupiterKid

Mongfinder General wrote: »

Most of Eastern Europe hates homosexuality. Poland and Ukraine especially. It’s not as bad as Russia but a lot of lgbt just leave these places and go west.

Not quite true these days.

Poland is not very LGBT friendly by our standards but they did decriminalize gay sex 80 years ago and according to my Polish friends who have gone back there to live attitudes are definitely changing for the better among those under 45, as many emigrated to the West and lived here in the boom years got to know gay people, came out themselves if they were LGBT became more educated and tolerant and took those liberal ideas home with them. It was not too unlike the situation in Ireland where those young Irish who had to emigrate a poor and church dogma dominated Ireland to the big cities in the UK, USA and Western Europe in the 70s and 80s returned in the 1990s with enlightened attitudes.

And EU membership had pushed the post 2004 accession Eastern European countries towards adopting more progressive laws with respect to LGBT equality and rights. Hungary, Slovenia, Slovakia and the Czech Republic and the Baltic states are certainly much more LGBT tolerant than 20 years ago, and are a good bit ahead of Romania and Bulgaria. Compared to Western Europe, they have quite a way to go, but are getting there. Sure Serbia, very homophobic less than a decade ago and a pariah state due to the Balkan wars now has an openly lesbian prime minister.

I’d argue that Greece is a good deal more homophobic than many Eastern European countries, despite its ancient history and being a tourist spot for LGBT travellers. Definitely the most homophobic of the Mediterranean European countries.

No, it’s Russia I’m more concerned about - by a long shot. It seems to be regressing and a deeply cynical, devious and corrupt Putin is using LGBT people as a convenient scapegoat to distract Russians in difficulty from their serious problems. Reminds me of a certain situation in post Weimar Republic Germany where hardship of the masses was used as a vehicle by a certain Mr Hitler as a way to blame the Jews for their problems. and we know where that ended up.

I’m sure places like Belarus, Ukraine and Moldova are no shining beacons of LGBT freedom either. But what is happening in Russia is disgusting.

We have to be very thankful that by living in Western Europe we live in the most socially progressive region on the planet.

But we owe our LGBT brethren suffering in so many parts of the world help and support in fighting against their oppressive regimes. This is the next big battle IMO in LGBT rights, not agonizing over gender neutral toilets.

BoJack Horseman

JupiterKid wrote: »

Can Western leaders denounce the sickening rise of homophobic hatred in Russia?

Rise?

If there was a rise it was years ago & homosexual hatred is probably at a fairly high plateau by now.
You can't be just learning about this now?

"Western leaders" aren't a hive mind.

The 40 or so nations comprising the "West" will criticise about as much as they do regarding the 150 other world nations who similarly have a less than stellar record on gay rights.

JupiterKid

https://ilga.org/downloads/2017/ILGA_WorldMap_ENGLISH_Overview_2017.pdf

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Rise?

If there was a rise it was years ago & homosexual hatred is probably at a fairly high plateau by now.
You can't be just learning about this now?

"Western leaders" aren't a hive mind.

The 40 or so nations comprising the "West" will criticise about as much as they do regarding the 150 other world nations who similarly have a less than stellar record on gay rights.

I’m well aware that homophobia has been rife in Russia for quite a while now as are brutal racist attacks by now-nazi thugs but it seems to be escalating even further. Look at what’s been going on Chechnya - a part of Russia - recently.

I know Western leaders aren’t a hive mind. But I suppose they care more about Russia’s oil and gas reserves and doing deals with Putin and Co. than human rights abuses in his country. It’s predictable but despicable. But surely one or two leaders could take a stand? If Merkel or Trudeau or Macron or our own - himself gay - Leo could criticize Putin over his despicable regime of LGBT persecution - than perhaps the media would pick up on it and something might happen.


Here’s an IGLA map of the state of LGBT rights globally in 2017.

https://ilga.org/downloads/2017/ILGA_WorldMap_ENGLISH_Overview_2017.pdf

Ten of Swords

Criticism from EU leaders won't help the situation at all, the 'West' are portrayed as ideological enemies of traditional Russian values so everything that is said about Russia can be dismissed as foreign propaganda - this happens all time time on a huge number of issues.

If the situation is to change then that change has to happen from within Russia, that's the only way it will happen. I was talking to my partner about this at the height of the situation in Chechnya and he said there are no gay role models (either in mainstream popular culture or a strong political leader) for people to look up to and rally behind so it's therefore best for everyone to keep their heads in the sand and use the LGBT community for scapegoating.

The only other way for change to come about from within is for something so horrific to happen that it galvanizes public sentiment, that's what happened in Ireland during the 80s. Frankly if the atrocities in Chechnya don't get peoples attention then nothing will.

I was really hoping there would be some sort of public backlash against homophobia after the murder of Vladislav Tornovoy a few years ago (23 year old who came out to his friends believing he could trust them but instead they spent hours beating him, torturing him with broken glass and finally killing him with a brick) but nothing changed and it was quickly forgotten about

maork1

I'm Irish but have lived in Poland for a fairly considerable amount of time. I lived in Warsaw so it may have been different to the rest of Poland but I had no worries whatsoever being LGBT in Warsaw. It was the same as in Ireland at least in my experience.

I've never been to Russia so couldn't comment on that.

JackTaylorFan

baby and crumble wrote: »

I'd love to see India, Africa and the Middle East, along with Russia but it's just not safe.

Yeah, one of the things I've always wanted to do is the Trans Siberian Express. In fact, me and my friend (straight cis guy) talked about it recently (apparently, it's something he has always wanted to do as well) and then I told him why even though I'd love to make the trip with him someday, the area just isn't safe. I think he understood well enough, but was like "Ah well, guess I'll do it myself then." I'll be fine kinda thing. Feels crap to not be able to that, but it's just too dodgy an area for me, even if most people would never guess to look, still the idea of being called-out for being a transwoman in that country (Russia) is horrifying.

BoJack Horseman

JupiterKid wrote: »

But surely one or two leaders could take a stand? If Merkel or Trudeau or Macron or our own - himself gay - Leo could criticize Putin over his despicable regime of LGBT persecution - than perhaps the media would pick up on it and something might happen.

Merkel is a personal friend of Vlad (insofar as he has any politician friends) as Putin worked for years in the DDR.

Germany & Russia are very close on business & Germany is a reluctant MH17 sanction participant.
In truth, Berlin is closer to Moscow's geo-political orbit than it is Washington's..

Macron was in Russia a week ago for a state visit!
His token criticism while there was directed at Russia's media.

Neither are going to attack Russia over its treatment of homosexuals..

Canada is an important country, but literally no one takes Trudeau seriously..... And as for Leo, well... Russia doesn't care about powerless tiny Ireland.

Alas there is no international 'white knight' for LGBT people in Russia

baby and crumble

JupiterKid wrote: »

This is the next big battle IMO in LGBT rights, not agonizing over gender neutral toilets.

Whislt I agree wholeheartedly on your overall post - solidarity with our community all over the world is really important - please don't minimise or trivialise issues that still exist here for members of our community. I pretty much don't go to public bathrooms anymore, unless I know there's a neutral one I can go to, or my wife or a female friend is with me. I have purposefully stayed in cubicles way longer than I need to because I wanted to leave when the room was empty.

And I've nevr experienced actual violence in toilets, just verbal abuse.

It might not be an issue you ever have to worry about, but it IS one I do.

Spirogyra

That's really sad Baby and Crumble....thanks for sharing. Has the whole 'misnomer' around Transgender bathroom rights made things worse or were you always a bit anxious?.

368100

Mongfinder General wrote: »

Most of Eastern Europe hates homosexuality. Poland and Ukraine especially. It’s not as bad as Russia but a lot of lgbt just leave these places and go west.

Never knew that

JupiterKid

baby and crumble wrote: »

Whislt I agree wholeheartedly on your overall post - solidarity with our community all over the world is really important - please don't minimise or trivialise issues that still exist here for members of our community. I pretty much don't go to public bathrooms anymore, unless I know there's a neutral one I can go to, or my wife or a female friend is with me. I have purposefully stayed in cubicles way longer than I need to because I wanted to leave when the room was empty.

And I've nevr experienced actual violence in toilets, just verbal abuse.

It might not be an issue you ever have to worry about, but it IS one I do.

No offense against your difficulties baby and crumble which I appreciate may be problematic for you, but at least we LGBTs can live in a country where we are not in imminent danger of being jailed or persecuted, I strongly feel that solidarity with oppressed LGBT people around the world is very important. We live in the most socially liberal part of the world and have the luxury to complain about some final remaining issues - where in other places gay men and women are beheaded or thrown off buildings.

Veteran LGBT activist Pete Thatchell has been tirelessly campaigning for oppressed LGBT people in deeply anti-LGBT countries and to me he is a complete hero. He is doing real work with his lobbying and not tied up in virtue signaling.

JackTaylorFan

JupiterKid wrote: »

Veteran LGBT activist Pete Thatchell has been tirelessly campaigning for oppressed LGBT people in deeply anti-LGBT countries and to me he is a complete hero. He is doing real work with his lobbying and not tied up in virtue signaling.

Thatchell is absolutely fearless.

baby and crumble

I never said we shouldn’t prioritize campaigning for our community around the world. I 100% agree with you that it’s the next “big” campaign we should all be involved in. All I said was it’d be nice for something that does effect my mental health and standard of living- and the physical safety of others who are transitioning- to not be minimized and rejected as somewhat frivolous. It’s not frivolous.

I just realized I probably derailed the thread so I’ll leave it there, apologies.

dr.fuzzenstein

To my mind there is a general right-wing backlash in the world, it's like the knuckle-draggers of the world have united combined with a sharp 30-40 points fall in the average IQ.
If you look at the forces behind Trump, Brexit, UKIP, BDL, AfD, the Nazi governemnts in Austria and many Eastern block countries, etc, it really is very worrying.
And to me it also nicely shows up how sexits, racist, homophobic, xenophobic (the technical term is cnut) vast swathes of the population are.
To me there is no excuse. I don't care what the above assholes and slimeballs use as an excuse. But if you are a hateful piece of sh*t and you try to hide it behind "genuine" concern, you ain't fooling anyone.
You simply are a hateful asshole.
A very worrying piece of reading:

https://newrepublic.com/article/147102/opportunistic-rise-europes-far-right

My mother is 80 years old and she is horrified, because as a child she saw the outcome of what happens when room-temperature IQ troglodytes take over the world.
It's like 20-30% of the worlds population had their brains replaced by sh*t and I cannot figure out why.
To see this ugly and hateful side of humanity is very saddening. Homo Sapiens is a hateful violent, small-minded, selfish creature and a savage and dangerous child-race.

Spirogyra

https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2018/06/14/fifa-world-cup-russia-gay-fan-brain-injuries-brutal-attack/ Amazing how 'brazen' they seem to be, in attacking 'supposedly' lgbtq 'foreign fans'. I'd have thought they would be a little but more careful with non-Russians, not wanting to 'get a bad' name, cause diplomatic problems etc but it appears not.

Sadly too many people appear just not to care.

I've always been a sports fan but they world cup should never have gone to Russia, has 'ruined it' for me as a spectacle...

Egypt training in Chechnya https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/11/sports/mo-salah-egypt-chechnya.html

igCorcaigh

They arrested Peter Tatchell.

igCorcaigh

igCorcaigh wrote: »

They arrested Peter Tatchell.

Released on bail now.

JupiterKid

Pete Thatchell is one of my heroes.

He’s been tirelessly campaigning for LGBT rights since about 1970, first focusing his efforts on the inequalities and homophobic hatred in the UK, then turning his attention to the AIDS/HIV health crisis amongst the gay male community in the 1980s and early 1990s and in latter years drawing world media attention to horrific homophobia around the world.

He has so much drive and energy, and just never stops. He is a real asset to the LGBT community.

Disgusting what is happening in Russia but absolutely not surprised. Corruption brought the games to Russia, as it will to Quatar in 2022. Shame on FIFA!

Spirogyra

There doesn't appear to be even a pretence of 'normality' here. The world looks the other way.....

AllForIt

JupiterKid wrote: »

Pete Thatchell is one of my heroes.

He’s been tirelessly campaigning for LGBT rights since about 1970, first focusing his efforts on the inequalities and homophobic hatred in the UK, then turning his attention to the AIDS/HIV health crisis amongst the gay male community in the 1980s and early 1990s and in latter years drawing world media attention to horrific homophobia around the world.

He has so much drive and energy, and just never stops. He is a real asset to the LGBT community.

Disgusting what is happening in Russia but absolutely not surprised. Corruption brought the games to Russia, as it will to Quatar in 2022. Shame on FIFA!

I agree - he's some gutsy character and the gay male community particularly owe a lot to him. And some of the abuse he comes under is shocking - one poster on the Athiest & Agnostic forum basically called him a scumbag and pedo sympathizer not too long ago. Pathetic.

Glad to see he was released shortly after the arrest.

JupiterKid

Thatchell also wrote a groundbreaking gay safe sex guide book, entitled Safer Sexy (with very explicit but tasteful and, frankly, necessary photography) published in 1994.

As a still closeted 19 year old in his second year of university, I remember buying a copy of this book in Waterstones. The look of pure disgust in the shop assistant’s face as she got a copy from behind the counter to give to me, but I didn’t flinch and was quite defiant. Remember that this was just about a year after decriminalisation and homophobia and general ignorance here was rife. I learned a lot from it and it helped keep me safe but also have great fun with other guys. :cool:

IMO Pete Thatchell deserves a knighthood.

JackTaylorFan

Not an easy read

https://www.gaystarnews.com/article/a-survivor-of-chechnyas-anti-gay-purge-has-just-been-kidnapped-in-russia/#gs.fftqva0

Ten of Swords

A teenager was convicted under the Russian laws regarding promoting homosexuality among minors yesterday.

The 16 year old posted pictures of partially clothed men on his VK page (Russian Facebook) last month. The teen had previously submitted a number of applications to the Biysk city authorities to hold a pride parade, all of which were denied. It it thought this is why he was targeted. The Russian LGBT Network provided him with a lawyer but he was not permitted to consult with him when being charged so he took the decision not to testify at his hearing. Although the hearing was public his friends were also barred from entering.

He was handed a fine of 50,000 rubles (about €650)

https://lgbtnet.org/en/newseng/schoolchild-was-found-guilty-propaganda-homosexuality-among-minors-and-fined-50-000-rubles

Spirogyra

Turkey,another place where it's very sad to see they way things have gone....

Ten of Swords

I found this video when I was looking into that teenagers conviction a bit more. He put this video up a week ago (before his court appearance). Nobody took much notice of it then but it's getting a lot of hits now. He's a clever guy and speaks very articulately. I imagine his student activism drove the city authorities mad. It's a shame they would try to punish someone like this.

Video has subtitles.

JupiterKid

The thing to remember is that Russia is not in any way a democracy and that corruption and abuse of power are rife. Any sort of political, social or media dissent with Putin and his cronies is brutally oppressed, and sadly the LGBT community is in the direct firing line.:(:mad:

That young man and other LGBT rights activists are very brave to stand up to those corrupt power wielding homophobes.

Ten of Swords

On Thursday (Aug 30th) 15 countries, including Ireland, invoked the rarely used Vienna Mechanism of the OSCE in an attempt to force Russia to answer questions regarding the LGBT purge in Chechnya.

The OSCE have 2 human dimension mechanisms in place, the first being the Vienna Mechanism which allows participating states to raise questions and receive answers regarding human rights violations, the second is called the Moscow Mechanism which allows teams of independent specialists/experts to be deployed to the territory of any OSCE member state to assess the human rights situation first hand.

Here is the statement in full as reported by the US mission to the OSCE. The signatories are Canada, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Iceland, Ireland, Latvia, Lithuania, the Netherlands, Norway, Sweden, the United Kingdom and the United States
https://osce.usmission.gov/human-rights-abuses-in-chechnya-15-osce-countries-invoke-vienna-mechanism/

Russia has 10 days to respond to the questions posed

1. What steps have been taken by the federal authorities to ensure Chechen officials abide by the Russian Federation’s OSCE commitments?

2. How have Russian federal authorities investigated allegations of violations and abuses reportedly committed against actual or perceived LGBTI persons, and how have they arrived at the conclusion (as repeated by Russian authorities) that no such violations or abuses have occurred and that no LGBTI persons exist in Chechnya?

3. What steps have been taken by the federal authorities to ensure the ability of civil society and media actors to freely document and report, without reprisal, on human rights concerns in Chechnya, in particular the human rights organization, Memorial?

4. How have Russian federal authorities investigated the fate of each of the 27 individuals who were reportedly extrajudicially executed by Chechen authorities in Grozny in January 2017?

An explanation of the Vienna and Moscow Mechanisms
https://www.osce.org/odihr/human-dimension-mechanisms

Ten of Swords

I was saddened to hear that Russian human rights activist Lyudmila Alexeyeva passed away at the weekend aged 91. I mentioned her previously in a post a number of years ago when she was nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize.

She was outspoken about many human rights issues and was very critical of the anti-LGBT laws in Russia. She worked tirelessly for more than 50 years, at great personal cost, and was one of the last 'Soviet Dissidents' still active.

AnSliabhCorcra

I know this thread might be a little aged at this time but I thought I'd throw in my experiences of going school, college, living and working in Russia.

Living now in Cork and looking at Russia from the outside in, the issue of being gay (I am gay myself) in Russia is progressively getting worse; Russians might see this as natural because the country has/had demographic issues (aging population, overpopulated by women and 'not enough men') and homosexuals are seen as a threat to procreation (and in turn, the survival of Russian society). For a westerner, that might sound like bile and you might presume that people wouldn't take that seriously, but in Russia, it is taken seriously because the government holds this stance also.

Indeed, the terminology is also interesting. In Russian, the word for 'straight' is натурал (which means 'natural') and 'gay' is нетрадиционый (non-traditional).

I had no gay friends living in Vladimirskaya Oblast' (region to the east of Moscow, about 300km) I remember in 2006 on my 17th birthday a group of 4 straight friends decided to surprise me on my birthday and take me to Moscow to a club called Tri Ob'yezany which was a massively famous gay club in Moscow. What they didn't realise is that it was not my scene but still, we had a great time. These 4 friends are all 'very' straight and in fact, when they found out I was gay - we didn't speak or communicate for about a year because of it. Any way, we took the late night train into Moscow's Yaroslavski train station and from there, we took a taxi to the club; there was no problem asking a taxi driver to take us to a gay club, there was no yobs waiting outside the club, it wasn't underground and hidden; in fact there were 3 or 4 floors in the club and it was absolutely packed full. Now, in 2019 - I would not DARE take a taxi to such a place and I would be very aware of the fact that the risk of being attacked in the vicinity of the club would be very high. I've just googled it and it seems it has since been closed down. You can do a google search for "три обезьяны клуб" for videos on youtube or pictures of what it once was.

I then went to university in Tver' (North West between Moscow and St. Petersburg) and again - I encountered no sexuality related problems. Infact, I even met an openly trans girl one night at a drunken karaoke bar. Of course, never in my life living in Russia would I have been openly gay or outwardly so but at university, I did have gay friends at the university and even some who were open to their parents etc. It was 'fine'. In the case of my friends, their families were not happy about it, but they were not happy because of how society would make my friends live their lives. In deed, one good friend of mine actually married a lesbian girl just so that their internal passport stated that they were married. My friend was under a lot of pressure at work and even by officials for not being married. This, back then, was deemed 'strange' by society.

When I was finishing up university, I began working in a school as a classroom assistant. Now in Russia of 2019, this would not be allowed as I would pose a risk of propagandating towards minors due to my sexuality.

It is an absolute mess.

I am sorry I have rambled on! If you want any more stories or adventures, I'll happily oblige.

AnSliabhCorcra

By the way, in the event that any of you are interested.

Back in the 90s and early 2000s, one of Russia's biggest bands Ruki Vverkh had a top hit song about a relationship with a trans/cross-dresser person. (song name: A on tebya tseluyet - And he's kissing you) Every Russian teenager of the 90s and early 2000s listened to Ruki Vverkh and they're still going today. The video to the song is quite good if you are interested:

I can't imagine such a video coming out in modern day Russia.

AnSliabhCorcra

Or if you are ready for a real Russian experience. Prepare yourselves.

1989's Pink Evening by Yuriy Shatunov (who had concert in Dublin just 2 years ago!).

AllForIt

I don't think general society, in this case Russian society, has as much of a problem with gender dysphoria as they do with homosexuality. That might change if the trans activists force the issue which is highly unlikely to happen in Russia anytime soon.

Ten of Swords

David France's documentary Welcome to Chechnya was very well received at Sundance earlier this week.

HBO have purchased the rights to it and are due to show it later this year, I really want to see it

Here is the Q&A with the crew after the screening at Sundance

https://www.welcometochechnya.com